Request to (re)evaluate all motorcycle's roll & lean angles

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Hard to tell. I should do some testing then. I mostly avoid the bikes because they don't feel natural. The physics are kinda weird, like the center of mass is elsewhere. But first thing that comes to mind is they lack response. Bikes are dynamic vehicles. Even a single cylinder sumo, that won't go past 130kph will hit 50kph with front wheel in air before you blink and do a stoppie on a dime while a 1.5ton muscle car that can go 300kph is still winding up it's V8 at stoplight.

Second is slow speed maneuvering. Especially the naked and adventure bikes should be able to navigate most footpaths at slow speeds, but somehow they all feel like they have the turning radius of a road race bike.

What else i'd like to see? Extra controls. Automagic cars are gas and brake.. motorcycles not so simple.
W (gas) + S (front brake) should start a burnout and do a drift takeoff if your release brake at full RPM or wheelie / loop at half.
W (gas) + space (rear brake) should allow to rev up engine and either do fast takeoff, wheelie or loop depending on RPM.
space tap (rear brake) while riding should drop a gear and allow you to drift or wheelie depending on your RPM.
 
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Hard to tell. I should do some testing then. I mostly avoid the bikes because they don't feel natural. The physics are kinda weird, like the center of mass is elsewhere. But first thing that comes to mind is they lack response. Bikes are dynamic vehicles. Even a single cylinder sumo, that won't go past 130kph will hit 50kph with front wheel in air before you blink and do a stoppie on a dime while a 1.5ton muscle car that can go 300 is still revving up its V8.

Second is slow speed maneuvering. Especially the naked and adventure bikes should be able to navigate most footpaths at slow speeds, but somehow the all feel like they have the turning radius of a road race bike.
Thanks for posting this!

I really don't know bikes, learned to drive cars IRL when I was 9 or 10 years old (lived in a town but there were good backroads close enough) and I suppose there's something I picked up from there where things feel intuitive in games or they don't. For bikes in CP 2077 the turning radius bothered me from the beginning also leaning but I couldn't really say anything as I don't have experience on that. And that left me wondering if some shortcuts in design made them in a way easy to approach and but in other hand perhaps unintuitive.

There are few things I can think.
AFAIK bikes are the vehicle type for those on PC and keyboard along few FWD cars.
Developers in general might be afraid of too steep of a learning curve for players (your previous post was insightful in this regard)
Something I'm not sure is related, on console, even on One X CP 2077 engine can't stream world around player fast enough to match actual speed with speed on speedometer and that I think may cause some issues with physics engine related to bumps - > bouncing and that. This is something I'm afraid has to stay, as faster streaming would require less detail and shorter drawing distance and I rather take the detail we have.

Something I haven't actually tried but what would make bikes more unique and match their IRL possibilities would be standing burnout turn and I can't think of any game that actually enables that? What had to chance in CP 2077 to make that happen and would that have positive impact to your experience with CP 2077?
 
Standing burnouts and takeoff wheelies are amusing but of little use. Starting a drift or popping a wheelie at speed can majorly improve the experience. It should allow taking tighter turns while slowing down or accelerate faster out of them as well as scaling small obstacles like sports cars or barriers.
 
Wrote earlier about always being a car guy, but even I know Isle of Man TT and it's reputation as bloodbath.

But I want to get back to your video. It was great that you had that text commentary there as it's not easy to convey and stress certain things, say video capture of car racing game, they tend to open up to people who already are familiar with the game / racing games because it's easy to get there what is happening, control movements and that and things that contribute to experience like your comment acceleration on bump on the road, that's very important information as from cars, you think it's about what kind bump? What kind of drivetrain my car has? effect of weight transfer is entirely different compared to cars and your video explains that very well.

I'm on Xbox One X so no mods for me but regardless, CDRP can get good feel from your video what kind of experience they game can provide, even though via mods and possible quirks they may have in their vehicle physics, other modders can get an idea how damn hypnotic certain experiences can be. Damn you, now even I want additional race story in game to go with The Beast, but this time on bikes. :p

Something I thought, if you could make additional commentary or video is about learning curve on that mod vs. base game and highlight work / risk / reward. There's certain fallacy, make something look good, like NFS: Heat and drift button mechanics, which was frankly really lame and in Horizon 4 people, me included were pulling that kind of stuff without that and I think most ridiculous thing was that it was easier to pull something like 360 while driving in Horizon because you weren't tied to button, which actually decided how you play the game. Learning curve and beating that was that made that fun and in the end you everybody could take all the similar screencaps from impressive drifts as in NFS: Heat.
In the 80ties they used to show footage of motorcycle races through the countryside. Never knew it was from that particular event. They stopped showing them, apparently because it went foul lots of times. Our government does a preem job withholding real life footage they don't like showing, from the general public.

The mod that was used in the latest video, consists out of .ini files for the bike. Was searching for the files like since forever, but could never find them. Heard other players talking about .ini files on Nexus, so knew the game had them.

Normally, a game on Steam, has its .ini files right there out in the open. But not Cyberpunk. Only a modder can get them out. But even with the mod, could still not find them. Discovered later that it was still needed for the files to be assigned with the corresponding app. Once I did that, they appeared.

Went in there and then I saw it. The .inis for the bikes their lean angle.

Noticed that they were set kinda low, so step by step started to set them higher and higher, until I found them correct. Can tell you that the differences vary remarkably between the bikes leaning over correctly and sufficiently, and how they lean in the vanilla game.

The bikes, "work", a hell of a lot better, the "risk", is a lot higher, a lot higher, can see that in the latest video, and the, "reward", consists out of a colossal raise in motorcycle riding experience and immersion. Can see that too in the latest vid.

Having bikes that now lean over correctly, has on the other hand, sort of, explained as to, "why?", they were set up like that to begin with in the vanilla game. If I were to guess, to accommodate the mouse & keyboard players.

As those players always input 100% instantly, could imagine that the bikes would lean over max instantly, making it look very awkwardly and unnatural. Besides, could also make the bikes slip during the turn, making them even uncontrollable. As there are more "car players" then "motorcycle players", presumably, it was anticipated it would be best to make the bikes more rigid to cover all the players.

Could ask CDPR if any of this is in any way correct, but if it is, then the vanilla bikes their lean angle will remain as is.
 
The bikes, "work", a hell of a lot better, the "risk", is a lot higher, a lot higher, can see that in the latest video, and the, "reward", consists out of a colossal raise in motorcycle riding experience and immersion. Can see that too in the latest vid.

Having bikes that now lean over correctly, has on the other hand, sort of, explained as to, "why?", they were set up like that to begin with in the vanilla game. If I were to guess, to accommodate the mouse & keyboard players.

As those players always input 100% instantly, could imagine that the bikes would lean over max instantly, making it look very awkwardly and unnatural. Besides, could also make the bikes slip during the turn, making them even uncontrollable. As there are more "car players" then "motorcycle players", presumably, it was anticipated it would be best to make the bikes more rigid to cover all the players.

Could ask CDPR if any of this is in any way correct, but if it is, then the vanilla bikes their lean angle will remain as is.
Thanks!

Players on keyboard wouldn't necessarily be messed, this has been done in a car game Forza Horizon 4, some of fastest players out there were on keyboard. How developers managed to pull that off, was at least partially on steering lock. It went like on controller / Pro setting player had 50% of radius available, normal was 25 or 30% and those on keyboard had IIRC even more limited lock to compensate for on/off nature of keyboard. I think developers also had some other things there, but there weren't different physics, but input was just filtered different ways depending from input method. To what degree that could help to make bike physics in vanilla game better, I don't know but I don't see that hopeless at all from technical point of view, it's about if they decide to do that in CP 2077 be that cars or bikes and if they know to do the right things.

Whatever CDPR does, that's on them and that's all that there is to that. For player experience part, what you did there, that was awesome, that's information part, what kind of experience this game can offer. It's important to tell about beating the learning curve to get there what you did on your video. For me it's like not to get it, it has to be like person with no soul or something, but reality I think is that we can't know who reads these topics if any. Challenge can be fun, taming a bike can be as great as taming cars, and what comes to bikes there are several options for players available too. It's more about than what it looks like, that more is about how it feels like, key is to keep things intuitive and I think leaning angles and turning radius discussed here, some physical quirks you told in video, I think that's awesome and show how these things can contribute positive player experience, longevity of game and suspension of disbelief and all that.

Really appreciate as for reasons I have explained earlier, this isn't anything I could really do but I get it via video and text and think maybe my gut feeling was right regarding bikes, even though they are strange vehicle type for me.

(y)
 
Thanks!

Players on keyboard wouldn't necessarily be messed, this has been done in a car game Forza Horizon 4, some of fastest players out there were on keyboard. How developers managed to pull that off, was at least partially on steering lock. It went like on controller / Pro setting player had 50% of radius available, normal was 25 or 30% and those on keyboard had IIRC even more limited lock to compensate for on/off nature of keyboard. I think developers also had some other things there, but there weren't different physics, but input was just filtered different ways depending from input method. To what degree that could help to make bike physics in vanilla game better, I don't know but I don't see that hopeless at all from technical point of view, it's about if they decide to do that in CP 2077 be that cars or bikes and if they know to do the right things.

Whatever CDPR does, that's on them and that's all that there is to that. For player experience part, what you did there, that was awesome, that's information part, what kind of experience this game can offer. It's important to tell about beating the learning curve to get there what you did on your video. For me it's like not to get it, it has to be like person with no soul or something, but reality I think is that we can't know who reads these topics if any. Challenge can be fun, taming a bike can be as great as taming cars, and what comes to bikes there are several options for players available too. It's more about than what it looks like, that more is about how it feels like, key is to keep things intuitive and I think leaning angles and turning radius discussed here, some physical quirks you told in video, I think that's awesome and show how these things can contribute positive player experience, longevity of game and suspension of disbelief and all that.

Really appreciate as for reasons I have explained earlier, this isn't anything I could really do but I get it via video and text and think maybe my gut feeling was right regarding bikes, even though they are strange vehicle type for me.

(y)
I seem to remember vaguely this very old driving game for the PC. It consisted out of 1st person driving.

The character was holding the wheel with both hands. On the wheel were sliders. When you pressed and held a tap to turn left or right, the character would turn the wheel accordingly, until you let go. When you pressed and held the tap for the other direction, the character would turn the wheel back to straight again.

Thought at the time that was an excellent control system specifically for mouse & keyboard players. Always wondered why that system was never adopted by the gaming industry.

A handful of CDPR associates mentioned that they DO read these forums so... they can always change their minds concerning the lean angles of the vanilla bikes, when they see and hear that other game devs solved the lean angle issue in a more creative way.
 
Yeah, keyboard is not a problem. Just need a decent "translator". IMHO just holding to turn would feel unresponsive. Converting tap length and frequency gives more information. User tapping faster means he needs faster response, user tapping slowly means hes driving leisurely and the control can be adjusted slowly:
dybnamic_kbd_steering.png

Something like pic. rel. OFC it would be a bit complicated with the response being smoothed and rate change being non-linear, progressive and dependent on the actual control. But the bottom line is, the faster user uses keyboard, the faster the control needs to respond.
 
Yeah, keyboard is not a problem. Just need a decent "translator". IMHO just holding to turn would feel unresponsive. Converting tap length and frequency gives more information. User tapping faster means he needs faster response, user tapping slowly means hes driving leisurely and the control can be adjusted slowly:View attachment 11268502
Something like pic. rel. OFC it would be a bit complicated with the response being smoothed and rate change being non-linear, progressive and dependent on the actual control. But the bottom line is, the faster user uses keyboard, the faster the control needs to respond.
Have a demo here that shows how the bikes behave with raised lean angle deflection, using a mouse and keyboard.

 
Have a demo here that shows how the bikes behave with raised lean angle deflection, using a mouse and keyboard.

It says "This video is unavailable".
 
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While I absolutely adore riding the motorcycles in the game (only using the cars for storage or some roleplaying), my first thought was: "the people that designed the mechanics haven't really ridden a motorcycle before."

Some of the problems in first person are easily mitigated through proper looking ahead, which is sadly better with the mouse than the stick, but kbm controls could do with an actual modifier button (right/left click on mouse, maybe?) to add steps to the turns, so it removes the need for constant A/D key tapping.
 
Well? Will you tell me why the bike leaned in the opposite direction?
No I wont :p I don't have single theory about that, could be wheels, could be that 360 is actually 180. For me that it looked horribly unintuitive and twitchy and lot of work even with lower angle told everything about what sort of experience riding would be and I don't see people enjoying that.

It only means that CDPR / modders need to work with more things than just those ini files and consider implementing some sort of input filtering for kbm like I mentioned earlier.
 
While I absolutely adore riding the motorcycles in the game (only using the cars for storage or some roleplaying), my first thought was: "the people that designed the mechanics haven't really ridden a motorcycle before."

Some of the problems in first person are easily mitigated through proper looking ahead, which is sadly better with the mouse than the stick, but kbm controls could do with an actual modifier button (right/left click on mouse, maybe?) to add steps to the turns, so it removes the need for constant A/D key tapping.
A slider for left/right, accelerate/decelerate, like I mentioned before, would do the trick, I think.
 
I was thinking about this while driving the newly acquired Jackie Arch today and I think lowering the rear brake power and providing more rear wheel grip would feel more "realistic".
In fact, it would negate/reduce that the rear of the bike is drifting all the time when accelerating (there is no way that a bike can "burn the rear tyre" all the time when you turn the throttle... in "real", it's a wheeling garanteed whatever the bike), turning and braking (which is not realistic at all and above all, not fun). Just that would make the ride a bit more realistic and "fun" in my opinion (not perfect, but way better if you ask me).
That would avoid the "bar of soap" effect if it is said in English.
 
I was thinking about this while driving the newly acquired Jackie Arch today and I think lowering the rear brake power and providing more rear wheel grip would feel more "realistic".
In fact, it would negate/reduce that the rear of the bike is drifting all the time when accelerating (there is no way that a bike can "burn the rear tyre" all the time when you turn the throttle... in "real", it's a wheeling garanteed whatever the bike), turning and braking (which is not realistic at all and above all, not fun). Just that would make the ride a bit more realistic and "fun" in my opinion (not perfect, but way better if you ask me).
That would avoid the "bar of soap" effect if it is said in English.
The Arch wheels slipping during acceleration and the wheels blocking during braking, are caused by the Burj Khalifa high torque and brake torque it was given. If the torque and brake torque is reduced, the slipping and blocking is also reduced.

The Arch drifting through and or out of corners is caused by the way too low lean angle deflection, that makes the bike behave like a car. The game makes a calculation that where a bike does not lean over for some reason, it then has to work those forces the same way a car does. So the bike starts to drift.
 
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