Driving Handling, or How to "get" it

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So, I have seen many folks complain about driving handling being either wonky or hot garbage, bit hyperbolic but it is serviceable. I hope this here will help other people get over the rather wonky driving in the game and enjoy the driving a lot more because trust me it makes the driving better. Sometimes even fun when you know this.

Here is how to become a pro at driving cars in CP2077:
Ignore the wheels. They are irrelevant to car handling. See the front wheels turn? Ignore them. Pretend they don't exist.
Imagine the car as if it is on a spinning platter, or a record as it were. It spins at the center but ONLY when the vehicle moves. So it is very much like a record!
Try it at slow speeds while looking at the car from above and you'll see the illusion of wheels fall away.

Once I got the hang of this I actually got stupid good at driving the cars but when I get hung up on the front wheels being there for steering I end up messing up pretty much instantly. You see just like with a record, the whole car spins. Meaning the front of it just gets flung around much faster than the center. Simply because the car turns slowly so you turn it more, but because the turning is happening EXACTLY at the center of the car it ends up going out of control.

See in a record the outside spins much faster than the center simply because of the distance traveled around the center point. This is exactly the case with Cars in Cyberpunk 2077, and why it feels like bikes handle better. Because the "outside of the circle" is much closer to the center.

So yeah, cars in CP2077 don't handle like cars but spinning records. Which is why they handle wonkily especially if you drive a car in real life. I only figured this out by accident when for some reason driving broke and my car started rotating around at the center point on the spot which made everything click into place.
 
This is exactly what is happening.. The cars DO NOT steer realistically!! To paraphrase the OP: imagine a vertical metal rod straight down through the middle of the car. When you turn the car to the right (D), the car just rotates clockwise around the axis of this metal rod. Another way to visualize this: When you turn right, the front wheel are angled to the right like this
( / /). At the same time, the rear wheels are angled to the LEFT like this ( \ \). So the front of the car goes right and the rear goes left. That is NOTHING like real world car physics!!! It's no wonder that the car handling is so awful. Maybe they think all cars will have 4 wheel active steering in 2077. No body who is used to driving a car in 2020 would be able to drive something with 4 wheel active steering. It sort of reminds me of what it was like to drive a military bomb loader. It's a small, low vehicle (maybe 8-10 feet long and 3-4 feet wide) It's only a few feet tall and IT HAS REAR WHEEL STEERING!!! Talk about something hard to get used to... They really need to learn something about real world car physics and steering geometry.
 
4 wheel steering as a side effect of the entire car just rotating is kind of hilariously bad. It doesn't even seem intentional since rear wheels don't exactly move to show this. That would be one way to make it at least less weird in universe.

But maybe if the team had time to actually finish the game it wouldn't be the case.
 
It feels like a lot of the cars also have front wheel drive for some reason. The tires in front anchor and PULL the car forward, rather than the back wheels pushing it while the front are operated by the steering wheel. It's a really REALLY bizarre feeling to handle these vehicles, even with the new steering sensitivity. It feels like that setting is a bandaid over the real issue, that being, car physics are just backwards in this game, they don't know how to make them operate like real world automobiles.
 
It feels like a lot of the cars also have front wheel drive for some reason. The tires in front anchor and PULL the car forward, rather than the back wheels pushing it while the front are operated by the steering wheel. It's a really REALLY bizarre feeling to handle these vehicles, even with the new steering sensitivity. It feels like that setting is a bandaid over the real issue, that being, car physics are just backwards in this game, they don't know how to make them operate like real world automobiles.
They feel that way because they are indeed front-wheel drive cars and are intended to be so. For example Maimai Thornton Galena, Thornton Colby C125 and there's more and it even looks like they made the wrong fix to certain car in patch 1.3 making it rear-wheel drive when it's real life counterpart is Cadillac, which went front-wheel drive in 1967 with that year Cadillac Eldorado.

There's famous scene in movie the Terminator with 1977 Cadillac Eldorado:

Notice the drift when they come out from the parking lot. Can't do that with movie tires on FWD car, stunt driver had actually push it, but yeah, that's how it works. I would hate if CDPR fixed the wrong thing here, because for those on keyboard, with limited ability to counter steer FWD cars are the way to pull cool tricks like that.

Now, I don't know what sort of cars you have driven but for my experience car handling is exceptionally well done for this sort of game. You can do even some tricks like with real cars depending of if they are FWD, RWD or AWD. FWD drifting is perhaps something bit exotic in countries where there's no snow and ice but common in countries in Northern Europe where I live.

For RWD cars, game has plenty of options starting with Archer Hella V has. With patch 1.3 there's much less steering lag than with 1.23 and I have absolute loved going 140 with that. In-game nightime in North Watson, needs a bit help from downhill to get that 140 (might be because of I had few bullet holes in mine though) but absolutely great experience when you get it in there at least from dashboard perspective.
 
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They feel that way because they are indeed front-wheel drive cars and are intended to be so. For example Maimai Thornton Galena, Thornton Galena C125 and there's more and it even looks like they made the wrong fix to certain car in patch 1.3 making it rear-wheel drive when it's real life counterpart is Cadillac, which went front-wheel drive in 1967 with that year Cadillac Eldorado.

There's famous scene in movie the Terminator with 1977 Cadillac Eldorado:

Notice the drift when they come out from the parking lot. Can't do that with movie tires on FWD car, stunt driver had actually push it, but yeah, that's how it works. I would hate if CDPR fixed the wrong thing here, because for those on keyboard, with limited ability to counter steer FWD cars are the way to pull cool tricks like that.

Now, I don't know what sort of cars you have driven but for my experience car handling is exceptionally well done for this sort of game. You can do even some tricks like with real cars depending of if they are FWD, RWD or AWD. FWD drifting is perhaps something bit exotic in countries where there's no snow and ice but common in countries in Northern Europe where I live.

For RWD cars, game has plenty of options starting with Archer Hella V has. With patch 1.3 there's much less steering lag than with 1.23 and I have absolute loved going 140 with that. In-game nightime in North Watson, needs a bit help from downhill to get that 140 (might be because of I had few bullet holes in mine though) but absolutely great experience when you get it in there at least from dashboard perspective.
The issue is, the reason I noticed that was just because of how wonky the cars still control, like they're not... the way the front wheels anchor and pull the car along defies the actual physics that should be at play given the car's shape and weight. All the traction is in the front and the back wheels tend to have ZERO, which isn't the case with tires and wheels. Just because something is FWD doesn't mean that it can only grip the road in the front. The way they've been designed in this game, there's an excessive amount of fishtailing going on, and turning down the sensitivity only makes handling heavier cars more difficulty while the fishtailing issue still persists.

It seems largely stylistic too so that the cars "feel" different, but that does mean it limits their use if you can't control them at all. Take the Quadra Turbo-R 740, for example. It's awful to drive that thing around, the compact design of the city just doesn't give this thing room to maneuver for how it fans itself out all the time. Compared to another super-fast car, the Rayfield Caliburn handles remarkably better, even at high speeds. They also both showcase the really strange way the Red Engine is coded to handle acceleration and deceleration. The turbo has a lot of get-up and GO to it, but it almost comes to a dead stop the second the break is let off, despite the face that like the Caliburn, it should carry its momentum a bit more before losing so much speed. At some point, they really need to completely overhaul the vehicle movement and handling in this game. Luckily, there's a lot of mods on Nexus that could probably point them i the right direction for that.
 
Just because something is FWD doesn't mean that it can only grip the road in the front.
From my little experience with FWD little european sport cars (like ford XR2i, GT Turbo, 205 GTI, Golf GTI/G40 or Corrado G60), if you accelerate "too much" (no need to say "full") in a bend, it doesn't turn not at all, you go straight, directly into the sidewalk (and you will go buy new front tyres/aluminum rims the next day).

And for the Quadra (the Vtec one), it's awesome to drive in first person. For me at least and with a controller obviously :)
For a game where driving is not the goal, it's really, really well done, in my opinion.

Data base : Quadra Turbo-R 740
"But there was a downside: the Turbo-R rode like a wild stallion, ready to buck unskilled drivers right out of the saddle. Only a real carjock could untap its potential. Amateur adrenaline junkies typically wound up losing control, hurting both themselves and their shiny, new Quadra."
 
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It feels like a lot of the cars also have front wheel drive for some reason. The tires in front anchor and PULL the car forward, rather than the back wheels pushing it while the front are operated by the steering wheel. It's a really REALLY bizarre feeling to handle these vehicles, even with the new steering sensitivity. It feels like that setting is a bandaid over the real issue, that being, car physics are just backwards in this game, they don't know how to make them operate like real world automobiles.
Curious, why do you state this as "for some reason"
If I were to hazard a guess also our real world has much more front wheel drive vehicles than rear wheel drives ones. So it would seem logical from that point of view. At the very least in the EU its extremely common for the 'affordable' vehicle.
And from the lore of the game many cars still fall into that category, completely, or by their core design.
Thorntons, Galena, Archer, even the Mizutani M22 is still an affordable vehicle in CP-lore.
The Quadra's and Caliburn/Aerothingy are the most notable rear wheel pedigree from what I see.
I have paid virtually zero attention to vans or that roadboat btw ...
 
Honestly, and this is just my opinion. If someone wants to enjoy driving in the game, and thinks that the default driving physics is distracting, then they really need to install one of the driving mods. Some of them are quite good, and also tweakable.
 
The issue is, the reason I noticed that was just because of how wonky the cars still control, like they're not... the way the front wheels anchor and pull the car along defies the actual physics that should be at play given the car's shape and weight. All the traction is in the front and the back wheels tend to have ZERO, which isn't the case with tires and wheels. Just because something is FWD doesn't mean that it can only grip the road in the front. The way they've been designed in this game, there's an excessive amount of fishtailing going on, and turning down the sensitivity only makes handling heavier cars more difficulty while the fishtailing issue still persists.

From my little experience with FWD little european sport cars (like ford XR2i, GT Turbo, 205 GTI, Golf GTI/G40 or Corrado G60), if you accelerate "too much" (no need to say "full") in a bend, it doesn't turn not at all, you go straight, directly into the sidewalk (and you will go buy new front tyres/aluminum rims the next day).
Speed is always a factor but ability to drift or control slide with FWD cars is important for that factor IRL, depends how good differential lock is and how it has been set up. I'm bit surprised to see Peugeot 205 GTI on that list having a bit of experience with that back in the day. Not sure if anything like that would be easily sold as road legal these days (it had nothing in common with other 205's but 205 badge LOL), but you could turn that thing on a dime if you knew what you were doing. :p
It's greatest enemy was perhaps wet tarmac, not because car couldn't handle that, but ride was so good that it could trick driver to false sense of security and not picking up proper lines regarding speed and of course going to turn with wrong line and car would end up understeering in situation like that. Snow and ice are certain ways easier as there's always bumps, tire noise that comes into cabin etc. that gives sense of speed.

Most cars I have driven aren't anything that exotic and have that weight balance, but going fast with FWD on snow or ice, if I put car on slide I do exactly the thing @gakusangi described as unrealistic, find front wheels grip spot with throttle, use front as anchor as you say, and eliminate fishtail with front traction, what is needed to do with steering wheel depends how differential lock on front wheels work and you adjust according to that.

I'm not sure about terminology used, traction refers specifically for energy transferred from engine to wheels. In front-wheel driven car there can't be any traction on rear wheels because they aren't connected to engine. You can't compensate for fishtailing on FWD car by putting more energy on rear wheels as they are not connected to engine. No offence, but what you described as against the laws of physics, is something I don't understand, are you sure you don't mean grip?

It seems largely stylistic too so that the cars "feel" different, but that does mean it limits their use if you can't control them at all. Take the Quadra Turbo-R 740, for example. It's awful to drive that thing around, the compact design of the city just doesn't give this thing room to maneuver for how it fans itself out all the time. Compared to another super-fast car, the Rayfield Caliburn handles remarkably better, even at high speeds. They also both showcase the really strange way the Red Engine is coded to handle acceleration and deceleration. The turbo has a lot of get-up and GO to it, but it almost comes to a dead stop the second the break is let off, despite the face that like the Caliburn, it should carry its momentum a bit more before losing so much speed. At some point, they really need to completely overhaul the vehicle movement and handling in this game. Luckily, there's a lot of mods on Nexus that could probably point them i the right direction for that.
Since you mention mods and just to be sure. Is your platform PC and is your input method game controller or keyboard? I'm also curious about game version, are you on 1.3 patch?

That matters because console version driving physics wasn't that similar to PC at least to version 1.06 which version I finished my first playthrough. I didn't played game again until version 1.23 and based on what I read from the forums, PC and console version driving physics, including input lag was similar on that version.

Quadra Turbo-R 740 is very interesting example, as on XBox One X it's absolutely joy to drive, it this weren't story driven game, too good for its power but then, I'm not flooring it all the time but your comparison to Caliburn is off because Quadra is rear-wheel drive and Caliburn is all-wheel drive.

I do agree that cars have weird aspects and some of them are how they lose forward momentum and weight transfer feels bit different in 1.3 compared to 1.23 too. Timing when using handbrake in cornering feels far more important but then it might be that I'm just going faster in 1.3 because of better minimap.

Something is off though. I haven't been able to pin down how forward momentum really works in game, some cars lose it very fast like you say, that could be attributed to modeling aerodynamic grip with engine braking and wide tires but it feels inconsistent as something like Colby C 125 keeps pushing forward even if I try locking tires when braking and it's questionable if weight transfer (from rear to front, where Colby's engine is) is applied as this should put more weight on front tires that should give better braking performance, real car would do that but on Colby C 125 it's like that doesn't work.

There is other thing that game does, and does it better than some of dedicated racing games, and it's steering lock. On popular franchises, say Forza players using controller turning angle of front wheels is hard-lock limited to 50% or so compared to those who use wheels. Keyboard users may have yet different settings but I don't know. Anyway, what is relevant is that you can do some very useful things, like turn your car around in urban spaces with very small spaces because turning radius isn't limited by steering lock that much and that can be further helped with throttle (RWD) or handbrake (FWD), on AWD, depends of traction ratio between front and read.

Overall, while I wrote that I'm not sure if we are using the same terminology, your gripe with driving physics looks like you want every car to work like AWD car. Now that's an opinion, but it has nothing to do with realism.

Certain realism makes things intuitive but there's point where it might not be the best approach for this type of product. Someone like me could manage physics to the point of something like Project Cars 2 even on controller, but I doubt that would be what most players would find fun. On opposite side, making physics too arcade like creates other problems, has actually happened in this game. Game up to version 1.06 had this weird physic thing on Xbox at least, where every car at some point felt like they were AWD, now imagine this. You are taking a corner with slight slide and then counter steer to stay on right angle, suddenly your front wheels has power, -> you get sucked in the ditch by move that should have been the right move. For some reason that AFAIK was not an issue on PC but they had severe steering lag to the point where counter steering couldn't be timed right. Why's was that happening, I would guess because "lazy" steering can make cars feel bit more stable, on keyboard at least. We had that lag on Xbox on ver 1.23 and before that I didn't really understood how bad PC players have had it.

I haven't got that many cars on my current playthrough on 1.3 but for most part I'm pretty okay with the physics. Weight transfer is sort of a big deal on rear-engine, real-wheel drive cars and I'm curious if Johnny's Porsche still feels like 930 series 911 like in 1.23. People have all sort of images, for whatever reasons, but older Porsches at least were all about weight transfer.

It's all about compromises but something that has been there since day one is that player can do drift tricks on RWD cars like drifting 8 shape and for my experience that was still very true. There are some limiting factors due extremely forgiving differential but mostly because every car has automatic gearing so you can't control the radius and angle that much by power. Make every car AWD and that would mean even less options, which would be boring.

Think there's lesson that can be learned from Need For Speed: Heat and Forza Horizon series. NFS: Heat had this dedicated drift button to do that and I suppose it enable pausing the game and taking a screenshot with cool picture of drift but in the end, the top franchise Horizon, there's no drift button and it's perfectly possible to drift cars that aren't even built for that without any sort of drift button. What enables that is that players have more control and while NFS style has it fans and always will, Horizon is example of how sometimes more is more.
 
The issue is, the reason I noticed that was just because of how wonky the cars still control, like they're not... the way the front wheels anchor and pull the car along defies the actual physics that should be at play given the car's shape and weight. All the traction is in the front and the back wheels tend to have ZERO, which isn't the case with tires and wheels. Just because something is FWD doesn't mean that it can only grip the road in the front. The way they've been designed in this game, there's an excessive amount of fishtailing going on, and turning down the sensitivity only makes handling heavier cars more difficulty while the fishtailing issue still persists.

It seems largely stylistic too so that the cars "feel" different, but that does mean it limits their use if you can't control them at all. Take the Quadra Turbo-R 740, for example. It's awful to drive that thing around, the compact design of the city just doesn't give this thing room to maneuver for how it fans itself out all the time. Compared to another super-fast car, the Rayfield Caliburn handles remarkably better, even at high speeds. They also both showcase the really strange way the Red Engine is coded to handle acceleration and deceleration. The turbo has a lot of get-up and GO to it, but it almost comes to a dead stop the second the break is let off, despite the face that like the Caliburn, it should carry its momentum a bit more before losing so much speed. At some point, they really need to completely overhaul the vehicle movement and handling in this game. Luckily, there's a lot of mods on Nexus that could probably point them i the right direction for that.

Yeah, real cars doesn't fishtail as bad as in Cyberpunk 2077. They need to 'anchor' the rear wheel, so the car behaves like a car. At least tone down the excessive fishtailing.
 
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I'm bit surprised to see Peugeot 205 GTI on that list having a bit of experience with that back in the day. Not sure if anything like that would be easily sold as road legal these days (it had nothing in common with other 205's but 205 badge LOL), but you could turn that thing on a dime if you knew what you were doing.
The real difference with actual cars is "electronic". At the time, no ABS, no ESP, nothing at all. One mistake and you're out :D
And I think, Cyberpunk's cars doesn't have any kind of "electronics" o_O
 
I' m curious to what the weight and its distribution is for certain cars.
Because what I find most noticealble is how 'easy' the Shion is ti drive, even when going fast. Corners very nice.
Whereas other cars can be very twitchy.
The Quadra's for instance. Though that would be explained by them being RWD. Still comparing an Avenger and Shion when cornering is world of difference.

But what baffles me the most is the motorcycles.
The CT-3X feels like a heavy tank plowing through traffic. It can bounce cars which would make superman envious.
Many a time I find myself just tunneling something like an archer or hella and I wonder how my V survives that with her head still attached :giveup:
 
Exactly, the center of gravity on every vehicle is right at the center of the car geometry no matter the supposed weight repartition they should have.
Knowing that it's easy to adjust your driving.
 
Not sure how this can be related, but noticed that driving seems to be much more enjoyable and more precise when I switch to controller rather than keyboard, which tends to send my vehicles(except bikes - bikes are pretty good using both keyboard and controller) sideways more often. It seems like using controller just adds to the right amount of sensitivity.
So yeah, every time I jump into the car I switch to controller :D
 
The real difference with actual cars is "electronic". At the time, no ABS, no ESP, nothing at all. One mistake and you're out :D
And I think, Cyberpunk's cars doesn't have any kind of "electronics" o_O
Not sure what you are referring to exactly, but 205 GTI had McPherson suspension, 14" rims (vs 13" on other models) 185 / 60 tires (vs 135 / 80 on other models) and that's just getting started on list mechanical differences that contributed GTI being a car that turned 50 kph bends to 120 kph bends. It was ridiculous. Haha.

But what comes to game, electronics compensate to a lot of things and that has been so for decades actually and game sort of reflects that. Say the Thornton Galena G240 is like someone put 205 GTI engine to 80's 5-door Opel Corsa 1.2 GL, only with that Galena has more perhaps a bit more ride height than Corsa. No traction control or anything, I don't know, in game I drive it like that and it's really fun!

Then something like the Mizutani Shion MZ2, you can feel there's lot of things going on making it so stable, like stability control working with locks, like it should IRL and it's fun for faster cruising and some drifting. Then the Delamain #21 is nice too and at least from dashboard perspective audio ques, tire noise that happens when you are close to limits of grip while cornering works really well for me.

It really begs the question if Xbox and PC version of game still has quite different driving physics or is it something else, like players not realizing how steering lock works in this game. There appears to be something happening under the hood that's not documented not only related to minimap but cars work in general. I noticed that in 1.3 version picking the right racing line huge benefits in the Beast races, while it didn't matter that much at all in 1.23. For some reason sense of speed, at least from dashboard view appears to be better, though I don't know why.


For bottom line I would point out three things:

I don't think car physics, probably one car model they use to create all cars in game, is that bad at all as it has to cover very different configurations, from Rear-Engine, Rear-wheel drive to front engine front-wheel drive. If they find a way to make better use of weight transfer (Colby C125 mentioned my earlier post is example where this is questionable in very banal scenario, like braking) all the better but IMO where they could look, that would benefit also players who don't take cars to limits, is adding force feedback effect for braking, some small vibration via left motor of controller when trigger is pulled to the point where it's close to locking brakes. That would be to model weight transfer and body vibration as well feedback from pedal (if ABS) which would have a lot of information value per se for players AND would help developing muscle memory which then in turn would help with the learning curve for finding limits of cars and driving them there, so everybody would benefit.

Second thing is finding out about real life counterparts of in-game cars, especially for American cars as initial impression of them IRL can easily be that they are all more of less, moving couches, not drivers cars like what we have in Europe. While there's some truth to that, it's not that every American car is the same, even when build on same frame. Exploring that gives players more opportunities and makes experience less monotonic and overall contributes to suspension of disbelief.

Third one is that not everything attributed to car physics is necessarily dependent from car physics model they use but how in-game physics work in general. I'm not saying there isn't valid feedback, but somethings like what you can notice on badlands, if you ignore the speedometer and think what's the actual speed is, bouncing around is something like you could expect from speed that reads on speedometer but not from what actual speed is. Think every game does this, more or less but it's very difficult to point out how much things like that contributes towards what is experienced being issue with car model and it's even natural to think about it that way. But myself, I'm not so sure if we are always necessarily even looking at the right things. I just hope that CDPR keeps making CP 2077 the best game it can be within the game we have.
 
My biggest problem with driving concerns acceleration/deceleration.
The cars just jerk wildly and bounce around. To me personally, it's game breaking. I like cruising the city slowly, following the traffic laws as i go from location to location, and it's impossible to do it smoothly. Evey time i step off the accelerator, next acceleration after that, now matter how smooth or gentle (i play on a gamepad), the cars (and even motorcycles) will violently jerk, make tire screeching sounds and then start accelerating.
That happens no matter what. It's as if V can't rev match or something and is just dumping the clutch.
Considering driving around the city is my favorite part of the game, it's really killing the whole thing for me.

Steps to reproduce: Take any car, try following the traffic laws (doesn't even have to be too strict, you can go a bit faster), try to slow down near an intersection as you would in real life, then try to accelerate, even smoothly and gently and notice how the car behaves.
 
Steps to reproduce: Take any car, try following the traffic laws (doesn't even have to be too strict, you can go a bit faster), try to slow down near an intersection as you would in real life, then try to accelerate, even smoothly and gently and notice how the car behaves.
I drive like that, not all the times, but at least with my xbox controller, it's quite smooth. Even with the Quadra Vtec who is, in my opinion the most brutal acceleration :(
 
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