[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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Hmm, the comment being responded to was about some type of continuation providing a clear resolution to the Relic and 6 month problem.

As noted, we know there is a way in the game to convert an organic meatbag into a digital construct, place this construct on a chip, slot this chip into the head of another organic meatbag and replace it's consciousness with this digital construct.

This working process isn't used on V in any of the endings. There are similarities to it in certain endings but they all differ from what was known to work. It then follows using this known working process would be an option worth exploring. A possibility to reach a resolution.

I suppose the other angle is V is chasing after a process not known to work in the first place. The differences between it and what does work are significant enough to matter. Yet it's presented as a resignation of sorts. We tried V but 6 months is the best you can get. They tried something they didn't know worked. While what did work wasn't attempted.

It's like tossing an item priced at five units of currency in a shopping cart when you only have two units of currency available, attempting to complete the purchase and being told you don't have enough currency. You tried to buy this item and failed because you couldn't afford it. It wouldn't make sense to view the problem as unresovable. The solution is clear as day. Acquire three more units of currency.

In this plan V is asking permission from a megacorp, being told what to do and taking them at their word to honor it.

Even if it had been necessary to convert V right then and there to preserve as much as possible nothing prohibits using a copy. Convert V and store them as an engram. Make a copy of this engram and stuff it back into V's own body. The original body version of V could then track down the other ingredients before placing their own stored engram into this new body (bit of a mindfuck, I know).

Plus, It could be argued V should have stopped asking for permission. Don't ask them. Tell them. Would they listen out of the kindness of their heart? It's a megacorp so probably not. V can cause a lot of damage in 2 weeks though. Imagine 6 months. Arasaka has little stake in whether V lives a day, 6 months or 40 years. However, they might settle to avoid the court costs. It's called leverage.
No, we don't know that it works. We've seen it work when the chip was activated by being shot in the right way. All other references except one are to the design not working, so V cannot simply be put into a new body as things stand. And the other one I'm not going to spoil but does not apply to V.

It might work *in the future*. But the whole premise of the game is that it doesn't work now. So you might use that for an expansion.
 
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There is "spoiler" alert in the title so in my opinion:
- It work at first for V due to the bullet in the head : V died, chip was damaged and begin to work in an unexpected way (maybe not reproducible).
- It work for Saburo because Yorinobu is his son (DNA proximity). And maybe also that Arasaka have used what they learned on V when they rip out the chip from his/her head (kind of "lab-rat") to make it possible for Saburo.

(and also because at the end, V is not really "V", but a damn "unic mess" mixed from Johnny and V)
 
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No, we don't know that it works.
It can work for Johnny in the Star/Sun. It supposedly works for Saburo in the Devil. It can even be mentioned for V in the Devil. It just so happens it's quickly glossed over and discarded at the time (by exploration I didn't mean mere mention of it). How convenient. V doesn't know why and how it works. Lacking a full understanding of why and how it works doesn't mean it isn't viable.

It'd be one thing if V wasn't privy to the information while it was relevant. In the Star/Sun Alt explains the choice before V (or Johnny) commits. When it's brought up in the Devil for V it depends on whether you're buying what Arasaka is selling.
(and also because at the end, V is not really "V", but a damn "unic mess" mixed from Johnny and V)
That's debatable. The idea it's no longer V fundamentally boils down to V changed form in some way and ceased being V. Where is the line drawn in the sand there? What constitutes enough change for V to cease being V?
 
That's debatable. The idea it's no longer V fundamentally boils down to V changed form in some way and ceased being V. Where is the line drawn in the sand there? What constitutes enough change for V to cease being V?
I'm not talking about "V" in personality/consciousness/soul/... (which is and remains debatable).
I'm taliking about biology/ADN/body side (it's a mess... like V's immune system who attack his/her own brain). It's why in the Devil ending, V is really "sick"... Color vision, hallucinatory voices, puzzles (the rubix cube), running on the mat...

And it work for Saburo, but the "true" question is :
If Yorinobu wanted to return in his body, it would be possible ?
Honestly, I suppose that it's the same as V, nope. His body is no longer "his body" but his father's. Once modified, the body can't return the "original" state, it's not reversible.
To make an analogy, it would be like grafting an organ of an incompatible person onto someone. With heavy medication it may work for a little while, but after a while the organ will be "rejected" for sure.
 
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I'm not talking about "V" in personality/consciousness/soul/... (which is and remains debatable).
I'm taliking about biology/ADN/body side (it's a mess... like V's immune system who attack his/her own brain). It's why in the Devil ending, V is really "sick"... Color vision, hallucinatory voices, puzzles (the rubix cube), running on the mat...
And why did these events unfold? V was altered somehow. At what point have they been altered enough to no longer be V? Look at it from a biological perspective, one involving the consciousness or bring the concept of a soul into the mix. It matters not. How far is too far? It applies in every context.
And it work for Saburo, but the "true" question is :
If Yorinobu wanted to return in his body, it would be possible ?
Honestly, I suppose that it's the same as V, nope. His body is no longer "his body" but his father's. Once modified, the body can't return the "original" state, it's not reversible.
Probably not. That would be the point. In every 6 month ending V is attempting to reclaim their own body and kick Johnny out. It's a very different approach.
 
And why did these events unfold? V was altered somehow. At what point have they been altered enough to no longer be V? Look at it from a biological perspective, one involving the consciousness or bring the concept of a soul into the mix. It matters not. How far is too far? It applies in every context.
By an unexpected functioning of the Relic (because it was damaged by "Dex's bullet"), during few weeks : the time V wake up in the landfill and reach Mikoshi (also amplified by the "heavy" medication, whatever the pills...)
What is important, it's not really "when" something changed, but more that at the moment where V find a way (whatever the ending), it's already too late.
Maybe it was reversible just after V wake up in the landfill, but impossible to know...
The body is the key factor in this transaction.
DNA reconfiguration by the Relic has progressed to far. Added to an agressive, invasive medications, the body's immune system attack its own neurons.
After I transfert your construct into your body, you will die. It is inevitable. It is imminent.
In short : "Sorry, too late..." and nothing to do with soul/consciousness/whatever (And about soul, when V reach Mikoshi, Alt used the Soulkiller, so theoretically, according to Alt there is no "soul" remaining in the equation)
(The same in Devil ending, but no one seem to want explain it to V... or if they planned to explain something to V one day...)
 
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By an unexpected functioning of the Relic (because it was damaged by "Dex's bullet"), during few weeks : the time V wake up in the landfill and reach Mikoshi (also amplified by the "heavy" medication, whatever the pills...)
What is important, it's not really "when" something changed, but more that at the moment where V find a way (whatever the ending), it's already too late.
Maybe it was reversible just after V wake up in the landfill, but impossible to know...
Perhaps there is some confusion. My question asking how far is too far has to do with the notion V isn't V anymore. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with V seeking out a separate body and chip. It's it's own line of discussion.

Anyways, the other line of thought is V attempted to reverse the process they underwent with the Relic. What they didn't do was try to reproduce it. The only mention of repoducing it appears in the Devil ending. There it's quickly discarded and the justification for doing so hinges entirely on V trusting Arasaka. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
In short : "Sorry, too late..." and nothing to do with soul/consciousness/whatever (And about soul, when V reach Mikoshi, Alt used the Soulkiller, so theoretically, according to Alt there is no "soul" remaining in the equation)
(The same in Devil ending, but no one seem to want explain it to V... or if they planned to explain something to V one day...)
As noted, that was a separate line of discussion. This part of your post actually addresses it. In some capacity anyway.

As a short response, Alt claiming the soul is "lost" is an interpretation. I don't see how she could possibly know this is the case. In fact, depending on the context of the word "soul" it's unknowable.

The main point was the argument is V is changing form so they're no longer V. There are a lot of ways to shred that argument to pieces. Whether it's being made in the context of V's consciousness or biology. Whether that consciousness is seen as purely a product of that biology or something external to it. Again, nothing definitive but sound arguments against it.
 
Anyways, the other line of thought is V attempted to reverse the process they underwent with the Relic. What they didn't do was try to reproduce it. The only mention of repoducing it appears in the Devil ending. There it's quickly discarded and the justification for doing so hinges entirely on V trusting Arasaka. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
Ok, so yeah in the devil ending, Arasaka reproduce the processus "easily" due to the DNA proximity between Saburo and Yorinobu, Arasaka already have all the technology and the knowledge about the Relic and also because Saburo/Hanako certainly invested all the Araska's ressources to do it.
So at condition that Arasaka said all the truth to V (and that V believe them), V still no one to Arasaka (according to Goro, they already "forgot" him/her) and Saburo probably won't spend "billions" of eddies to only save V's life. So "if" it's possible, it will require time and certainely more than 6 months (hence the "Mikoshi's contract").
In all the other endings, no one mention that it's possible (nor even conceivable) with the ressources/knowlegedes they have, nor Alt, nor Mr Blue Eyes. At least, to do it in less than 6 months (If it's possible but if it's take a year... unfortunately, that doesn't change anything for V).

In my opinion, the only way to really "save" V's life (other than stay as engram) is passing by Arasaka and wait in Mikoshi. And keeping fingers crossed that they will keep their words...which is not guaranteed :)
 
So at condition that Arasaka said all the truth to V (and that V believe them), V still no one to Arasaka (according to Goro, they already "forgot" him/her) and Saburo probably won't spend "billions" of eddies to only save V's life. So "if" it's possible, it will require time and certainely more than 6 months (hence the "Mikoshi's contract").
They don't have a reason to care about V. This is where this particular ending left much to be desired. Once V executes the proposal put forth by Hanako they've lost all leverage. They have little to offer Arasaka. Chances are the only reason Arasaka didn't pounce on V is because Hanako saw them as a convenient tool to clean up the mess created by Yorinobu. Not to mention a useful guinea pig to shed further light on the Relic program.

V walks into it. Hook, line and sinker. They make no attempts to deviate. Even though opportunities are presented to do so (Yorinobu, Hanako and V in a room... hmm...). It's setup in a way where V accepts "we can't do that right now" as true.
In all the other endings, no one mention that it's possible (nor even conceivable) with the ressources/knowlegedes they have, nor Alt, nor Mr Blue Eyes. At least, to do it in less than 6 months (If it's possible but if it's take a year... unfortunately, that doesn't change anything for V).
There is a difference between avoiding an option because you lack the resources vs never considering it. I suppose it could be argued at that moment V was so fixated on fixing what they had they never considered outright replacing it.
In my opinion, the only way to really "save" V's life (other than stay as engram) is passing by Arasaka and wait in Mikoshi. And keeping fingers crossed that they will keep their words...which is not guaranteed
A reasonable interpretation. My intention was never to make it about being right vs wrong. It's more about entertaining the alternatives.
 
Perhaps there is some confusion. My question asking how far is too far has to do with the notion V isn't V anymore. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with V seeking out a separate body and chip. It's it's own line of discussion.

Anyways, the other line of thought is V attempted to reverse the process they underwent with the Relic. What they didn't do was try to reproduce it. The only mention of repoducing it appears in the Devil ending. There it's quickly discarded and the justification for doing so hinges entirely on V trusting Arasaka. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

As noted, that was a separate line of discussion. This part of your post actually addresses it. In some capacity anyway.

As a short response, Alt claiming the soul is "lost" is an interpretation. I don't see how she could possibly know this is the case. In fact, depending on the context of the word "soul" it's unknowable.

The main point was the argument is V is changing form so they're no longer V. There are a lot of ways to shred that argument to pieces. Whether it's being made in the context of V's consciousness or biology. Whether that consciousness is seen as purely a product of that biology or something external to it. Again, nothing definitive but sound arguments against it.


the main reason its not explored in the sun/star ending is because its against the philosophy of Alt/johnny. Johnny is only helping V because he believes he is invading his body and stealing free will. Alt is only helping because Johnny asked, and possibly her own guilt for the process, and because its V's body, once alt believes its Johnny's body, she leaves the decision to Johnny. With alt/johnny, him replacing another was probably never on the table.

Its also true that the process isn't perfected/understood, but its probable that alt could solve the issue given access to all the data and the first successful patient (v/johnny)

neither person is likely to have allowed, or promoted V replicating the process on another person. Arasaka has no such beliefs, and it is actually the simplest answer. They slightly complicate it by making it uncertain, and requiring V to sign over their rights, but in arasaka ending they appear to have mostly figured out how to properly do it.
 
the main reason its not explored in the sun/star ending is because its against the philosophy of Alt/johnny. Johnny is only helping V because he believes he is invading his body and stealing free will. Alt is only helping because Johnny asked, and possibly her own guilt for the process, and because its V's body, once alt believes its Johnny's body, she leaves the decision to Johnny. With alt/johnny, him replacing another was probably never on the table.
Not sure if guilt is factor there, in the end it was IMO Alt gaining access to Mikoshi. That's not to say Alt doesn't have human behavior like actions, like killing everyone in Arasaka facility in Star. It's difficult to see other motivation than revenge. It will take some time even for Arasaka to replace those assets.
neither person is likely to have allowed, or promoted V replicating the process on another person. Arasaka has no such beliefs, and it is actually the simplest answer. They slightly complicate it by making it uncertain, and requiring V to sign over their rights, but in arasaka ending they appear to have mostly figured out how to properly do it.
V is clearly in bad state, can't solve the cube, physical exercise fails and those questions, writers didn't pulled them from their ass. It's rather that they are uncertain about what comes back.

Manipulating V to become engram and thus property, that depends of each players take on how their V perceives the situation.
Takemura: "You overstate your importance. To the Arasakas, I fear you are nobody - were nobody."
Hellman: "The Arasakas have become gods. You are nothing to them. Insignificant."

Those could be seen manipulative tactic or it could be seen likely scenario based on that Arasaka didn't care about consent of people they captured and prisoned in Mikoshi, that Arasaka could have just done that to V when V was being operated and not bother with contract thing at all.

I really like how game uses unreliable narrators. V gets what Goro or Hellman thinks of Saburo and Hanako are thinking and players decide what their V's take on that.
 
Those could be seen manipulative tactic or it could be seen likely scenario based on that Arasaka didn't care about consent of people they captured and prisoned in Mikoshi, that Arasaka could have just done that to V when V was being operated and not bother with contract thing at all.
If I remember, in the Arasaka contract (and also said by Arasaka girl to Lizzie's "boyfriend"), engrams can't and won't be modified. But I think, in Mikoshi (Arasaka Tower), you can find some shards who is clearly writed that Arasaka make experimentations/modifications on engrams...
So the contracts (like Goro said), are only for the living poeple and (lukily/unfortunately) engrams aren't considered as alive (slaw void).
 
the main reason its not explored in the sun/star ending is because its against the philosophy of Alt/johnny. Johnny is only helping V because he believes he is invading his body and stealing free will. Alt is only helping because Johnny asked, and possibly her own guilt for the process, and because its V's body, once alt believes its Johnny's body, she leaves the decision to Johnny. With alt/johnny, him replacing another was probably never on the table.
That's a suitable explanation for why Johnny and Alt would be philosophically against it. V could still ask and be told no. :) Alt and Johnny could choose to make an exception. If V is told no they could still attempt it via other means later down the line.

Plus, it's a little odd to say "no V, we won't help you get a new body because that's wrong" when Johnny can do exactly that via both pathways.
I really like how game uses unreliable narrators. V gets what Goro or Hellman thinks of Saburo and Hanako are thinking and players decide what their V's take on that.
I do too. In the specific case of the Devil I question whether it offered much of an advantage. Simply because what was really going on there was just a tiny bit too obvious.
 
If I remember, in the Arasaka contract (and also said by Arasaka girl to Lizzie's "boyfriend"), engrams can't and won't be modified. But I think, in Mikoshi (Arasaka Tower), you can find some shards who is clearly writed that Arasaka make experimentations/modifications on engrams...
So the contracts (like Goro said), are only for the living poeple and (lukily/unfortunately) engrams aren't considered as alive (slaw void).
It comes up several places that what Arasaka say they do with relics is different what they really do. IIRC while contract was brought up in discussion between Lizzie's boyfriend and Arasaka presentative, in English version at least I recall Arasaka presentative being ambiguous like contract says that but... without saying exactly that. I recall shards you mention and they are also consistent with what Alt says about nature of Mikoshi as prison.

Arasaka doing stuff like that, we see them kidnapping Alt past. In 2077 if V sends Jackie's body to Vic Arasaka just takes it and revive him as engram to extract information, Johnny is another case as well. It's not that he is only unreliable narrator because his personality but it's rather weird that he doesn't remember that Morgan Blackhand was on the scene too when they blew up Arasaka tower. Game doesn't say if Silverhand's memories were edited but it's curious thing.
I do too. In the specific case of the Devil I question whether it offered much of an advantage. Simply because what was really going on there was just a tiny bit too obvious.
I'm not sure we understand each others here.
 
I'm not sure we understand each others here.
The first part of the response was meant to say it's refreshing for a game to present it's information in a way where the player can't blindly assume it's reliable. A lot of instances where this concept comes up in the game are handled well.

Mention of the Devil was to say the concept loses much of it's value unless each of the available possibilities appears as if it could make sense. I don't think this is true in the Devil. The events in that ending and what is known of Arasaka provides overwhelming support for one possibility. Arasaka never intended to honor the agreements made with V. The possibility this isn't true is there but is so unlikely it may as well not be.
Ah I forgot about this thread. After all this time, it shows that only a small percentage were happy with the endings
Eh, I think it's more accurate to say the endings had mixed reception.
 
It does show that only 12.4% actually liked the endings, so if it is "mixed", its definitely not leaning towards people liking the endings
The trouble is the way the poll is setup. If the goal was to collect suitable data to determine whether the endings were liked or not the poll isn't setup properly to do so.
 
The first part of the response was meant to say it's refreshing for a game to present it's information in a way where the player can't blindly assume it's reliable. A lot of instances where this concept comes up in the game are handled well.

Mention of the Devil was to say the concept loses much of it's value unless each of the available possibilities appears as if it could make sense. I don't think this is true in the Devil. The events in that ending and what is known of Arasaka provides overwhelming support for one possibility. Arasaka never intended to honor the agreements made with V. The possibility this isn't true is there but is so unlikely it may as well not be.
It's about degree and for me it's really plausible scenario that they they just abandon V not wanting to put any more resources for solving V's problem and Mikoshi option isn't really their goal, they could have done that if they wanted to, as they are as seen many times over in game, about consent if they really want something.

Saburo has strategy to plan, first step was propaganda, what V can see on tv. There are resources, troops, gear and supply lines to think to form strategy and tactical plans to make to carry out that strategy not forgetting to political game and running Arasaka corporation, though Hanako might be more involved in the latter, but it's still Saburo who calls the shots. In the big picture, it's as plausible that that they aren't manipulating V to take the contract and become their property, rather than making an excuse for not giving a damn any further.

Don't think we can know for sure either way.
 
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The trouble is the way the poll is setup. If the goal was to collect suitable data to determine whether the endings were liked or not the poll isn't setup properly to do so.

True, but again, those who voted that they were content with what was provided is a pitifully low percentage. If everyone liked and wanted no other endings, then that number would be higher.
 
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