Back after 6 months - Still no balance in sight

[ShinAkira00]

I left the game for a bit and it's the holidays so I figured now would be a good time to get back in, assuming there have been balance updates.

Unsurprisingly not much has changed. SK it seems have been given more busted tools, I don't recall Fucusya so I'm assuming she's a new addition but my first glance was this card was broken, same for several additions including Saskia from ST and NG with Ardal. SY versatility with Coins have remained unchanged.

I decided to play a few games to get to the lower ranks just too see whether I was overestimating these cards and nope I wasn't. The exact cards I expected and they were there, now auto include on the ladder. Just a new line of broken cards to replace the ones before it but the ladder is still the same. MO got....Regis? Ummm...ok and Arachas Queen which I can tell can be abused though I didn't encounter it much...NR got patience support.

As I see it, the devs have no intention of balancing the game and its the same ppl in the forum making suggestions that the devs will never make because a broken game is what they need it to be. Ppl get frustrated, they make suggestions and the game remains in the conversation until the next batch of broken cards. Well time to uninstall again, I guess I'll try again in a year and if nothing then just accept the game for what it is and leave it behind. The lore is interesting but there's no strategy anymore, it's become so binary that you can determine the outcome by seeing the opposing leader ability (which tells you it's the same deck you say 20 times already) and the hand you drew.

 

[Gimme_a_break]

There are cards, that are ridiculous, but this is not a new thing. Devs always take their time (usually a couple of months, even though people start complaining about their imbalance days/weeks after they've been released) to nerf these. Not sure why it always takes them that long - is it because there are no easy ways of balancing them without risking the card becoming dead just weeks after being introduced, or they want to have them seeing more play time before deciding whether the players' complaints are justified. So eventually this game is like a never ending beta, where players are actually the testers. And this is not necessarily a bad thing, because it's not possible for CDPR to discover all the broken combos, that they've "accidentally" created by releasing new cards. Sooner rather than later players develop 2-3 decks, that stand out in terms of win rate and this is when the impression, that there's no balance appears. But it's not just the game or devs fault. The players are also to be blamed. Most people are hardcore netdeckers, and they will use or exploit all the broken combos, because it's an easy way of winning, and therefore also contributing to the overall impression, that there's no balance in most of the matches.

 

[CallMeHoot]

Devs always take their time (usually a couple of months, even though people start complaining about their imbalance days/weeks after they've been released) to nerf these. Not sure why it always takes them that long

Just on this point, I've played a lot of competitive games over the years and the ones that lose steam the fastest are those that over-react to every rage post and start flash buffing/nerfing everything people complain about.

Don't get me wrong, certain things probably are a bit too strong and need nerfed, others a bit too weak and need buffed (I'm glad of the Oneriomancy nerf for example, but as I hate unlimited tutors I feel they didn't go far enough) but the best practice is to see how the meta is before making any balance changes. Some people, myself included, totally guilty of it in the past, experience a few bad games and in frustration come to the forums to give it the big 'un and demand some nerf or other.

But...it's mostly rage. Part of the game *is* the meta. it's how you tweak and pilot your deck based on the type of opponents you're facing. If in a 20 game sample, 15 opponents are using some kind of graveyard based deck, then you bet I'll be trying a deck that goes in on graveyard manipulation or at the very least, has some graveyard tech in it.

As long as there is an answer to a deck, a competitive answer (there will always be RNG afterall), I don't mind. It's when the counterplays are 0 and there is a strong card that cannot be interacted with that the problems start. I haven't been back long enough to know what the state of the meta is right now, but I'm hopeful.

 

[Messyr]

Well time to uninstall again, I guess I'll try again in a year

Well, see you in a year then.

 

[ShinAkira00]

Just on this point, I've played a lot of competitive games over the years and the ones that lose steam the fastest are those that over-react to every rage post and start flash buffing/nerfing everything people complain about.

Don't get me wrong, certain things probably are a bit too strong and need nerfed, others a bit too weak and need buffed (I'm glad of the Oneriomancy nerf for example, but as I hate unlimited tutors I feel they didn't go far enough) but the best practice is to see how the meta is before making any balance changes. Some people, myself included, totally guilty of it in the past, experience a few bad games and in frustration come to the forums to give it the big 'un and demand some nerf or other.

But...it's mostly rage. Part of the game *is* the meta. it's how you tweak and pilot your deck based on the type of opponents you're facing. If in a 20 game sample, 15 opponents are using some kind of graveyard based deck, then you bet I'll be trying a deck that goes in on graveyard manipulation or at the very least, has some graveyard tech in it.

As long as there is an answer to a deck, a competitive answer (there will always be RNG afterall), I don't mind. It's when the counterplays are 0 and there is a strong card that cannot be interacted with that the problems start. I haven't been back long enough to know what the state of the meta is right now, but I'm hopeful.

Been playing the game for years. How is this "rage". I've seen the cycle several times and so have you I'm assuming. Are you suggesting these additions are something new? The expansion before did the same thing. Add overturned cards that any novice can tell are too OP which suggests no testing was done. The community complains and then several months or a year later they may or may not nerf them at which point its time for the new cards. Rinse and repeat. But you are saying this has never happened before and is an overreaction?

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

Well, see you in a year then.

Meh, not likely tbh. I'm not that insane lol the fact that there are ppl here still defending the devs lack of testing and just pure laziness is a reflection of what I can expect in the future.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2022

There are cards, that are ridiculous, but this is not a new thing. Devs always take their time (usually a couple of months, even though people start complaining about their imbalance days/weeks after they've been released) to nerf these. Not sure why it always takes them that long - is it because there are no easy ways of balancing them without risking the card becoming dead just weeks after being introduced, or they want to have them seeing more play time before deciding whether the players' complaints are justified. So eventually this game is like a never ending beta, where players are actually the testers. And this is not necessarily a bad thing, because it's not possible for CDPR to discover all the broken combos, that they've "accidentally" created by releasing new cards. Sooner rather than later players develop 2-3 decks, that stand out in terms of win rate and this is when the impression, that there's no balance appears. But it's not just the game or devs fault. The players are also to be blamed. Most people are hardcore netdeckers, and they will use or exploit all the broken combos, because it's an easy way of winning, and therefore also contributing to the overall impression, that there's no balance in most of the matches.

I used to think so but when you realize a day after these cards are released some streamer releases a video showing his/her deck which abuses the broken cards, at that point its not lack of resources on the devs part. It's lack of effort. Most ppl here after seeing the cards announced can immediately determine what's broken. Sure there are a few ppl that exaggerate but more often than not it's quite obvious when something is overtuned. If the players have a better grasp on the game mechanics than the ppl creating it then there's a problem.

 

[CallMeHoot]

Been playing the game for years. How is this "rage". I've seen the cycle several times and so have you I'm assuming. Are you suggesting these additions are something new? The expansion before did the same thing. Add overturned cards that any novice can tell are too OP which suggests no testing was done. The community complains and then several months or a year later they may or may not nerf them at which point its time for the new cards. Rinse and repeat. But you are saying this has never happened before and is an overreaction?

I wasn't suggesting your post was a rage-post, only that the majority of knee-jerk complaints by random forum people are rage-posts and should be taken with a grain of salt.

I've seen many iterations of GWENT, I've been here since the early Beta...the two worst things to happen to the game in my opinion were the introduction of the "Create" mechanic and pretty much everything in the version of the game that existed directly before "Homecoming". The state of GWENT at the minute is far, far superior to how it was during both those times.

It's the nature of it that there will always, I mean always, be a few cards that are overtuned. Finding perfect balance in a game like this is impossible. But fostering a diverse meta where there are many different viable decks (and viable counters to them) is where the game is headed...even if it's not quite there yet, compared to past iterations, they are on the right path.

 

[Mr_Mugglez]

I've never liked removal. I'm more of a pointslam/engine strategy player which ST doesn't have. Dwarfslam was the last time I had fun with Gwent and that was my own deck, more or less. Great fun. I realise not many will share my opinion. I hardly play anymore but had some good memories along the way to my semi-retirement.

 

[Sensimilius]

Yes, Just look at NG, only a single leader being played - Tactical Decision
Reason being that people LOVE abusing the insane combination with Snowdrop it gives for easy wins (when I say "easy wins" I mean unless you are queued against other broken meta decks which I listed below) and pointslams cuz why play smart when you can just get a load of points for no effort.

On top of other broken stuff like SY KoG, ST Milva + Traps, SK Alchemy and Onslaught...

The only thing carrying NR rn is the 4 provision Witcher who spams his shielded self non-stop. If not for that, NR would be unplayable. Not saying I miss the days of Alumni or Meditating Mage spam of course...

** Edit: When I say NR "would be unplayable" I mean in this current meta, but since the meta itself is broken, the problem here is not with NR but within other factions getting some broken stuff that obsoletes so much of the already existing stuff!

 

[rrc]

Yes, Just look at NG, only a single leader being played - Tactical Decision

How did you arrive at this? NG has multiple decks, and I think the most over played and the most OP is the Double Cross. I had faced Enslave 6 as well as Enslave 5 and Enslave-Shupe-Redeyah. NG is the most diverse faction as of now, at least with the leader abilities.

 

[Sensimilius]

How did you arrive at this? NG has multiple decks, and I think the most over played and the most OP is the Double Cross. I had faced Enslave 6 as well as Enslave 5 and Enslave-Shupe-Redeyah. NG is the most diverse faction as of now, at least with the leader abilities.

I am not even saying other decks are bad. But 90% of games vs NG I've played or saw streamers play was vs Tactical Decision. Yes, I've seen Enslave, but I've seen much less of it...

 

[Draconifors]

As a reminder: rule #1 of this forum is kindness and respect. Insults and rudeness will not be tolerated.

One post deleted.

 

[Smith_X]

I think the term balance is hard to justify between one person feeling and another person feeling.

The card game is somewhat similar to RTS in which each unit has a different ability which makes one tribe stronger than the other. Then, the patch comes in to tune up or tune it down. or like Dota in which sometimes one hero is stronger than the other and they have to tune it down or tune up under performing hero / ability.

Currently, the direction of Gwent is pretty great in my opinion. ThorSerpent said he wants to bring back all Archetype and tune it up in a way that it can play in Rank Mode. I guess the balance patch will also nerf the top tier meta deck. This brings the game more balance and is more versatile. Players have a new deck to try. As you can see, Vampires are there and Pirate is also playable. I can't wait to see multiple archetypes per faction on the ladder. I'm looking forward to seeing MO Thrive, ST Harmony, SY Crimes, NR Crew, NR Witcher, NG Ball, NG Lock down get buffed in the future.

I heard recently that CDPR's dev team does not want to focus on making the game only balanced but they want to focus on making the game fun instead. And well, this patch is very fun. (except the no unit ST is luring around and it's not fun to play against lol).

and most of the time when making something balanced also makes it boring, too. In my opinion, make it fun is good enough already.

 

[CallMeHoot]

The only thing carrying NR rn is the 4 provision Witcher who spams his shielded self non-stop. If not for that, NR would be unplayable. Not saying I miss the days of Alumni or Meditating Mage spam of course...

** Edit: When I say NR "would be unplayable" I mean in this current meta, but since the meta itself is broken, the problem here is not with NR but within other factions getting some broken stuff that obsoletes so much of the already existing stuff!

Meditating Mages are still very viable, even with the provision increases. Only required the slightest tweaks to get the same deck, more or less. It's amazing how people rely so much on netdecking they refuse to even try and experiment or include tech cards that can do well in whatever the meta is at the time. For example, I just CRUSHED a guy using SK Rain with NR Mages because my first play was Squirrel.

It's like Poker, in the sense that you're never gonna win 100% of your games, but if you're winning more than half, and doing it consistently, you're on the right track. Every deck in GWENT has favourable and non-favourable match-ups.

 

[yeahalright]

Unless people make it to pro rank, they shouldn't be taken seriously on balance. Right now the balance is horrendous, I see the same 3 decks majority of my games I play. SY Jackpot, SK Battle Trance, and NG Assimilate. Occasionally I see Tactical Decision or Enslave on NG. For what it is worth, my favorite deck right now is my own homebrew lippy SK deck, because it's challenging and fun to try and break the top meta-decks with tempo plays.

There is no real balance right now, bad as it's ever been, which is saying something because whenever there seems to be kind of semblance of balance the devs then nerf a key card or introduce a new broken card (KoB, Milva, etc) and the majority of the cards fall into trash status.

If anyone cannot see this, it's because they aren't good at the game, or haven't farmed the meta cards yet, and haven't made it to pro rank.

It's a damning indictment of the game that the top decks are found out by top players and streamed on day one of the patch, and it stays meta for the next 4 months. This game is not hard to figure out, it's just math, it should be trivially easy to balance out a math equation.

The devs may be more focused on 'fun', but this is just a cop out to admit that they don't want to balance the game IMO. Making a game balanced is trivially easy, and adding fun to it once it's achieved balanced is the better approach. Going for fun at the expense of balance kills any long-term potential of a game. The only reason Gwent stays alive is because the devs are constantly reworking cards, Magic the Gathering style, in order to keep the game fresh. But eventually devs will get bored of this cycle and so will players. So I believe devs are also failing at their objective of making the game fun, by continuously ignoring balance.

You can perhaps ignore balance for a little while, but not for years. It will always catch up with the game and ruin it. Gwent is following 90% of games I've seen die over the years, with a neglectful dev team that ignores basic balance considerations (especially from their top players) in the quest for 'fun' which of course doesn't exist without balance.

 

[Strateg1x]

Daily post: Wild Hunt need a buff.
and finally give normal
Caranthir Ar Feiniel.

 

[quintivarium]

Unless people make it to pro rank, they shouldn't be taken seriously on balance.

I find this both misguided and offensively arrogant.

1. An argument should be evaluated on it’s merit, not on who makes it. Discounting a statement (usually because you disagree) without considering the reasoning behind it is a dangerous practice.
2. Being pro does not guarantee one is a quality player. From watching my favorite streamers, I observe a lot of consistently poor play from many “pros”. I suspect rank is often far more a function of how much one plays than of how well one plays.
3. Not being pro does not imply one is not a good player. Many very good players stick almost exclusively to seasonal, draft, or unranked modes — I imagine for many differing reasons. Others may play so infrequently that they drop ranks faster than they regain them.
4. Balance should not be limited to top ranked play. For example, cards can be balanced at top levels because there are numerous counters in most high level decks, but horrible for beginners who don’t own the counters and want to focus crafting on cards that build a deck rather than needing to buy counters to a big card in the current meta. Everyone is entitled to form opinions on cards and their balance.

 

[Yopofthering]

Hey, balance is for everyone !

Honestly, from rank 2 to 0, I don't see any difference : people start to play the same decks. No surprise here : they want to climb/feed their MMR.

I think balance is more important for the majority of players (beginners, casual or long time players who just want to have fun). Balance will bring variety to keep them entertained (if you just want to reach the top, I guess you give up on variety).
If it's too unbalanced, we will end with the same tight meta from rank 25 to Gwent Masters. And for 3 months, since the game is slow to add new content...

 

[ThorgerWolff]

Balance haha.. So which update sucked the most: WoW or PoP?

WoW gave us the 'brilliance' of Viy and Kolgrim and the lot etc but then PoP amazed with an 'ultracool' spread out card drop and subpar art on some cards which still hasn't been fixed although it was mentioned they would. I guess PoP sucked the most for me because i was disappointed with bounty, then again self poison wasn't glorious either when WoW dropped. So maybe WoW.

Hmm, i also dislike the whole Relics pack, so i turn back to PoP. But i do like the lesser witch. I also like the Mushy Truffle but it favours SK a lot cos Alchemy card and really (too) good bonded unit with Alchemy synergy.

I loved Radovid with Uprising but the nerf killed it and was necessary. Too bad for Uprising. The mages were kind of cool, i hoped for more synergy with Yennefer conjuror, which is neato with Letho but Letho is NG not NR..

Then there is KoB for SY and monsters with AQ Gerni and Sabbath. These do kill meme decks more then necessary.

 

[CallMeHoot]

Unless people make it to pro rank, they shouldn't be taken seriously on balance. Right now the balance is horrendous, I see the same 3 decks majority of my games I play. SY Jackpot, SK Battle Trance, and NG Assimilate. Occasionally I see Tactical Decision or Enslave on NG. For what it is worth, my favorite deck right now is my own homebrew lippy SK deck, because it's challenging and fun to try and break the top meta-decks with tempo plays.

There is no real balance right now, bad as it's ever been, which is saying something because whenever there seems to be kind of semblance of balance the devs then nerf a key card or introduce a new broken card (KoB, Milva, etc) and the majority of the cards fall into trash status.

If anyone cannot see this, it's because they aren't good at the game, or haven't farmed the meta cards yet, and haven't made it to pro rank.

It's a damning indictment of the game that the top decks are found out by top players and streamed on day one of the patch, and it stays meta for the next 4 months. This game is not hard to figure out, it's just math, it should be trivially easy to balance out a math equation.

The devs may be more focused on 'fun', but this is just a cop out to admit that they don't want to balance the game IMO. Making a game balanced is trivially easy, and adding fun to it once it's achieved balanced is the better approach. Going for fun at the expense of balance kills any long-term potential of a game. The only reason Gwent stays alive is because the devs are constantly reworking cards, Magic the Gathering style, in order to keep the game fresh. But eventually devs will get bored of this cycle and so will players. So I believe devs are also failing at their objective of making the game fun, by continuously ignoring balance.

You can perhaps ignore balance for a little while, but not for years. It will always catch up with the game and ruin it. Gwent is following 90% of games I've seen die over the years, with a neglectful dev team that ignores basic balance considerations (especially from their top players) in the quest for 'fun' which of course doesn't exist without balance.

Well, I'm sitting at Pro Rank (I can upload a photo to IMGUR with your name on a bit of paper in front of my monitor displaying my pro rank avatar if you like) so my opinion counts, right?

Come on, mate. You don't have to commit to the grind to make a comment on the state of the game. It's a little arrogant to think so IMO. On my climb this season I saw a wide variety of decks. Sure, 4 or 5 were the emergent dominant decks, but the variety overall was there. I played NR Patience (Meditating Mages, tweaked to reflect the meta and the provision cost changes, so...semi-homebrew, I guess. The deck I used isn't on the database and I didn't see a single other player running it) and it took me about a hundred games, 30% of those I was kind of half paying attention and made some glaring misplays.

Anyway, to stay on the point, anyone can share their opinion here. At some point you have to trust the devs to take the feedback with a pinch of salt and recognise what is rage and what is genuinely constructive.

Personally, I feel like the game could definitely be more balanced by bringing bronze cards back to the front rather than one or two gold cards making or breaking the deck ,for example Xavier behind a Defender kills that deck. Like, kills it dead. And if the opponent doesn't at least have Squirrel in hand, Rioghan and Melusine roll over pretty much everything.

 

[ThorgerWolff]

Xavier behind a Defender kills that deck

Against gerni aq xavier is useless, they win r1 and r2 starts with sabbath or did u mean that sk deck? cos the bronzes in sk are quite good.

and teching against one op deck means you'll lose against another, so you start 'if you can't beat them, join them'.