I think this argument misses the point of the original poster's argument and does not address the real issues involved with Heatwave.
Yes, it removes only one card, but it does so totally uninteractively. There is no preparation to play Heatwave (something that would allow strategic counterplay) and no significant deck restrictions (losing devotion at best rules out certain decks; it does not require spending provisions to shape the deck). There is no counter, no set up to play around heatwave (other than defender which is easily neutralized), and no opportunity for replay, deathwish, or graveyard use.
I don’t know what kind of decks might be competitive if it weren’t for that “one card” removed per match, but I know Heatwave keeps me from playing Artis — I commit so much to a deck that benefits from Artis but that functions when I am unable to draw him that it seems pointless when I can’t usually benefit when I do draw him either. I know Syanna can be really interesting and strategic when I try to protect her from easy removal. But enter Heatwave and she is never worthwhile. Syndicate has lots of ways to try to protect the newly (and appropriately) nerfed Drill; with Heatwave, there’s no benefit in this and entire SY archetypes are nullified because all spenders play hard into tall removal or are very inefficient. Bronze deathwish cards are an interesting MO archetype. But the cards have insufficient value unless killed and fail to tall removal if consumed en mass. Enter Weavess: Incantation. Except whoops! Heatwave and the whole deck falls apart. SK pirates would be a lot of fun. But it depends upon Crach for payoff to make it playable. One Heatwave —no payoff — and no viable deck. I’m sure there are literally dozens of interesting decks totally destroyed by Heatwave’s one, undeniable removal.
If you want further evidence of Heatwave’s ill effects, you need simply look at the metas over the past year. Almost no decks rely on engines or delayed value. Those that do depend upon protecting that value either through inaccessibility (Viy) or last say (Gord). The other exceptions use cheap, replicable bronzes.
Finally let’s look at a snapshot of Gwent’s horribly binary cards. Scenarios, Cahir, Foltest, Gezras, Kolgrim, Brouver, Melusine, pre-nerf Tunnel Drill, Vypper, Dagur, Dracoturtle, Eist, Alzur, Kikimore Queen, Koshchey, She Who Knows, all scenarios, Alzur, Dandelion. Do you think any of these would even be admitted into the game without a Heatwave counter?
I feel like I already addressed most of this in the post above, but just to reiterate, I think both, you and @Nerevarine228 are overestimating the Heatwave's impact while at the same time putting too much into "restrictions" and "setup" of the other - both faction and neutral - removal options. YenInvo is obvious, but the fact that you spammed great swords in R1 doesn't make your R3 Hjalmar "handicapped." VVM is still the best way to deal with defenders and important veil units - an option which I - as ST main - don't have without Heatwave. Incidentally, defenders are "easily" removed according to you, but a turn of setup is somehow at the same time insurmountable. Coins are another uninteractive resource, so anything that uses those for removal is by definition uninteractive as well. All of the Geralts - except Aard - have very forgiving conditions. Syanna and Artis don't need to be - and often aren't - removed with Heatwave and yes, I do think all those cards you called "horribly binary" WOULD be admitted into the game without Heatwave - and most likely WERE admitted without specific heatwave consideration.
I would like to remind you, that until recently, Imprisonment had been (rightfully) considered trash-tier, and that was in the same world where unprecedentedly greedy engines like Cat Witchers, Gezras and certain tall units like the Elephant were running rampant. Not "inferior" to Lockdown or DC, but actual trash tier, as in weaker than weaker factions. That very period was also rather poison-intense. So, uh, the right answer to 1.2 is probably "no", at least as far as locks and poisons are concerned. They were never a great/reliable answer to threats like Orders in the first place, often aren't now, and can be countered with purification and veil. Poison in particular wasn't a healthy mechanic by any means, but it wasn't uninteractive or "solve-all" either. And thus couldn't possibly be a major reason for this new approach to card design.
Well, to me, a total number of all available control options in the game - removal, locks, banish, poison, whatever, across all factions - would be a helluva more significant reason and consideration for card design than one single card, removing one single card per match. And I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here about this design business. You're talking about cards being printed with OP deploy stuff to AVOID Heatwave, while @quintivarium is talking about "horribly binary" cards being allowed in the game just so they could be COUNTERED by Heatwave. How are you guys on the same page?
Factions have a lot of tall punish, but not much in the way of unconditional instant tall removal. They are two separate things, especially where orders and last 2 cards in hand are concerned. Morkvarg can't actually kill things. Poison needs 2 turns. Hjalmar can't kill a sufficiently protected unit. VVM needs a status. Graden needs a specific status. Morelse...well, Morelse is at least properly priced and requires coins to work. They couldn't possibly make a large amount of cards unplayable, because their reactivity is conditional and they're generally interactive as a result.
YenInvo is a major exception, but then again, for most purposes it IS Korathi, so everything I said about the latter applies to the former as well.
These two cards are different from the rest in that they share a very vicious combination of effects - unconditional removal, instant effect and, importantly, banish. Unlike the examples above, this combo can and does counter a lot of cards/decks implicitly. So even if they aren't the only reason for the powercreep and meta narrowing, they are by far the biggest contributors. Borrowing an example from a poster above, VVM or Leo can't make Dracoturtle unplayable. Uninteractive banish, on the other hand...
Last two card aren't going to be engines, and for tall removal Heatwave is not the only "instant" option. Leo works, various Geralts, Mork won't kill but he will remove all of your Aglais 50 points of boost on the sole condition it is boost. And though VVM or Leo can't make Dracoturtle unplayable, a 5p lock can, if you didn't pack Gremist. And if Heatwave takes that DT out, well, they are both 10p.
And I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here about this design business. You're talking about cards being printed with OP deploy stuff to AVOID Heatwave, while @quintivarium is talking about "horribly binary" cards being allowed in the game just so they could be COUNTERED by Heatwave. How are you guys on the same page?
Actually, Nerevarine228 and I are talking about two different ways Heatwave adversely affects card design — and I think both are valid.
I have focused upon how Heatwave enables binary card design because a card is not considered overpowered so long as it can be easily removed.
Nerevarine is focusing on how Heatwave inhibits good card design by forcing playable, high provision cards to play for immediate and distributed value.
As evidence that both occur, let me cite two recent SK cards. Melusine s a very interesting and useful card that carries three threats: growth while providing potential self-damage, massive carryover potential, and strong rain support. Despite Heatwave, it is very playable because it does not carry a deck by itself. But it is a very binary card — unless removed it is virtual auto-lose. Unless banished it must be removed multiple times. And without Heatwave, it would be absurdly imbalanced. It is a card enabled by Heatwave — and although I love the card, I don’t consider it good for the game.
Artis is a card with a unique, interesting, and not overpowered ability (which you affirm when you argue that it need not be Heatwaved). But at 8 provisions, it was seen as unplayable. I strongly suspect it would have gone largely unused at 5 provisions because, to obtain real value, the entire deck must go through gyrations. Were it’s removal contestable, it would be worthwhile. But Heatwave removal is never contestable. So, how do the developers address it in a significant rework? They add a deploy ability which doesn’t fit the card (or really support the archetype) in order for it to have enough immediate value to trade up vs. Heatwave. So, I presume to work around Heatwave, we have an ability Druid decks really needed (a tutor for bronze cultists) tied to a card with which they don’t work well, creating a card which will still almost never be played.
A turn of setting up VVM could mean purify. Not insurmountable, but could easily result in some major whopsie. It have for me. I guess your experience with VVM is very different, because you rock loads of vitality on every unit, but it rarely is as convenient with other factions.
Now. A turn of setting up Damien translates to losing Damien 99% of the time, hence the glorious reputation of an Elder Bear. Meanwhile, defenders can be dealt with using purify, movement, more exotic and healthy removal - because they tend to be the tallest unit when you play them, except for perhaps Kolgrim situations, but you already know my opinion on Kolgrim, so.
I have created a coin- and drill-hating thread earlier this year. Of course you are right. They are. And they aren't fine either, and for the very similar reasons - pre-nerf drill and a deplorably unnerfed clown can deny your attempts at any kind of elaborate setup, no matter how hard you try to protect your units. Seeing how hard they hit the drill in the latest patch, CDPR seem to agree.
That can be played around and don't have (an increasingly powerful) GY hate component, and oftentimes can't target what you want to remove in the first place (Emhyr, Francesca, Crach...)
and yes, I do think all those cards you called "horribly binary" WOULD be admitted into the game without Heatwave - and most likely WERE admitted without specific heatwave consideration.
If Archgriffin and Melusine didn't exist, I would maybe entartain this idea, but they do, and their design screams "banish me if you can". No shot they weren't thinking of KH while designing them. That would be utterly incompetent of CDPR to add them without it, and I don't think...
...huh. Maybe. I'm not sure.
Well, to me, a total number of all available control options in the game - removal, locks, banish, poison, whatever, across all factions - would be a helluva more significant reason and consideration for card design than one single card removing one single card per match.
Lock most of my engines and poison some more, and I will still find the way. I'd been succesfully and quickly taking movement/row punish/Aglais degenerate deck up to 2500+ for several seasons before the Way of the Witcher, during the Double Ball heyday. And then some ultragreedy classic Assimilate during the pandemic of Chinese Metabreaker. Trust me, I really mean it. I know these cards can be teched against, and it isn't easy, but totally possible. I get a chance to do something. And I like to think devs saw it the same way, which was the reak reason various control NG decks were allowed to terrorize the ladder for so long.
But if you kill and banish my, say, Belohun, it's very much a game over, because now I'm stuck with a bunch of low-tempo, easily removable crap. Deckbuilding costs of cards don't just boil down to their provisions. Even the much-hated Drill doesn't just cost 7p, it requires you to play a bunch of specific cards some of which have suboptimal prov/point evaluation.
Of course this principle doesn't apply when it's something you can use well regardless of what survived and what was denied, like, you know, a targeted 10p unconditional removal card.
"Removing a single card" like this easily does a lot more than just preventing its direct value. It wastes whatever resources I spent on protecting it and prevents synergy value.
A good (deliberately non-meta) example would be nuking, like, Patricidal Fury Idarran. 6 for 10, sure. But I spent a point on taking him out of Parasite - or worse, Skjordal's - range, and I have to let him sit for a turn, because betting on 1-str Arnjolf survival is kinda stupid, and my Restore is probably a brick now, which turns it into 27 for 10, while effectively negating 2 cards in a single easy motion.
A more relevant one would be Kolgrim. Yes, we all hate clog, but let's forget it for a second. It's a deck that has to play a bunch of crappy low-tempo cards to get that crazy pay-off. You banish Kolgrim, and suddenly everything falls apart. Or, heck just an especially thicc Hamadryad you've sunk a bunch of specials in. Bam. All gone just like that. 1 for 1 much, eh? Of course, some other removal cards could do it too. But not instantly. Or not as easily. And very often it's a critical distinction.
And I feel like I'm getting mixed messages here about this design business. You're talking about cards being printed with OP deploy stuff to AVOID Heatwave, while @quintivarium is talking about "horribly binary" cards being allowed in the game just so they could be COUNTERED by Heatwave. How are you guys on the same page?
Well covered by Quintivarium - both are true. They are just two bad non-mutually exclusive solutions to the same problem. But as more time passes, CDPR more and more sticks to the 1st option, because the 2nd doesn't seem to be working that well. Unfortunately, it also means more powercreep.
Brickable, expensive, fair cards. I'm fine with losing to them. Besides, I might still have time for one last cheeky Rite+Mardroeme. No such luck after a banish/steal.
Which would be shockingly bad deckbuilding on my part
Greedy, alchemy-heavy deck without Gremist, huh?
And, again, these cards leave some chances, or fail entirely, if I'm running the Iris:Shade version.
Actually, Nerevarine228 and I are talking about two different ways Heatwave adversely affects card design — and I think both are valid.
I have focused upon how Heatwave enables binary card design because a card is not considered overpowered so long as it can be easily removed.
Nerevarine is focusing on how Heatwave inhibits good card design by forcing playable, high provision cards to play for immediate and distributed value.
As evidence that both occur, let me cite two recent SK cards. Melusine s a very interesting and useful card that carries three threats: growth while providing potential self-damage, massive carryover potential, and strong rain support. Despite Heatwave, it is very playable because it does not carry a deck by itself. But it is a very binary card — unless removed it is virtual auto-lose. Unless banished it must be removed multiple times. And without Heatwave, it would be absurdly imbalanced. It is a card enabled by Heatwave — and although I love the card, I don’t consider it good for the game.
Melusine is not evidence that both occur, because it doesn't do much on deploy. Nor is it evidence of Heatwave omnipresence or being a single valid counter to a card, because you can neutralize Melusine - and avoid auto-lose - with a 4p squirrel. If anything, I'd probably bet on squirrel and Xavier to be higher on the list of potential considerations for Melusine's - and certain other SK graveyard nonsense - design than Heatwave. "Oh, this card can be countered by a 4p squirrel, so it's totally fine that it can instantly swing a hundred points! Besides, you can get half of those points back with Yrden! Yeah, good job everyone!"
Artis is a card with a unique, interesting, and not overpowered ability (which you affirm when you argue that it need not be Heatwaved). But at 8 provisions, it was seen as unplayable. I strongly suspect it would have gone largely unused at 5 provisions because, to obtain real value, the entire deck must go through gyrations. Were it’s removal contestable, it would be worthwhile. But Heatwave removal is never contestable. So, how do the developers address it in a significant rework? They add a deploy ability which doesn’t fit the card (or really support the archetype) in order for it to have enough immediate value to trade up vs. Heatwave. So, I presume to work around Heatwave, we have an ability Druid decks really needed (a tutor for bronze cultists) tied to a card with which they don’t work well, creating a card which will still almost never be played.
I think claiming that Artis rework was "caused" by Heatwave is a pretty deep reach. Especially since Artis is not even veiled and could be controlled in several other ways. Mind you, I'm not saying I know what the hell the reason was for Artis rework , but to me it seems pretty unlikely that it was Heatwave.
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Yes, for defenders, if you're running elves AND have an elf on the right that moment, you can use a sapper. What's it gonna do against veil?
A turn of setting up VVM could mean purify. Not insurmountable, but could easily result in some major whopsie. It have for me. I guess your experience with VVM is very different, because you rock loads of vitality on every unit, but it rarely is as convenient with other factions.
There's no setup needed on a defender, or a tall veiled unit. That's instant. And I don't have to run vitality with the amount of spy statuses being generated by NG nowadays. Good luck sapping all that. Granted, you could run into an issue towards last say, but VVM is not really a last say card. That's what Yenvo, Leo, etc are for.
Now. A turn of setting up Damien translates to losing Damien 99% of the time, hence the glorious reputation of an Elder Bear. Meanwhile, defenders can be dealt with using purify, movement, more exotic and healthy removal - because they tend to be the tallest unit when you play them, except for perhaps Kolgrim situations, but you already know my opinion on Kolgrim, so.
The elder bears used to be completely nuts though, before they got row-locked, and heatwave was already in its current form by then. I don't think their row-locking had anything to do with Heatwave.
I have created a coin- and drill-hating thread earlier this year. Of course you are right. They are. And they aren't fine either, and for the very similar reasons - pre-nerf drill and a deplorably unnerfed clown can deny your attempts at any kind of elaborate setup, no matter how hard you try to protect your units. Seeing how hard they hit the drill in the latest patch, CDPR seem to agree.
Drill and clown are/were worse than Heatwave, because they can target and remove multiple key units in the same turn, vs banishing a single card. The point is, if there was a method there, why would CDPR consider Heatwave in their design necessarily BEFORE the drill and clown and a million other removal and control cards? I'm not really seeing this question answered here. Nor am I convinced that removing Heatwave - something you wrote a few posts back - would lead to some greedy apocalypse that will eventually turn into Gwent rapture, some design utopia. My own guess is there's probably just gonna be even more NG around. Joy, that.
If Archgriffin and Melusine didn't exist, I would maybe entartain this idea, but they do, and their design screams "banish me if you can". No shot they weren't thinking of KH while designing them. That would be utterly incompetent of CDPR to add them without it, and I don't think...
...huh. Maybe. I'm not sure.
I addressed Melusine just above. The Archgriffin is a ridiculous card, but you don't HAVE to banish it, afaik. If it's on the board before you pass, you can control it in various ways besides Heatwave, and if you passed, well, then that Heatwave isn't gonna do anything, right? Admittedly I'm not an expert on the Griffin. What am I missing here?
Lock most of my engines and poison some more, and I will still find the way. I'd been succesfully and quickly taking movement/row punish/Aglais degenerate deck up to 2500+ for several seasons before the Way of the Witcher, during the Double Ball heyday. And then some ultragreedy classic Assimilate during the pandemic of Chinese Metabreaker. Trust me, I really mean it. I know these cards can be teched against, and it isn't easy, but totally possible. I get a chance to do something. And I like to think devs saw it the same way, which was the reak reason various control NG decks were allowed to terrorize the ladder for so long.
But if you kill and banish my, say, Belohun, it's very much a game over, because now I'm stuck with a bunch of low-tempo, easily removable crap. Deckbuilding costs of cards don't just boil down to their provisions. Even the much-hated Drill doesn't just cost 7p, it requires you to play a bunch of specific cards some of which have suboptimal prov/point evaluation.
Of course this principle doesn't apply when it's something you can use well regardless of what survived and what was denied, like, you know, a targeted 10p unconditional removal card.
"Removing a single card" like this easily does a lot more than just preventing its direct value. It wastes whatever resources I spent on protecting it and prevents synergy value.
A good (deliberately non-meta) example would be nuking, like, Patricidal Fury Idarran. 6 for 10, sure. But I spent a point on taking him out of Parasite - or worse, Skjordal's - range, and I have to let him sit for a turn, because betting on 1-str Arnjolf survival is kinda stupid, and my Restore is probably a brick now, which turns it into 27 for 10, while effectively negating 2 cards in a single easy motion.
A more relevant one would be Kolgrim. Yes, we all hate clog, but let's forget it for a second. It's a deck that has to play a bunch of crappy low-tempo cards to get that crazy pay-off. You banish Kolgrim, and suddenly everything falls apart. Or, heck just an especially thicc Hamadryad you've sunk a bunch of specials in. Bam. All gone just like that. 1 for 1 much, eh? Of course, some other removal cards could do it too. But not instantly. Or not as easily. And very often it's a critical distinction.
Well, it's true that Heatwave has the potential to completely counter a deck that's completely ALL IN on one single card, but I think the fault here is with the archtype, not Heatwave. It can also potentially prevent some infuriating cheese and toxic exploity nonsense masquerading as "meme." But aside from some renew shenanigans, your all-in Belohun (even behind that 'easily removed' defender) can be picked out and controlled by a rebuke, or a rockslide, or even a lock. If that's all it takes to make your deck fall apart, then it's not a very good deck, imo.
Brickable, expensive, fair cards. I'm fine with losing to them. Besides, I might still have time for one last cheeky Rite+Mardroeme. No such luck after a banish/steal.
Appreciate the help, but no, I actually meant "uninteractive". As in, something that cannot be interacted with. Which Korathi very much is. Compare it for example with CoC or Gigni or Scorch - they are specials and a deploy, true, but you can still play around them within the rules of in-the-box gameplay - avoid going too tall with a high-value unit, not having 2 tall units at the same value/on the same row, run resurrections etc. These cards can't instantly remove something with 100% precision and can be protected from to a degree (thus, you can interact with them, if indirectly). Whereas the only real way to "interact" with Heatwave is to deny access to your valuable unit/artifact completely, either by running a defender or not playing the card till the end (which is fine for Gord but very lame for, say, Emhyr).
Ok, I now understand what you mean. Especially that you can't resurrect a banished unit, is a good point. However, I think that "Interaction" is not a good term when it comes to game-play. From my understanding, Interaction implements that several actors are trying to support each other, in order to achieve some sort of goal. You're interacting with the computer's interface, with the cards on your side of the field, but not with your opponents actions. Every action from a player in a competitive 1v1 matchup is either a reaction or a proaction, but never an interaction. Because that would implement that you're trying to achieve the same goal, which is not the case when they're trying to defeat each other...
Yes it is, precisely because she doesn't do much on deploy. First, let's really establish something here - were talking about 2 different sorts of bad new cards in the first place - those with distributed on-deploy ones (ex:Cleaver, Witchfinder), and then the 2nd kind - those that don't have much on-deploy value, but are made even more ridiculous to (presumably) justify the risk of running them (ex:Melusine, Francesca, Gerni, SWK, Bleinheim coinfarmer...). Conversely, the only plausible explanation for how insane 2nd group's abilities are, is devs not really expecting them to actully ever work in competitive play (and be right not to). "General Powercreep" can't really explain it fully, because not even existence of the top-of-the-meta on-deploy abominations like Mammuna would be a sufficient excuse to create Melusine if KH didn't exist.
Nor is it evidence of Heatwave omnipresence or being a single valid counter to a card, because you can neutralize Melusine - and avoid auto-lose - with a 4p squirrel. If anything, I'd probably bet on squirrel and Xavier to be higher on the list of potential considerations for Melusine's - and certain other SK graveyard nonsense - design than Heatwave. "Oh, this card can be countered by a 4p squirrel, so it's totally fine that it can instantly swing a hundred points! Besides, you can get half of those points back with Yrden! Yeah, good job everyone!"
And what would that "tall veiled unit" be? Francesca or Melusine, but that's it, isn't it? It is a valid argument, but it's limited to a few isolated cases, so I am not buying it. And the loss of a defender means nothing on its own. It's not even a desirable target. And actual desirable targets can (sometimes) be saved from VVM.
The elder bears used to be completely nuts though, before they got row-locked, and heatwave was already in its current form by then. I don't think their row-locking had anything to do with Heatwave.
Yah, firstly, row-locking happened way before Heatwave became a major force in the game, and secondly, Damien has since been buffed to 6 points, but remained an elder bear all the same. I don't think it has anything to do with Boiling Oils or Malena, or VVM, or even Skelligan Cucumber Lotion to be honest. But probably has a lot do to with Invo/KH.
Drill and clown are/were worse than Heatwave, because they can target and remove multiple key units in the same turn, vs banishing a single card. The point is, if there was a method there, why would CDPR consider Heatwave in their design necessarily BEFORE the drill and clown and a million other removal and control cards? I'm not really seeing this question answered here.
Because unlike stupid coin pingers, Heatwave is unfortunately a key element of current balance and much harder to get rid of/ignore when developing something. And it's neutral, which automatically puts it higher on the list. While SY had its nerf coming for a while.
Nor am I convinced that removing Heatwave - something you wrote a few posts back - would lead to some greedy apocalypse that will eventually turn into Gwent rapture, some design utopia. My own guess is there's probably just gonna be even more NG around. Joy, that.
With the amount of cards that would instantly become playable, greedy apocalypse and meme pandemic would be pretty much inevitable. Gwent rapture, on the other hand, would require the devs to capitalize on this and never create another guaranteed setup-killer AND anything of Gerni's/Cahir's caliber. Which...I am not sure they won't, considering how they apparently never learned from the GS miserable example, but a man can dream though.
The Archgriffin is a ridiculous card, but you don't HAVE to banish it, afaik. If it's on the board before you pass, you can control it in various ways besides Heatwave, and if you passed, well, then that Heatwave isn't gonna do anything, right? Admittedly I'm not an expert on the Griffin. What am I missing here?
Touche. You don't have to banish it. Still, realistically speaking, a lot of tall punishes wouldn't be reliable enough, and AG was still probably intented to be KH/Invo fodder. Something like duels wouldn't suffice, and VVM isn't guaranteed, especially because AG decks do run purifies.
Well, it's true that Heatwave has the potential to completely counter a deck that's completely ALL IN on one single card, but I think the fault here is with the archtype, not Heatwave.
You could look at it this way. The archetype that heavily relies on a single card is probably poorly balanced. But also - it would STILL be fine if this card had at least a token chance to work.
I even specifically mentioned how the game would a lot of minor tweaks if we were to remove KH/Invo. Yes. The exploits would have to go too. But it's not like there are too many potential ones.
But aside from some renew shenanigans, your all-in Belohun (even behind that 'easily removed' defender) can be picked out and controlled by a rebuke, or a rockslide, or even a lock. If that's all it takes to make your deck fall apart, then it's not a very good deck, imo.
Oh, if all it took was just a lock or a minor removal special, then yes, it would be a bad deck. But if I bring a Pellar, Coodkoodak, a defender, and a bunch of shields, a couple of Marines and they STILL can't protect my Belohun after devoting so many resources to it...then the deck probably isn't at fault here, and, conversely, there's somethng seriously wrong with a card that easily bypasses all of that (inb4 "what about VVM then?", I obviously would take a different line of protecting the card against NG).
Yrden is a whole other can of worms, and honestly, unlike KH, it can (and should) be reworked easily and without any additional fuss. It's just an outdated toxic card that, at the same time, doesn't really have any meta-defining properties to consider.
Ok, I now understand what you mean. Especially that you can't resurrect a banished unit, is a good point. However, I think that "Interaction" is not a good term when it comes to game-play. From my understanding, Interaction implements that several actors are trying to support each other, in order to achieve some sort of goal. You're interacting with the computer's interface, with the cards on your side of the field, but not with your opponents actions. Every action from a player in a competitive 1v1 matchup is either a reaction or a proaction, but never an interaction. Because that would implement that you're trying to achieve the same goal, which is not the case when they're trying to defeat each other...
interaction
/ɪntərˈakʃ(ə)n/ noun
reciprocal action or influence.
I think you're putting too much meaning into this word, especially with the goal clause. "Playing around" potential value of some special card can still be considering an interaction, according to the definition, because its presence influences your actions AND your actions influence the end value of the card in question.
Yes it is, precisely because she doesn't do much on deploy. First, let's really establish something here - were talking about 2 different sorts of bad new cards in the first place - those with distributed on-deploy ones (ex:Cleaver, Witchfinder), and then the 2nd kind - those that don't have much on-deploy value, but are made even more ridiculous to (presumably) justify the risk of running them (ex:Melusine, Francesca, Gerni, SWK, Bleinheim coinfarmer...). Conversely, the only plausible explanation for how insane 2nd group's abilities are, is devs not really expecting them to actully ever work in competitive play (and be right not to). "General Powercreep" can't really explain it fully, because not even existence of the top-of-the-meta on-deploy abominations like Mammuna would be a sufficient excuse to create Melusine if KH didn't exist.
We did already establish that. The point was, according to @quintivarium Melusine is supposed to illustrate "both" sorts of bad new cards and - once again - she doesn't, because she only belongs to the second group. Further, I disagree that the abilities of the second group are that much "more insane" than the first, so that their creation can only be explained by KH existence. (While at the same time, the FIRST group's existence also "can only be explained" by KH, so we could also say "not even existence of Melusine could explain such on-deploy abominations as Mammuna if KH didn't exist." It's an easy way to make an argument, but it doesn't actually work to convince anyone who doesn't consider KH some keystone of Gwent that it is, in fact, that.)
And what would that "tall veiled unit" be? Francesca or Melusine, but that's it, isn't it? It is a valid argument, but it's limited to a few isolated cases, so I am not buying it. And the loss of a defender means nothing on its own. It's not even a desirable target. And actual desirable targets can (sometimes) be saved from VVM.
Anything you open with into a Crystal Skull. A tall self-boosting engine. A protected veil unit such as Dunca. Ciri. Fallen Knight. Even torturers. There are more cases than you make it sound to be. And the actual desirable targets can be saved from KH by the defender just like they can be saved from VVM or anything else.
Yah, firstly, row-locking happened way before Heatwave became a major force in the game, and secondly, Damien has since been buffed to 6 points, but remained an elder bear all the same. I don't think it has anything to do with Boiling Oils or Malena, or VVM, or even Skelligan Cucumber Lotion to be honest. But probably has a lot do to with Invo/KH.
Not sure what you mean by heatwave "becoming a force," but I'm pretty sure its banish ability happened BEFORE row locking of the elder bears. And if they aren't played now - though I see both here and there fairly often, especially Skellen - it's not because of KH, but because both have been powercrept. Hell, Verno is all deploy and you don't see him at all, either. Is that because of KH, too?
Because unlike stupid coin pingers, Heatwave is unfortunately a key element of current balance and much harder to get rid of/ignore when developing something. And it's neutral, which automatically puts it higher on the list. While SY had its nerf coming for a while.
That heatwave is a "key element of current balance" is a thesis of this discussion, not a proof, and though it is neutral until the coin pingers, a lot of those "a million other control options" I mention in that paragraph are neutral as well. And anyway, the point here isn't even that Heatwave is higher or lower on the list than the drill. It's that it's not THE ONLY THING on the list. It's that there is a list.
With the amount of cards that would instantly become playable, greedy apocalypse and meme pandemic would be pretty much inevitable. Gwent rapture, on the other hand, would require the devs to capitalize on this and never create another guaranteed setup-killer AND anything of Gerni's/Cahir's caliber. Which...I am not sure they won't, considering how they apparently never learned from the GS miserable example, but a man can dream though.
Once again, I don't think there will be this flood of cards that are unplayable now becoming playable, if KH goes away. I don't even really think there are cards that are ACTUALLY unplayable currently specifically BECAUSE of KH. BUT even if you're right and KH removal will have some sort of impact on the game, like I said before, NG will still exist and they don't play KH even now. So if some meme renaissance really happens, then all the non-NG factions will suffer from them, but NG will chug along, probably going from 25 percent or whatever it is now to about 50. I guess there might also be a small chance that the current NG crowd will move to memes in the scenario. Either way, I would probably be taking a very long break from gwent.
You could look at it this way. The archetype that heavily relies on a single card is probably poorly balanced. But also - it would STILL be fine if this card had at least a token chance to work.
It does have a token chance to work. That's why stupid meme decks, such as Kelly, still exist and thrive. KH is not nearly as ubiquitous in current Gwent as it was even a year ago.
Oh, if all it took was just a lock or a minor removal special, then yes, it would be a bad deck. But if I bring a Pellar, Coodkoodak, a defender, and a bunch of shields, a couple of Marines and they STILL can't protect my Belohun after devoting so many resources to it...then the deck probably isn't at fault here, and, conversely, there's somethng seriously wrong with a card that easily bypasses all of that (inb4 "what about VVM then?", I obviously would take a different line of protecting the card against NG).
Heatwave is a universal solution to universal problems, mostly OP factions and lazy design cards.
So far, I`ve teched Heatwave mostly to deal with:
1. Scenarios
2. Skellige
3. No unit / Madoc
4. Monsters (but no so much recently)
Against other factions it`s pretty much situational.
That is also because of Xavier nerf - getting rid of OP Skellige or relics pointslams in one play was really good, as it punished greedy and lazy plays like Cerys, Lippy, Sigdrifa, relicspam, Ozzrel, and so on (also the Commandos sh..t).
So unless the greed is curbed, Heatwave is necessary.
But that will not happen, so....
Some time ago the Devs decided that they want to reduce artifact removal (especially relevant for Scenarios and weather removal). I always stated that I like the idea of having cards which can do artifact removal/weather removal and something other situational on Ranged.
Currently heatwave , bearification and Shupe: Hunter are the only ways to remove artifacts which I consider to be somehow not enough.
2) Dangerous engine cards
There are those kind of engine cards which can not be removed easily (e.g. 6 + power, shielded,...) and which offer intense carry over potential (e.g. Melussine, Madoc,...). So heatwave can be important to stop an engine in one round and to stop the carryover potential.
3) Tall units
Yes, there are cheaper sources of tall removal but often they are very conditional. So Heatwave can found huge value (20 +) against greedy strategy
4) Defender removal
If your target scenario, dangerous engine card or tall unit is behind a defender you can use heatwave against the defender to attack this card.
But you basically spend more provision than the costs of the defender.
What are the downsides?
If you face a deck not having a valuable target (e.g. many swarm decks) the value of heatwave is heavy limited.
You do not have Devotion anymore
Regarding nerfs
Actually I think this card is fine as it is. I could imagine that you change the banish to a transform (somehow comparable to Bearification). Maybe transform it to a 1 - 5 token (e.g. Lamp Djinn with reduced base power) and then play around a bit with the provisions can be done.
Agreed. There are better ways to take care of Defenders than KH for certain factions ie. movement, purification etc. Any of the mentioned options are fine as long as you aren't running devotion of course, as stated above. The only real reason to run KH is to remove an artifact/location/scenario.
We did already establish that. The point was, according to @quintivarium Melusine is supposed to illustrate "both" sorts of bad new cards and - once again - she doesn't, because she only belongs to the second group.
Where does Quintivarium say that Melusive belongs to both groups, though? To me it seemed like he just brought her up as in example of the 2nd type, to illustrate how they also exist along with the fractured-value cards.
Further, I disagree that the abilities of the second group are that much "more insane" than the first, so that their creation can only be explained by KH existence.
Are they not? They, quite clearly, have much higher ceilings than what ended up getting popular and consequently nerfed. Playing 20 points two clicks is a pretty crazy effect, true. But how would that measure up to infinite on-order rain/30 carryover/readily available self-damage, Shupe/Scorch/Oneiro duplication and 50-pts Gerni in a world, where these effects cannot be easily stopped in 1 click? Because honestly, Skjordal and VVM would probably have their hands full even without having to take care of 1 more threat (they do even now), and, again, aren't quite as all-powerful.
But it is, though, regardless of opinions. KH is the first thing streamers mention, when analysing new cards. KH is something that goes in every deck that can afford to have it, at least if you're being serious about building something competitive. It's just a fact - no other card (apart from YI) can make something like Belohun completely non-viable. Boiling Oils, Ansei, Skjordal, Eist+BoG, poisons, Philippa, Rebuke spam, Scorch, a salt shaker half-full of...wait, wrong list.
Anyway. All of these are contestable, and have previously been contested (like in Shieldwall meta, happy times!).
None of them are guaranteed death sentences. And as such, they can't passively steer and define the limits of viability like KH's intimidating presence does.
Need a proof it's KH/Invo specifically? Pre-nerf Gord. Every guide out there stressed how important last say is. You can't just explain it by Leo or Geralt - not many people play them in the first place. VVM isn't a last say card, so couldn't be him either. Why was last say so important then, I wonder? Morkvarg, maybe, but is he available to every faction? Last I checked, he wasn't, and wasn't even that popular in SK control.
Bottom line, If a card that can make the last say the single most important factor in a match, isn't a keystone of the game, I don't know what is.
All replaceable bronzes and a throwaway gold. What is an actual valuable game-defining target you are actually afraid to lose VVM can kill as easily as KH by default?
Defender is a very specific and expensive protective measure that can be countered in a variety of ways. Whereas Purify is the cheapest imaginable effect with minimal deckbuilding cost. Not saying VVM sucks, but there's a lot more nuances to him.
Not sure what you mean by heatwave "becoming a force," but I'm pretty sure its banish ability happened BEFORE row locking of the elder bears. And if they aren't played now - though I see both here and there fairly often, especially Skellen - it's not because of KH, but because both have been powercrept. Hell, Verno is all deploy and you don't see him at all, either. Is that because of KH, too?
Okay, what, what rank do you actually see Skellen at? Because I've met exactly 2 this whole year so far, including this season, always a major surprise, both as a part of some mass-copying degeneracy. My word against yours.
Either way, no meta lists include him. Hell, few meme list include him.
Now, addressing the "becoming the force question" - it became so prominent and caught everyone's attention because of HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE artifact removal rework and, arguably, Madoc. Not that it was weak before, it's just that in wasn't as practical. Few, if any, targets needing banish, Bomb Heaver...
Anyway, how are Damien and Skellen powercrept? Their orders still are incredibly powerful. Another Double Cross or Coup have a floor of 7 points, at which point they break even, and that's absolutely the worst scenario where you have no assimilate engines and anything decent to steal which is hardly even possible anymore. In a situation where you do, their value can go up to 20 and even 30 points occasionally. How is it bad, and how come even Joachim's and Diviners' support can't make them go off (I've tried)?
That heatwave is a "key element of current balance" is a thesis of this discussion, not a proof, and though it is neutral until the coin pingers, a lot of those "a million other control options" I mention in that paragraph are neutral as well. And anyway, the point here isn't even that Heatwave is higher or lower on the list than the drill. It's that it's not THE ONLY THING on the list. It's that there is a list.
The list in question is mainly comprised of conditional/contestable cards, which don't matter nearly as much due to their (variably) interactive nature. And "interactivity" (or, perhaps, "agency", to not upset DC9V) is incidentally the real point of contention in this discussion. To reiterate - name just one other card that isn't KH/Invo that you absolutely can't protect a unit from by regular means (boosts/armor/purify)?
It does have a token chance to work. That's why stupid meme decks, such as Kelly, still exist and thrive. KH is not nearly as ubiquitous in current Gwent as it was even a year ago.
Kelly is a unique case, though. The deck is deliberately built around self-sufficient threat overload, even moreso now, and Kelly herself doesn't even usually get to do much. It's the threat of her presence rather than her actual ability that does all the heavylifting. The deck might've as well been named "MO Ciri". Kinda hard to emulate the same effect with any other faction or a leader ability.
Where does Quintivarium say that Melusive belongs to both groups, though? To me it seemed like he just brought her up as in example of the 2nd type, to illustrate how they also exist along with the fractured-value cards.
OK, I probably misread his post there. He says the two units illustrate "both" points, but I guess Melusine is supposed to illustrate one and Artis the other (though the Artis example is questionable).
Are they not? They, quite clearly, have much higher ceilings than what ended up getting popular and consequently nerfed. Playing 20 points two clicks is a pretty crazy effect, true. But how would that measure up to infinite on-order rain/30 carryover/readily available self-damage, Shupe/Scorch/Oneiro duplication and 50-pts Gerni in a world, where these effects cannot be easily stopped in 1 click? Because honestly, Skjordal and VVM would probably have their hands full even without having to take care of 1 more threat (they do even now), and, again, aren't quite as all-powerful.
I appreciate the effort here to hype my girl Fran, but really, she's not as apocalyptic as all that. And a 50-point Gerni hasn't been seen since the Caranthir nerf. She's basically a 3 point per turn engine now, which, although hard to deal with herself, depends on very vulnerable fruits for said points. Out of the others you listed there, SWK is lockable and/or damageable, and the poison coinfarmer is within rebuke range. Melusine is the unique case here, where she basically insane and ALMOST HAS to be heatwaved, due to the recent bright idea of GY spam, but that's really just one card and that's neither her nor there. Rather than proving that KH is the basis of design, it just proves that the devs don't play test and print overtuned cards, which they later either nerf or powercreep with other overtuned cards.
But it is, though, regardless of opinions. KH is the first thing streamers mention, when analysing new cards. KH is something that goes in every deck that can afford to have it, at least if you're being serious about building something competitive. It's just a fact - no other card (apart from YI) can make something like Belohun completely non-viable. Boiling Oils, Ansei, Skjordal, Eist+BoG, poisons, Philippa, Rebuke spam, Scorch, a salt shaker half-full of...wait, wrong list.
Anyway. All of these are contestable, and have previously been contested (like in Shieldwall meta, happy times!).
None of them are guaranteed death sentences. And as such, they can't passively steer and define the limits of viability like KH's intimidating presence does.
Not only this isn't a fact, it's actually, objectively wrong at least in part. Case in point, last season I played 4 factions on pro ladder: ST, SK, SY and NR, and ALL 4 of them were devotion decks. Now, granted, we may not have the same definition of "competitive," but none of those decks were below 2400 after 25 matches, and my ST was well over 2500.
Need a proof it's KH/Invo specifically? Pre-nerf Gord. Every guide out there stressed how important last say is. You can't just explain it by Leo or Geralt - not many people play them in the first place. VVM isn't a last say card, so couldn't be him either. Why was last say so important then, I wonder? Morkvarg, maybe, but is he available to every faction? Last I checked, he wasn't, and wasn't even that popular in SK control.
Bottom line, If a card that can make the last say the single most important factor in a match, isn't a keystone of the game, I don't know what is.
KH is not the only card, though. If you don't have last say with Gord, you lose to 4p spores. And Mork, and Geralt (s), and Yenvo, and freaking Peter Pan.
Okay, what, what rank do you actually see Skellen at? Because I've met exactly 2 this whole year so far, including this season, always a major surprise, both as a part of some mass-copying degeneracy. My word against yours.
I was literally playing yesterday and the dude was playing Enslave 5 with Skellen in it. And I'm pretty sure on the weekend I ran into a soldier's deck with both, Skellen and Damien. This is pro rank. My word against yours.
Now, addressing the "becoming the force question" - it became so prominent and caught everyone's attention because of HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE artifact removal rework and, arguably, Madoc. Not that it was weak before, it's just that in wasn't as practical. Few, if any, targets needing banish, Bomb Heaver...
It was pretty much autoinclude in certain decks even before the artifact removal nerf, because even though you could tech bomb heaver, it was a dead card against non-scenario decks, and heatwave would still find a target. And if it did become a "force" after that rework, it has lost a lot of that since then, because scenarios are not as prevalent right now.
Anyway, how are Damien and Skellen powercrept? Their orders still are incredibly powerful. Another Double Cross or Coup have a floor of 7 points, at which point they break even, and that's absolutely the worst scenario where you have no assimilate engines and anything decent to steal which is hardly even possible anymore. In a situation where you do, their value can go up to 20 and even 30 points occasionally. How is it bad, and how come even Joachim's and Diviners' support can't make them go off (I've tried)?
They are powercrept because they are orders and because they are row-locked. Double Bribery (I guess you mean Bribery, because Double Cross is leader?) is cool, but why the hell would you set up a defender, then low-tempo a turn and wait for that rng if you can Braathens, Vigo, Terranova instantly? Double coup is cool, but your blightmaker will thin the deck for you without the wait, what are you gonna draw with all those Joachims. Just mill your own deck. Same story with Damien, pretty much. Either way, it's not because of KH that they aren't used, because KH has "always" been there, even in their heyday.
The list in question is mainly comprised of conditional/contestable cards, which don't matter nearly as much due to their (variably) interactive nature. And "interactivity" (or, perhaps, "agency", to not upset DC9V) is incidentally the real point of contention in this discussion. To reiterate - name just one other card that isn't KH/Invo that you absolutely can't protect a unit from by regular means (boosts/armor/purify)?
If the card is tall, then it's still Geralts, Leos, Eicks, Wrath, I mean there's a bunch of those destroy cards. Vilge, etc. A bunch of them. And if it's not tall, then... it ain't worth a heatwave, right?
Kelly is a unique case, though. The deck is deliberately built around self-sufficient threat overload, even moreso now, and Kelly herself doesn't even usually get to do much. It's the threat of her presence rather than her actual ability that does all the heavylifting. The deck might've as well been named "MO Ciri". Kinda hard to emulate the same effect with any other faction or a leader ability.
It seems like the discussion got very heated here.
I just want to share my opinion about the Heatwave. I think that the KH lacks some condition. It is too straightforward to play, considering how impactful it can be, because of banishing its target.
I personally like when cards have some conditions, it makes game much more interesting. There is always some space to play around these cards and enjoy the game.
Right now the Heatwave design is rather underwhelming. Maybe we should think what condition would make it better, to keep it playable but to also create some space to play around it and have some fun.
Melusine was intended as an example of a ridiculously powerful engine that, were it not for Heatwave, would be nonfunctionally overpowered in the game. I used the revised Artis as an example of how even the developers seem to realize that cards, to be viable, need immediate value and costly delayed value cards will rarely see use.
But I think the focus of the argument is starting to be lost. Let me recap my position.
1. Excessive removal -- especially unconditional removal -- is bad for the game
Too much removal -- especially unconditional removal -- reduces strategic interaction both by providing no means of interacting with the removal and by reducing the cards on the board to interact with.
Unconditional removal enables powerful binary cards (like Melusine) to exist without so blatantly imbalancing the game as to make it unplayable.
Excessive removal limits viable cards to those which play for immediate and usually distributed value. This also reduces variety in the game.
2. There is presently excessive removal in the game. Evidence is the nature of cards considered viable, the nature of cards that are deemed unplayable, and player experience.
3. While not necessarily the cause of the problem, and certainly not the only culprit, Heatwave is the worst of the removal cards because
it is the most unconditional
It applies to any card on the board (except for very rare units with immunity)
It combines removal with banishment
It is available to all factions
It admits no counter, no reaction, and no mechanisms other than defender to play around.
I recognize that there presently are many, many broken engines and that the game would be an absolute mess without removal like Heatwave and Yrden. But I would encourage movement toward a less removal based game, or at least removal that can be interacted with.
Of course she isn't. Because she's a Dol Blathanna Bear. And thus we don't even have a lot of practical evidence of how good her card duplication is. But I would assume it can be terrifying.
And a 50-point Gerni hasn't been seen since the Caranthir nerf. She's basically a 3 point per turn engine now, which, although hard to deal with herself, depends on very vulnerable fruits for said points.
True. I kinda forgot about Caranthir's nerf. But also - still far too much and still probably the main Heatwave target. And with the fruit spawn, she kinda fits into both categories of bad cards, too.
And purifiable. With a conveniently tagged Caretaker, too. Damage is inconsequential as long as she survives the piece, because even 1 point could become card advantage.
Melusine is the unique case here, where she basically insane and ALMOST HAS to be heatwaved, due to the recent bright idea of GY spam, but that's really just one card and that's neither her nor there. Rather than proving that KH is the basis of design, it just proves that the devs don't play test and print overtuned cards, which they later either nerf or powercreep with other overtuned cards.
You know, it might be actually true. Maybe they aren't balancing around Heatwave, and just pull random OP nosense out of a hat due to staggering incompetence. But I'll just refuse to accept this one...for now. Firstly, because hey've shown some self-awareness in the latest patch video, the changes were adequate, and their promises sounded reasonable (although the statement about fun and balance was kinda alarming). Secondly, because if that's the case, what is the point of even having this conversation? The game will never get better, end of story.
That said, KH's influences on viability and meta in general are real regardless of whether they actually balance around it or not. It would just be shocking to learn they don't.
Not only this isn't a fact, it's actually, objectively wrong at least in part. Case in point, last season I played 4 factions on pro ladder: ST, SK, SY and NR, and ALL 4 of them were devotion decks. Now, granted, we may not have the same definition of "competitive," but none of those decks were below 2400 after 25 matches, and my ST was well over 2500.
KH is not the only card, though. If you don't have last say with Gord, you lose to 4p spores. And Mork, and Geralt (s), and Yenvo, and freaking Peter Pan.
Spores are a questionable card to run, though. And Mork is just SK. And Yenvo is effectively the same thing as Korathi, as we've already established like 3 times here
It was pretty much autoinclude in certain decks even before the artifact removal nerf, because even though you could tech bomb heaver, it was a dead card against non-scenario decks, and heatwave would still find a target. And if it did become a "force" after that rework, it has lost a lot of that since then, because scenarios are not as prevalent right now.
Wrong. Suppose I have an 8-point Vysogota. Or a 7 point Fran. Or a 7 point Crach. Are they not worth a heatwave?
While at that, consider this: I made an effort to make this Vyso 8 points, tried so hard and come so far to avoid both Geralts and rebukes. How is it fair and right, that in the end it doesn't even matter?
I personally like when cards have some conditions, it makes game much more interesting. There is always some space to play around these cards and enjoy the game.
I agree. As a condition I would like something that takes the Round score into consideration. For example, if you are losing the Round by that amount of point, then trigger some sort of powerful removal. I think the game lacks "comeback" cards.
Of course she isn't. Because she's a Dol Blathanna Bear. And thus we don't even have a lot of practical evidence of how good her card duplication is. But I would assume it can be terrifying.
That said, KH's influences on viability and meta in general are real regardless of whether they actually balance around it or not. It would just be shocking to learn they don't.
Speaking of meta (and calling back to how Skellen is nowhere to be found in meta lists), in the most recent Elder Blood meta, KH is not in top 2 tiers of deck AT ALL. That's top 6 meta decks not running KH. Out of 12 decks listed across all tiers (including poor ST HB, which didn't make the cut but was an "honorable mention"), only 3 include KH. Not exactly meta-defining or autoinclude.
Here's the page I'm on: "KH is something that goes in every deck that can afford to have it, at least if you're being serious about building something competitive. It's just a fact -" I know there's important stuff after the dash, but my response was mostly to the preceding sentence.
Wrong. Suppose I have an 8-point Vysogota. Or a 7 point Fran. Or a 7 point Crach. Are they not worth a heatwave?
While at that, consider this: I made an effort to make this Vyso 8 points, tried so hard and come so far to avoid both Geralts and rebukes. How is it fair and right, that in the end it doesn't even matter?
That paragraph you're responding to was specifically about "Last Say." If that 8-point Corvo, Fran or Crach is your last say, then no, he's not worth KH.
Speaking of meta (and calling back to how Skellen is nowhere to be found in meta lists), in the most recent Elder Blood meta, KH is not in top 2 tiers of deck AT ALL. That's top 6 meta decks not running KH. Out of 12 decks listed across all tiers (including poor ST HB, which didn't make the cut but was an "honorable mention"), only 3 include KH. Not exactly meta-defining or autoinclude.
But it was everywhere recently. And of course is isn't now, since MO has been nuked pretty hard. As per my original point, the game has been steered towards instant and optimally-distributed value so much, there's not even many good targets to be found anymore, the very meta report you refer to confirms it. But that's the thing -
It doesn't need to be in every meta deck to make something non-competitive/non-viable. In fact, it doesn't have to be in any meta decks at all times - its passive presence ensures, that the second enough people try playing something like protected Syanna unironically, it will be back with vengeance. As proved by every season's first week, where greedy nonsense is playable for a short while, and then the reality sets in and reminds us that the game favors deploy value and overtuned engines heavily. It's a miracle Leticia even made it to a t3 deck (but not really, mages are basically Blue Kelly, can't control all of them)
Here's the page I'm on: "KH is something that goes in every deck that can afford to have it, at least if you're being serious about building something competitive. It's just a fact -" I know there's important stuff after the dash, but my response was mostly to the preceding sentence.
Oh. So you just decided to focus on the minor point and ignore the key one there. Alright. Even then, it still ended in a misunderstanding, because the original post said "decks that can afford it", which clearly makes Devotion exempt from the whole argument. I never said anything about Devotion not being viable. If I formulated my thoughts poorly, I apologize. The word "fact" there refers to what was written after it, not the previous statement, hence the dash.
Maybe, but only KH/Invo make the whole situation hopeless for them, and therefore make them non-viable. Not "necessarily", but "most likely". Because, like previously discussed, every other control card in the game has either a counter, or a serious downside. And I know how they can be played around, because I have, as a veteran degenerate deckbuilder with a love of tall units and stupid order effects.
All of which I'm fine with. All I care about - and care to prove - is that KH/YI deny agency in card trades like no other card in the game, and are toxic/have too much bearing on meta for this reason. Full disclosure, I didn't think about YI at the time, and I really should've included it in the title.
That paragraph you're responding to was specifically about "Last Say." If that 8-point Corvo, Fran or Crach is your last say, then no, he's not worth KH.
If the card is tall, then it's still Geralts, Leos, Eicks, Wrath, I mean there's a bunch of those destroy cards. Vilge, etc. A bunch of them. And if it's not tall, then... it ain't worth a heatwave, right?
Which makes it strange that you were talking about last say specifically, because the original question you were responding to didn't.
The list in question is mainly comprised of conditional/contestable cards, which don't matter nearly as much due to their (variably) interactive nature. And "interactivity" (or, perhaps, "agency", to not upset DC9V) is incidentally the real point of contention in this discussion. To reiterate - name just one other card that isn't KH/Invo that you absolutely can't protect a unit from by regular means (boosts/armor/purify)?
It's a strong effect, potentially, but Fran doesn't play "double tutors and tall punishes". She duplicates what you play, so she plays 1 of those things. Which, with the timing and the setup, the payoff is not on the level of some other "slow burn" cards, at least consistency-wise. Therefore, Fran is basically a meme herself.
But it was everywhere recently. And of course is isn't now, since MO has been nuked pretty hard. As per my original point, the game has been steered towards instant and optimally-distributed value so much, there's not even many good targets to be found anymore, the very meta report you refer to confirms it. But that's the thing -
I think MO nuking had very little to do with it not being popular. After all, Melusine is still very much around. It's just that Devotion generally provides more benefits now than taking out one single card, no matter how immediate, unconditional, etc etc it is. And I don't feel like it was that recent, either. I think it's been a while since KH heyday.
It doesn't need to be in every meta deck to make something non-competitive/non-viable. In fact, it doesn't have to be in any meta decks at all times - its passive presence ensures, that the second enough people try playing something like protected Syanna unironically, it will be back with vengeance. As proved by every season's first week, where greedy nonsense is playable for a short while, and then the reality sets in and reminds us that the game favors deploy value and overtuned engines heavily. It's a miracle Leticia even made it to a t3 deck (but not really, mages are basically Blue Kelly, can't control all of them)
Unprotected Syanna, once again, doesn't need a KH to be countered. And its "passive presence" ensures that people have a choice to break Devotion for the sake of countering one single key card, if they find themselves facing and getting owned by that one card over and over and have no other means of countering it. And the meta will fluctuate, as it does, until it becomes unviable to include KH again, as it is now. I see nothing wrong with that. Nor do I see KH as "one card to rule them all" or whatever, that Gwent revolves around.
Oh. So you just decided to focus on the minor point and ignore the key one there. Alright. Even then, it still ended in a misunderstanding, because the original post said "decks that can afford it", which clearly makes Devotion exempt from the whole argument. I never said anything about Devotion not being viable. If I formulated my thoughts poorly, I apologize. The word "fact" there refers to what was written after it, not the previous statement, hence the dash.
Maybe, but only KH/Invo make the whole situation hopeless for them, and therefore make them non-viable. Not "necessarily", but "most likely". Because, like previously discussed, every other control card in the game has either a counter, or a serious downside. And I know how they can be played around, because I have, as a veteran degenerate deckbuilder with a love of tall units and stupid order effects.
No, I disagree. I'd bet if you asked a thousand NG players why or why they don't play Skellen and Damien anymore, very few, if any, would say "But it's because Korathi Heatwave is in the game, of course! Duh!"
All of which I'm fine with. All I care about - and care to prove - is that KH/YI deny agency in card trades like no other card in the game, and are toxic/have too much bearing on meta for this reason. Full disclosure, I didn't think about YI at the time, and I really should've included it in the title.
I guess this becomes an issue in long conversations, where the debate is fractured between quotes and each person "hears" it differently. Maybe that one paragraph wasn't about last say, but Last Say was a prominent point of discussion earlier in that comment, so in my mind it naturally tied in.
It's a strong effect, potentially, but Fran doesn't play "double tutors and tall punishes". She duplicates what you play, so she plays 1 of those things. Which, with the timing and the setup, the payoff is not on the level of some other "slow burn" cards, at least consistency-wise. Therefore, Fran is basically a meme herself.
We were comparing slowburners to burst cards, though. And Fran can easily do more points that even the worst offender ever, Mammuna. Or, rather, she could, if she ever survived. Which was the original point. She's only a meme because she doesn't, not because the effect is bad.
I think MO nuking had very little to do with it not being popular. After all, Melusine is still very much around. It's just that Devotion generally provides more benefits now than taking out one single card, no matter how immediate, unconditional, etc etc it is. And I don't feel like it was that recent, either. I think it's been a while since KH heyday.
Unprotected Syanna, once again, doesn't need a KH to be countered. And its "passive presence" ensures that people have a choice to break Devotion for the sake of countering one single key card, if they find themselves facing and getting owned by that one card over and over and have no other means of countering it. And the meta will fluctuate, as it does, until it becomes unviable to include KH again, as it is now. I see nothing wrong with that. Nor do I see KH as "one card to rule them all" or whatever, that Gwent revolves around.
Aight, no one, not even the biggest and fuchsiest Syanna connoisseur would consider slamjamming her at 3 power and no defender, it wasn't the case even before Bear Witchers and Circles of Life, and I wasn't even suggesting it, so you're shoving a huge strawman in my face here (or maybe just misreading, I'm not sure).
Realistically, it's possible for many decks and just leader abilities to take her to 6-8 (and maybe shielded/veiled) on deploy. It's a good, fair strength - she still doesn't strictly require a KH to be countered, and is perfectly counterable with stuff like Simlas shenanigans, or mixing damage pings with Warfare, or something with DB Sorceress, or Bekker's so I imagine she would never become that one owning card. But also that requires adequate preparation and timing, comparable to the effort of a Syanna player, which gives her a decent chance to survive, so it's a fairly balanced situation. Which in reality means, were she to become popular, people wouldn't bother with that and just nuke her instead, because it's just that much easier, more reliable, and one-sided.
Now, about "countering that one card"...I still think, that if KH/YI weren't around, devs would be much more careful with what they release/allow to exist in the game. Would even maybe need to actually hotfix stuff, because in absence of the universal solution, imbalance would become a much more pressing matter. It's a win-win.
No, I disagree. I'd bet if you asked a thousand NG players why or why they don't play Skellen and Damien anymore, very few, if any, would say "But it's because Korathi Heatwave is in the game, of course! Duh!"
Okay, first of all, a lot of NG players aren't especially creative and all that aware of the game mechanics. I don't like it, but it's true. It's weird, considering how it's a faction of DIY decks that never play out the same way. So it's not like a thousand NG players are necessarily a good indicator of anything.
Even still...
Their answers would be something along the lines of "because of all the control". And, realistically, hardest kinds of control, because who even runs "weak" control anymore? But even something as hard and instant as Skjordal or Anseis wouldn't be able to keep Elder Bears out of meta on their own. Because at the very least, there's Joachim, and considering just how good NG thinning is, playing Elder Bears with him isn't a super ridiculous/inconsistent idea. There might be other ways, too. But none of that matters, because again, the second people start playing them unironically, meta will swing back towards HK...or, possibly, all-NG ladder, because of Invo. Could go either (or both) ways.
I guess this becomes an issue in long conversations, where the debate is fractured between quotes and each person "hears" it differently. Maybe that one paragraph wasn't about last say, but Last Say was a prominent point of discussion earlier in that comment, so in my mind it naturally tied in.
Right. So let's not lose focus anymore.
Here's the most important question of this thread that you haven't really answered yet: what cards that aren't KH/Invo can make 14-on-deploy, no-status Damien completely non-viable while still being a reasonable part of a reasonable well-rounded deck? (not accepting "he's bad" for an answer again, he's not, not counting the whole "not surviving" thing)
