CDPR vindicated those who doubted their promise

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Hum... I suppose that players can choose to ignore it, but in the dialogue :
Jaarl Balgruuf the Greater :
" If they think you're the Dragonborn, who are we to argue?"
"You'd better get up to High Hrothgar immediately. There's no refusing the summons of the Greybeards. It's a tremendous honor."

 
Hum... I suppose that players can choose to ignore it, but in the dialogue :
Jaarl Balgruuf the Greater :
" If they think you're the Dragonborn, who are we to argue?"
"You'd better get up to High Hrothgar immediately. There's no refusing the summons of the Greybeards. It's a tremendous honor."

And? i wrote about how Greybeards tasks the Dragonborn with retrieving Horn of Jurgen Windcaller, not how they summon the Dragonborn to the High Hrothgar.
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Bessides, it seems like you are missing the point. While there can be some urgency in the quests itself (like in your example) this doesn't mean that the whole storyline is urgent. Yes, I am compelled to go to High Hrothgar immediately, but afterward retrieving the Horn is a trial that is supposed to prove main character's claim as the Dragonborn and is given by people, who literally says to the Dragonborn to not be hasty.
The CP77 approach is the complete antythesis of that, restricting player from doing side content in the first act and then raising the stakes to what I would consider a 100/100 with V's more or less imminent death.
 
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A little far when you say "restricting".
I think that you can complete all the Cyberpsychos, all the NCPD Scanner Hustles, some side quests and all the Regina's GIGs before the Heist during the Waston lockdown.
Watson :

So I'm sorry, ok, it's "restricted" to Watson, but not like if you have nothing to do...
You can complete only 6/17 cyberpsychosis quests, 13/43 NCPD Scanner Hustles and 31 (EDIT: not even that, as some of this quests pop up only after Act 1, so it's even less)/82 side jobs so yeah, it's pretty much restriciting.
 
You can complete only 6/17 cyberpsychosis quests, 13/43 NCPD Scanner Hustles and 31/82 side jobs so yeah, it's pretty much restriciting.
Yeah, very "restricted" > you are able to complete almost a third of the game before you even exit act 1 and enter the "real" main story :)
 
Yeah, very "restricted" > you are able to complete almost a third of the game before you even exit act 1 and enter the "real" main story :)
Forgot to mention 22/69 Gigs.

Still, the game does a poor job of letting player stray from MS to do these activities - you can't justify leaving Jackie to wait for V at the bottom of Megabuilding H10 or Dex that's in the car just around the corner from Misty's place. I suppose you can postpone Meredith/Evelyn quests, though to be honest Dex's messages to hurry up doesn't help in that matter. Unfortunatelly it is still only 1/3 of the content that you can do without feeling like you're screwing up something important, while doing the rest (2/3) of the content is the matter of if you completely ignoring the fact that V is dying. For me this is restrictive.
 
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This is a complete fabrication as Skyrim gives player a lot more opportunities to stray away from main storyline than CP77. Hell, one of the very first thing that either Hadvar or Ralof says to the player after escaping Helgen is "It's probably better if we split up" giving player a perfect opportunity to do pretty much anything else.

People tend to exaggerate Skyrim's main storyline urgency from the very beginning, probably because they as the player know that the main character is the Dragonborn (or because instead of actually listening to what NPCs are saying they are thoughtlessly following quest's prompts), but they often don't take into account what the character in game knows at this very point. In reality untill A Blade in the Dark, a 7th (of 17) quest in the main storyline, the stakes aren't really that high - there are some dragon's, the Dragonborn was summoned to the High Hrothgar, but it wasn't even revealed yet that it's Alduin who is behind all this. Even Greybeards, who by their very life philosophy are the opposite of hastines and urgency, tasks Dragonborn to retrieve the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller when they are ready, so it is really up to the player to decide how they want to play.
Skyrim is essentially the archetype for compromising your story almost completely to make open world possible (and Oblivion before it). The storyline is a series of random events that feel hugely contrived and barely make any sense at all -- it is absolute nonsense that is not carried through into the world itself -- culminating, of course, with the player being the most important person in the universe and people still telling him to get out of the way as if nothing ever happened. Character motivations, if they exist at all, are "I am a racist nationalist", "I am an imperial conqueror" and "I have a beard".

By design, Bethesda's games prioritise freedom of action in the open world over good storytelling. It's a different way of making games and they are good at that. But no one plays Skyrim for its mastery of plot and it's not for no reason that arguably the most highly regarded story in all the Elder Scrolls games isn't even a main story at all, but the Dark Brotherhood side quests from Oblivion. It's about the only time TES even got close to good writing.
 
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This game was a mess at launch. Everyone gave CDPR a kicking then. For accuracy I think there were a couple of guys out on the ISS who didn't join in. That was 18 months ago. Since then a lot of bugs have gone and there's been a next gen update. The surge in console sales would suggest that CDPR have done a reasonable job in fixing what is there. It doesn't have to for me because I have Over a thousand hours on two different rigs. I've watched it improve as I play it. There are no promises to me. I just expected a good story in a great environment with some memorable characters etc. I feel I got that. I certainly have had my moneys worth out of this game.

I want to say something about quality control being an industry wide problem at the moment but that's another thread in itself. Its worth pointing out though that CDPR are not the only developer who is having trouble and the causes are more complicated than 'it's because they are all evil money grabbing devils!'.

Did this game reach its potential no it didn't. I cant speak to all the pre game hype because I just don't get involved in it but its clear there was more the developers wanted to do. History is history. We cant go back and change it. Too many people are stuck in what might have been and not where we are. The Witcher fans want the remake and a Witcher 4. There's only so much CDPR can do with the time available.

There are plenty of people who like this game. It has a lot of players and its sales have been excellent. People keep saying this IP cost CDPR money. It did not. There is no reason there should not be a CP2. There are games out there that have played five iterations of across five different platforms and OS's changing engine is a big deal but its not that big a deal. Especially since the new engine is an already developed and new iteration of a very well known and successful one.

I too would like to hear more from CDPR about the future of Cyberpunk but, given forum titles like this, can you blame them for not making any more promises. Its not all doom and gloom though. We have a DLC and a TV show to come

That said if CDPR don't develop a CP 2 at some point I am going to lock them all in a room and make them listen to Barry Manilow records till their ears bleed and their heads fall off.
 
This is a complete fabrication as Skyrim gives player a lot more opportunities to stray away from main storyline than CP77. Hell, one of the very first thing that either Hadvar or Ralof says to the player after escaping Helgen is "It's probably better if we split up" giving player a perfect opportunity to do pretty much anything else.

People tend to exaggerate Skyrim's main storyline urgency from the very beginning...
It's not any level of fabrication -- it's almost exactly the dialogue used in the exact order it's presented in the game. Lightly paraphrasing is not "fabricating".

Are you implying the player is not strongly pressured to head directly to Whiterun to ensure that the jarl is informed of the dragon attack?

Are you saying that the player is not told that finding the tablet is of the utmost importance?

Are you claiming that the player is not immediately ordered by the jarl to help his men fend off the dragon attacking the watchtower after a messenger dashes in to interrupt the private meeting?

Are you arguing that Balgruuf does not tell the player that there's no denying the Greybeards, pushing the player to head there right away?

Are you saying that Delphine does not say that it's vital they get to the dragon mound before it rises?

^ Are you arguing that this does not create direct, narrative pressure for the player to focus exclusively on the main quest and actively discourages them from free play?

Here, let's do a direct comparison to another Bethesda title created with a very different approach: Morrowind.

1.) The player arrives in Seyda Neen to be told that there are 3 different options for creating their character "...and the choice is yours."

2.) The player is given a task to deliver a message to Caius Cosades in the town of Balmora, and it's up to them to figure out how.

3.) Investigating how to even get to Balmora, the player is given rough directions, a warning about bandits in a nearby cave, and a tip that taking a silt strider would be the safest and most direct. Then, they're left to go spelunking or to get lost in the countryside if they want.

4.) After several adventures and few caves, most likely, the player arrives in Balmora, finally tracks down Caius -- who then specifically instructs the player to go away and come back when they're more experienced. This happens several times, actually, with the inherent gameplay designed with open play in mind.

Does this really sound like the system used in Skyrim to you?

I've played through Skyrim probably six or seven times. It's definitely a fun game -- but to get off the rails the narrative puts you on, you need to actively ignore the main quest, and then the game awkwardly picks up then next scene as if it was a few hours later, and you didn't just spend 3 in-game months becoming the bloody Archmage of the Mage's College or something. It's incredibly apparent and extremely distracting.

Still, the game does a poor job of letting player stray from MS to do these activities - you can't justify leaving Jackie to wait for V at the bottom of Megabuilding H10 or Dex that's in the car just around the corner from Misty's place. I suppose you can postpone Meredith/Evelyn quests, though to be honest Dex's messages to hurry up doesn't help in that matter. Unfortunatelly it is still only 1/3 of the content that you can do without feeling like you're screwing up something important, while doing the rest (2/3) of the content is the matter of if you completely ignoring the fact that V is dying. For me this is restrictive.
And here you're grasping at straws.

No, you can't really ignore the very first quest in the entire game after arriving in Night City that sets the stage for the whole storyline when Jackie says to meet him out front. It's also relatively hard to ignore the meeting with Dex immediately after. There: now the player knows what the main deal is.

After you get out of the car with Dex, and for the remainder of the entire game, it is perfectly justifiable for the player to play for weeks on end without ever touching the main quest. I sure did. And I never once felt like it was avoiding anything. It's perfectly conceivable that days or weeks would pass between the meeting with Dex and the meeting with the Maelstrom gang. In fact -- it actually makes more sense for the player to have been off gallivanting around NC before hand, as the next time we see Jackie, he's had enough time to make money and buy a pretty expensive motorcycle.

And this is how the rest of the game plays out, with main story missions being self-contained "chapters" that do not ever leave the player feeling like they're "ignoring" the main quest by engaging in open play. Like that quest, many parts of the game feel much, much better paced if the player intentionally takes on some gigs or side-missions: Eva's kidnapping, recovery, and slow degradation into depression and suicide...getting back in contact with Takemura...whichever love interest the player decides to pursue...etc.

I'd say there are very few games that offer such excellent storytelling while also creating such free-form play. Like Morrowind, the storyline constantly interjects "pauses" where the player can either continue on with the main quest, or feel justified in pursuing side content for a while, and both work very smoothly. The one and only narrative mistake the game makes is Viktor stating that you only have weeks left to live because the engram will eat your brain. And, like I've argued earlier, it's easy enough to dismiss: he was wrong. It takes longer.

Skyrim is essentially the archetype for compromising your story almost completely to make open world possible (and Oblivion before it). The storyline is a series of random events that feel hugely contrived and barely make any sense at all -- it is absolute nonsense that is not carried through into the world itself -- culminating, of course, with the player being the most important person in the universe and people still telling him to get out of the way as if nothing ever happened. Character motivations, if they exist at all, are "I am a racist nationalist", "I am an imperial conqueror" and "I have a beard".

By design, Bethesda's games prioritise freedom of action in the open world over good storytelling. It's a different way of making games and they are good at that. But no one plays Skyrim for its mastery of plot and it's not for no reason that arguably the most highly regarded story in all the Elder Scrolls games isn't even a main story at all, but the Dark Brotherhood side quests from Oblivion. It's about the only time TES even got close to good writing.
Quite so, and it didn't start off that way. The plot for Arena was camp and filler.

The plots for both Daggerfall and Morrowind were excellent. I still say that Morrowind is the best "prophecy / chosen one" plotline I've ever seen in a game. Man, was that a haunting story! It's just a shame that the games themselves simply don't hold up with modern audiences. (Lots of the mechanics and grahics are downright jank by today's standards, if still cool.)

Oblivion's story was "alright"-to-"meh". And Skyrim's premise is absolutely awesome, but I agree completely that the storyline doesn't truly live up to what it could have been. The later Beth games are all about the world, exploration, and combat. (I think Beth could hang the story altogether, actually. :D )

Whereas, I feel that Cyberpunk nailed its approach. The world of Night City is realized in amazing detail, and it forms the perfect backdrop for the story being told. The narrative itself if gripping and though-provoking. They create very fleshed out characters, and powerful moments. If anything, I feel the sheer level of random combat can detract a little from the overall experience. It did tend to make the experience feel very "game-y" to me, weird as that may sound. Whereas, in TW3, for example, the fights that happened seem to make more sense and be more satisfying to get through.

To me, it's a real shame that more people didn't really seem to engage with the story.
 
It's not any level of fabrication -- it's almost exactly the dialogue used in the exact order it's presented in the game. Lightly paraphrasing is not "fabricating".
It's not paraphrasing, it's a huge exaggeration, just for the sake of some mockery to make Skyrim look worse.
Are you implying the player is not strongly pressured to head directly to Whiterun to ensure that the jarl is informed of the dragon attack?
I'm not only implying it, that's a fact. As I said, the very first thing Hadvar/Ralof says to the player after leaving Helgen is to split up. There is no necessity to go to Riverwood nor Whiterun at this point - player is literally only a prisoner that by miracle escaped death.
Are you saying that the player is not told that finding the tablet is of the utmost importance?

Are you claiming that the player is not immediately ordered by the jarl to help his men fend off the dragon attacking the watchtower after a messenger dashes in to interrupt the private meeting?

Are you arguing that Balgruuf does not tell the player that there's no denying the Greybeards, pushing the player to head there right away?

Are you saying that Delphine does not say that it's vital they get to the dragon mound before it rises?
I'm saying that in between those events there is space to go different path. Your last example, Delphine - does she say that it's vital to get to the dragon mound? Yes, but only if you go with her down to the inn's cellar in Riverwood. Thing is, you have every right not to do this. All you came here for is the Horn that she took and there is really no reason to trust her. You can simply grab the Horn and leave to deliver it to Greybeards and it would still be a perfectly justified behaviour, that let's you roleplay differently.
I've played through Skyrim probably six or seven times. It's definitely a fun game -- but to get off the rails the narrative puts you on, you need to actively ignore the main quest, and then the game awkwardly picks up then next scene as if it was a few hours later, and you didn't just spend 3 in-game months becoming the bloody Archmage of the Mage's College or something. It's incredibly apparent and extremely distracting.
I don't know how many playthroughs I had, but Steam shows me that I have collectively around 1800h in Skyrim and Skyrim SE and on characters that I wanted to postpone main storyline I never felt as if my Dragonborn deliberately ignores some crucial tasks, especially when I went with Hadfvar/Ralof's suggestion to go my own way.
And here you're grasping at straws.

No, you can't really ignore the very first quest in the entire game after arriving in Night City that sets the stage for the whole storyline when Jackie says to meet him out front. It's also relatively hard to ignore the meeting with Dex immediately after. There: now the player knows what the main deal is.

After you get out of the car with Dex, and for the remainder of the entire game, it is perfectly justifiable for the player to play for weeks on end without ever touching the main quest. I sure did. And I never once felt like it was avoiding anything. It's perfectly conceivable that days or weeks would pass between the meeting with Dex and the meeting with the Maelstrom gang. In fact -- it actually makes more sense for the player to have been off gallivanting around NC before hand, as the next time we see Jackie, he's had enough time to make money and buy a pretty expensive motorcycle.
Thet's exactly why I said that this is the content that you can actually do without feeling like you're screwing up something important. It's a good stuff, but it's too bad that it's only 1/3 of available side content.
And this is how the rest of the game plays out, with main story missions being self-contained "chapters" that do not ever leave the player feeling like they're "ignoring" the main quest by engaging in open play. Like that quest, many parts of the game feel much, much better paced if the player intentionally takes on some gigs or side-missions: Eva's kidnapping, recovery, and slow degradation into depression and suicide...getting back in contact with Takemura...whichever love interest the player decides to pursue...etc.

I'd say there are very few games that offer such excellent storytelling while also creating such free-form play. Like Morrowind, the storyline constantly interjects "pauses" where the player can either continue on with the main quest, or feel justified in pursuing side content for a while, and both work very smoothly. The one and only narrative mistake the game makes is Viktor stating that you only have weeks left to live because the engram will eat your brain. And, like I've argued earlier, it's easy enough to dismiss: he was wrong. It takes longer.
The issue is that after Act 1 every quest in main storyline feels like having annotation "Try to avoid death by..." and then the actual quest's objective, while every side quest feels like having "Completely ignore your fatal condition while..." before the objective. And the problem isn't the supposed timeframe that Victor states - this is irrelevant, because no matter if it would be 2 weeks, a month or a year, V is still terminally ill. If my doctor would say that I have a very severe condition that may result in death, that it may or may not be curable, and that I may have 3 months to live then for sure my response wouldn't be "Oh, so I can do whatever for 2 months and will take care of it later", I'll jump immediately into searching for a solution. That's the problem in CP77, the stakes are skyrocketed from 0 to 100 and are constantly on the samme level for the rest of the game. And personally I believe that it simply wasn't neccessary - having a dead terrorist in one's head is enough motivation to look for a way to get rid of him and it would make the stakes rise gradually:
  1. Prologue and Act 1 - stakes are sommewhere between 0-10, no immanent danger apart for potential risk during the heist.
  2. Act 2 - thank's to Relic V is "resurrected" but there's a downside - dead terrorist's construct that now lives in protagonist's head. Not a nicest condition so V's motivation is now to get rid of it. There's no mention of V dying as Victor doesn't know that - for him at this point it looks like Relic is rebulding V's body. Stakes are at around 30-40. There is a motivation to go down the main storyline, but deviating from it doesn't feel odd.
  3. Now we need a point to reveal the truth about Relic - personally I think that meeting Alt would be a good point. She reveals to both V and JS what Relic is really doing to V's body and that they will die and JS will take over controll of it. The rest plays exacly the same as in the game.
With that we still have the motivation to pursue the solution to Relic problem (though we are not immediately aware of the severity of it) and we have more room to justify doing side content.
 
This is a complete fabrication as Skyrim gives player a lot more opportunities to stray away from main storyline than CP77. Hell, one of the very first thing that either Hadvar or Ralof says to the player after escaping Helgen is "It's probably better if we split up" giving player a perfect opportunity to do pretty much anything else.

People tend to exaggerate Skyrim's main storyline urgency from the very beginning, probably because they as the player know that the main character is the Dragonborn (or because instead of actually listening to what NPCs are saying they are thoughtlessly following quest's prompts), but they often don't take into account what the character in game knows at this very point. In reality untill A Blade in the Dark, a 7th (of 17) quest in the main storyline, the stakes aren't really that high - there are some dragon's, the Dragonborn was summoned to the High Hrothgar, but it wasn't even revealed yet that it's Alduin who is behind all this. Even Greybeards, who by their very life philosophy are the opposite of hastines and urgency, tasks Dragonborn to retrieve the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller when they are ready, so it is really up to the player to decide how they want to play.
Jurgen Windcaller is such a badass name...
 
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