[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Bearded Geek]

I thought the end was excellent; we all die, at least my V got to go out on his terms - in a blaze of glory doing some utterly insane stunt in space. I also thought the end was happy, because all the people V helped left him messages, which proved that for once, somebody had managed to live a life that had had meaning to others. V embodied everything meaningful and worth living for during his short existence.

And that's great; but for a lot of us that is explicitly NOT the story we expected or wanted. And the "we all will die" argument is so weird to me. It is one thing to be at peace with knowing we all are going to die, and to get overrun by a car at 25. I don't see the loved ones going "that's fine, we're all going to die anyway" and go home.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

In my quest to watch the gameplay I have now arrived at Act II... where V has a mental breakdown after being told she has 2 weeks to live, then get physically abused by her brain tumor, who is acting like your typical abusive boyfriend (that's not an illusion, her head smashing into the window leaves a bloody stain that is very much real... why would V forgive Johnny for that btw?)

You watched Fight Club ? V is more or less like the narrator... V is "V" indeed (so the narrator), but V is also Johnny (Tyler Durden).

And to be honest, how you would react if you died violentely while trying to save the only woman you ever loved, by the guy who kill her... Then wake up and discover that 50 years passed, that you're stuck as an engram in the head of an unknow dude, and you don't how, why...

 

[Bearded Geek]

I thought the end was excellent; we all die, at least my V got to go out on his terms - in a blaze of glory doing some utterly insane stunt in space. I also thought the end was happy, because all the people V helped left him messages, which proved that for once, somebody had managed to live a life that had had meaning to others. V embodied everything meaningful and worth living for during his short existence.

And that's fine, but it is explicitly not the story a lot of us wanted nor expected. (Also it is heavily suggested that V does that mission because she's been promised a cure).
Btw the "we will all die" argument is weird to me. To be at peace with the idea that we all die is good, but I don't see the family of a man being ran over by a car at 25 go "oh well, we're all going to day anyway" and just go home?

Post automatically merged: Dec 14, 2022

You watched Fight Club ? V is more or less like the narrator... V is "V" indeed (so the narrator), but V is also Johnny (Tyler Durden).

And to be honest, how you would react if you died violentely while trying to save the only woman you ever loved, by the guy who kill her... Then wake up and discover that 50 years passed, that you're stuck as an engram in the head of an unknow dude, and you don't how, why...

No, I watched a different consciousness take hold of V's body and trying to kill her by slamming her head against a window. Not a split personality.
(And yeah I get that he's confused, but if I were V I wouldn't trust him an inch after that. Abusive people will stay abusive).

 

[LeKill3rFou]

And yeah I get that he's confused, but if I were V I wouldn't trust him an inch after that. Abusive people will stay abusive

Trust him or not, V (you) decide

No, I watched a different consciousness take hold of V's body and trying to kill her by slamming her head against a window. Not a split personality.

Again, I repeat myself a bit... But Johnny don't take over V's body. He's "installed" by the chip (nothing he can do about that... He can't speed up the process ot stop it).
If Johnny die, it's Saburo fault (a bit his fault too, to be honest^^)
If Johnny is on the chip, it's Yorinobu fault.
If Johnny is installed on V's brain, it's Relic fault.
If the chip is in V head, it's V fault.
Johnny suffers the events even more than V, it doesn't change the fact that he is an asshole (at first), but an asshole who didn't ask anything to anyone


Then during the main quest, Hellman, the Arasaka Relic expert, say that no, V is V and Johnny simultanously... Like Fight Club. The narrator trully believe during the whole movie that he talk to someone else, whereas he speak to himself. When Tyler Durden punch him in the face, he punch his face alone^^)
You don't see it, take a look

Spoiler

 

[joebeard]

And that's fine, but it is explicitly not the story a lot of us wanted nor expected. (Also it is heavily suggested that V does that mission because she's been promised a cure).
Btw the "we will all die" argument is weird to me. To be at peace with the idea that we all die is good, but I don't see the family of a man being ran over by a car at 25 go "oh well, we're all going to day anyway" and just go home?

Post automatically merged: Dec 14, 2022

No, I watched a different consciousness take hold of V's body and trying to kill her by slamming her head against a window. Not a split personality.
(And yeah I get that he's confused, but if I were V I wouldn't trust him an inch after that. Abusive people will stay abusive).

In the world of CP2077, I didn't feel like V's life had been cut short. Night City seems like an especially cruel and cut-throat place, the sort of place you go if living is second to making a name for yourself. Amongst all the inequity, V managed to rise above the Corpos and gang-bangers to become legend, and he did it despite the odds being stacked against him, and by markedly improving the lives of many (but not all!) of the people he met. In these circumstances, "We all die" implies that V made his life count.

In case it needs to be said though, I do sympathise with your point of view. Nobody likes having the rug pulled out from under them, and an ending where V has a more life affirming outlook would not have harmed anything in my opinion. Johnny was also a bar-steward as you pointed out, though I think in the end he and V came to an understanding, and Johnny did not want to kill him.

 

[Bearded Geek]

Again, I repeat myself a bit... But Johnny don't take over V's body.

Actually I am speaking about that very instance, where he literally take over her body. He makes her hit herself and make her slam her head against the glass until both her head and the glass breaks. I am not talking about the technicalities how he got there, I am talking specifically about that instance.

 

[CS554]

Yeah I kinda went on a rant there, but as I said later, from my point of view there is nothing new, beautifully retold or interesting in the story. I respect (I really do) those who think that way, but all I see is the same "understand human nature" piece that has been written at least three times a year since 4000 BC.

Okay, so you are pushing 50, you have invested your time to learn about lot's of things, unsubscribed from the most of them, yeah that can happen, and stick with some things. You wrote earlier how world is depressing and game is depressing and now you are depressed.

Hate or like the the game, but for mature person, if a book, a movie, a video game flips you to state of depression because it wasn't a story following a Hollywood action movie formula are you sure that problem here is just how endings were written.

And you had other post about how the cyberpunk isn't sometimes dark. Let's review your examples.

Blade Runner: Protagonist had six month to live, then ending from other cut became canon as they made a sequel, which... I don't think you have seen that.

Robocop: Murphy had special tolerance process and doesn't kill himself right after waking or go outright crazy, like all other experiments before him. He is encased in that shell, his memory is all messed up, he has no reproductive organs, only sensorial pleasure available for him is baby food he can eat.

Ghost in the Shell: Motoko doesn't own her body. Opening crawl of movie is about her artificial body going through very complex machinery that keeps it functioning. Technically she could perhaps end her contract with PSS9 or just run away, but she could never be able to maintain functioning body without all that tech PSS9 has. She is in indentured servitude at best, slave at worst.

Fallout (which is actually EX Cyberpunk, since it's set in a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world). Nope, retro futuristic.

Demolition Man: Everybody is nice! We don't even swear or do anything that could offend anyone! Beeb, Beeb, Beeb... World in some aspects very much like ours, which you don't feel so great about.

Matrix: You know how trilogy ends? (well there's now four movies though).
Judge Dredd: He is genetically and medically enhanced freak to be able to function in Mega City, no personal goals, no sexuality.

Ultraviolet: one of those movies that I watched and don't remember anything about it. Milla Jovovich with a sword? Okay maybe.

Shadowrun (and Cyberpunk tabletop game too): are social and I don't think they would work with such a plot as CP 2077.

Minority Report: Clone's sacrifice.

Anyway, items on your list have has for all but Blade Runner one thing in common, protagonist power. No matter how mutilated they are, hopelessly dependent, living in shithole dystopias, but they have power and through that power they survive to encounter their next nightmare.

So what we have produced for over last hundred years or so? The amount of winning against all odds stories on novels, movies, tv-shows, comics, games, whatever medium one can think miniscule amount of products with some philosophical depth. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of meaningless shit to distract us from banality of life is produced every year and more will be produced.

Those citizens of the Night City in their apartments, single bed, sometimes dirty as heck, but there was one thing there worth money, a braindance machine. What you thought about that?

 

[Bearded Geek]

Okay, so you are pushing 50, you have invested your time to learn about lot's of things, unsubscribed from the most of them, yeah that can happen, and stick with some things. You wrote earlier how world is depressing and game is depressing and now you are depressed.

Hate or like the the game, but for mature person, if a book, a movie, a video game flips you to state of depression because it wasn't a story following a Hollywood action movie formula are you sure that problem here is just how endings were written.

And you had other post about how the cyberpunk isn't sometimes dark. Let's review your examples.

Blade Runner: Protagonist had six month to live, then ending from other cut became canon as they made a sequel, which... I don't think you have seen that.

Robocop: Murphy had special tolerance process and doesn't kill himself right after waking or go outright crazy, like all other experiments before him. He is encased in that shell, his memory is all messed up, he has no reproductive organs, only sensorial pleasure available for him is baby food he can eat.

Ghost in the Shell: Motoko doesn't own her body. Opening crawl of movie is about her artificial body going through very complex machinery that keeps it functioning. Technically she could perhaps end her contract with PSS9 or just run away, but she could never be able to maintain functioning body without all that tech PSS9 has. She is in indentured servitude at best, slave at worst.

Fallout (which is actually EX Cyberpunk, since it's set in a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world). Nope, retro futuristic.

Demolition Man: Everybody is nice! We don't even swear or do anything that could offend anyone! Beeb, Beeb, Beeb... World in some aspects very much like ours, which you don't feel so great about.

Matrix: You know how trilogy ends? (well there's now four movies though).
Judge Dredd: He is genetically and medically enhanced freak to be able to function in Mega City, no personal goals, no sexuality.

Ultraviolet: one of those movies that I watched and don't remember anything about it. Milla Jovovich with a sword? Okay maybe.

Shadowrun (and Cyberpunk tabletop game too): are social and I don't think they would work with such a plot as CP 2077.

Minority Report: Clone's sacrifice.

Anyway, items on your list have has for all but Blade Runner one thing in common, protagonist power. No matter how mutilated they are, hopelessly dependent, living in shithole dystopias, but they have power and through that power they survive to encounter their next nightmare.

So what we have produced for over last hundred years or so? The amount of winning against all odds stories on novels, movies, tv-shows, comics, games, whatever medium one can think miniscule amount of products with some philosophical depth. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of meaningless shit to distract us from banality of life is produced every year and more will be produced.

Those citizens of the Night City in their apartments, single bed, sometimes dirty as heck, but there was one thing there worth money, a braindance machine. What you thought about that?

Fallout: A world with megacorps, corruption, human experimentation cybernetic implants, superplagues... Yes it is most definitely cyberpunk, although the cyber is done with vacuum tubes rather than microchips. Also Cyberpunk 2077 is most definitely just as retrofuturistic; the art style and the tech is based on 1980s idea of the future, almost everything is actually hilariously dated tech by today's standard, except for the actual magical-tech stuff.

Anyway yes, I understand your point, but the point is that people try to argue that because it's tragic it's per default better "art".
Besides, I think make a huge leap in the list I made completely disregarding the fact that I outright said these were endings on a murky grey scale. The difference with this game is that the ending is just black.

 

[CS554]

Fallout: A world with megacorps, corruption, human experimentation cybernetic implants, superplagues... Yes it is most definitely cyberpunk, although the cyber is done with vacuum tubes rather than microchips. Also Cyberpunk 2077 is most definitely just as retrofuturistic; the art style and the tech is based on 1980s idea of the future, almost everything is actually hilariously dated tech by today's standard, except for the actual magical-tech stuff.

Anyway yes, I understand your point, but the point is that people try to argue that because it's tragic it's per default better "art".
Besides, I think make a huge leap in the list I made completely disregarding the fact that I outright said these were endings on a murky grey scale. The difference with this game is that the ending is just black.

Again you sort of just answer part of my post.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Besides, I think make a huge leap in the list I made completely disregarding the fact that I outright said these were endings on a murky grey scale. The difference with this game is that the ending is just black.

Endings are not just black (or I missunderstand^^).
One is for sure, which is named accordingly
Other aren't "just" black... Except if you consider if "V die, it's black anyway. If it's the case, V can also follow Alt behind the blackwall, and become an AI. Like that, V could possibly never die. AIs aren't really immortal, but still... (but becoming an AI, it's almost let your humanity behind)

They're not really happy, but they are inspired by the TTRPG original.
V walk away as winner :
- V destroyed mikoshi (something that Militech and Johnny never managed to achieve).
- Arasaka still there but because of V, Arasaka took a huge hit (possibly are no longer the most powerful corpos)
- V possibily kill another bleak motherfuckin' legend of Night City (Johnny best enemy)
- V help a lot of people on her path.
- V could become a living legend which is enough rare to be pointed out.
But.... V still dying.

▶ Pyrrhic Victory
The Edgerunners won, technically. They finished the job and they killed the Antagonist, but their victory came at a hefty price. Their HQ burned to the ground or an important NPC died during the final confronta- tion. Whatever the case, while they’re walking away winners, the Edgerunners shouldn’t feel like it. Be careful—while this victory feels very Cyberpunk it can be a tough act to follow.

 

[Bearded Geek]

Endings are not just black (or I missunderstand^^).
One is for sure, which is named accordingly
Other aren't "just" black... Except if you consider if "V die, it's black anyway. If it's the case, V can also follow Alt behind the blackwall, and become an AI. Like that, V could possibly never die. AIs aren't really immortal, but still... (but becoming an AI, it's almost let your humanity behind)

All endings where V dies are black, yes. And to me, becoming an AI is deeply undesirable, especially since I wouldn't dream of letting "johnny" have my body.
This is why I keep saying that until we get confirmation that V survives, the Suicide option is right up there as one of the best endings since it is the ONLY option where V has control. Agency is very important to me; not having agency is a horribly nightmare to me. At least if she shoots herself, it is she having full control over her life, not even the megacorps can stop her.
If we DO get confirmation that V survives in any of the other endings then yes, Suicide definitely falls right down at the bottom of the list.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

All endings where V dies are black, yes. And to me, becoming an AI is deeply undesirable, especially since I wouldn't dream of letting "johnny" have my body.

You miss an important point
In Cyberpunk (by Mike P., which is important, because Cyberpunk 2077 only come from here), body is nothing, remplacable... even a weakness
(and in control ending on Mass Effect, Shepard doesn't become an AI too ? Shepard's body is not destroyed in the process ?)

 

[Bearded Geek]

You miss an important point
In Cyberpunk (by Mike P., which is important, because Cyberpunk 2077 only come from here), body is nothing, remplacable... even a weakness
(and in control ending on Mass Effect, Shepard doesn't become an AI too ? Shepard's body is not destroyed in the process ?)

It is still undesirable to me. In ME3 Shepard can become one with the Reapers, but it her choice to sacrifice her life to save the entire galaxy. The scale and significance of the choices are not comparable in any way to me.

And yes, I agree to a large part, which is why I have already said the idea that many players argue that "Copy V" isn't actually alive, or not actually V is weird to me, BUT it is also a matter of principle. Johnny is a hijacker, a parasite. Not someone you give the key to the house to when you move out.
(Also, just because the author of the TTRPG specifies that, doesn't mean my character thinks exactly that way).

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Also, just because the author of the TTRPG specifies that, doesn't mean my character thinks exactly that way

No, but the story, the world and indeed the endings come from Cyberpunk from Mike Pondsmith (not Blade Runner, not Ghost In the Shell, noting else...)
Here something that I already post (but certainely lost in the abyss of the forum), an interview with Mike Pondsmith :

Matthew : "And of course, the man who killed your character in Cyberpunk, Mike Pondsmith. And when I say that Mike, I'm not just blowing smoke, I have here my original copy from when I was a kid and you killed my characters..."
Mike Pondsmith : "I'm glad you have a good time dying"
At the right time

And to quote Mike himself : "Cyberpunk is a fanfic, made by fans for fans"
If you're not a fan and if these kind of endings bother you, great chances that you don't like them... But CDPR made a good job to stay "faithful" to the original TTRPG (you like it or not, your tastes).

 

[LadyMiseryAli]

@LadyMiseryAli​

Erm .... all the Sun endings lead to

Spoiler

V's death in space organized by Mr Blue et al

Not a "nice ending imho. And Judy does not break up with you. Quite the opposite, she

Spoiler

joins you with the Aldoercaldos to leave NC for good

. If you try the same with Kerry or River they

Spoiler

won't join you (although River promised to join you later)

Cheers Euclid

Disagree with The Sun ending. There is NO proof that V dies because we don't see what happens afterward. V wouldn't die from a heist. Gimme a fucking break. He's the best merc in all of Night City.

 

[Bearded Geek]

Anyway, watching the let's play I got recommended, I am less... distraught for the basic reason the writing isn't all that good. Skipped forward to the desired ending in the Let's play; let's see if I can stommach playing thru it myself.

Post automatically merged: Dec 14, 2022

No, but the story, the world and indeed the endings come from Cyberpunk from Mike Pondsmith (not Blade Runner, not Ghost In the Shell, noting else...)
Here something that I already post (but certainely lost in the abyss of the forum), an interview with Mike Pondsmith :

Matthew : "And of course, the man who killed your character in Cyberpunk, Mike Pondsmith. And when I say that Mike, I'm not just blowing smoke, I have here my original copy from when I was a kid and you killed my characters..."
Mike Pondsmith : "I'm glad you have a good time dying"
At the right time

And to quote Mike himself : "Cyberpunk is a fanfic, made by fans for fans"
If you're not a fan and if these kind of endings bother you, great chances that you don't like them... But CDPR made a good job to stay "faithful" to the original TTRPG (you like it or not, your tastes).

Well, it seems Cyberpunk (the TTRPG) might be one of my very least favorite cyberpunk settings. Too bad this game was based on that, huh? Never played (or heard of) the TTRPG before buying this game (I am Swedish).

He sounds like Gygax, who envisioned Dungeon and Dragons as a competition where the Dungeon Master's job was to murder the players. Which is widely regarded as an incompetent Dungeon master these days. So Pondersmith is, by modern TTRPG sensibilities, an incompetent Game Master.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Anyway, watching the let's play I got recommended, I am less... distraught for the basic reason the writing isn't all that good.

Ok, so matter of tastes I guess, because I remember you quoted AC Odyssey previously, but it's clearly not a game that would come in my mind for good writing or good story (ok, a little above Bethesda, but not by much^^)

 

[The_Blacks]

a little above Bethesda, but not by much

An accurate description of post-Ezio AC games

 

[Bearded Geek]

An accurate description of post-Ezio AC games

Well taste is different; Odyssey is the only AC game I consider good, period. But i love RPGs and have a strong distaste for "Adventure games". Odyssey is basically Skyrim in Classical Greece (my favorite historical period) but with ship combat and good writing. (Also Melissanthi Mahut is my favorite voice actor, and I mean globally, not just in AC Odyssey). You didn't make the mistake of playing as the non-canon Alexios I hope? As per usual the male voice actor is much worse, just like in this game, Mass Effect, and dozens of others).

Anyway, I think I can stomach the Star Ending. The writing and concept of the plot is still both sadistic (both towards the player and V) and unimaginative, but at least I will be able to play the game once so I can get some of my money's worth out of it.

A big part of this of course is that I have a very easy time to quickly empathize with almost any RPG character. It usually takes me about 5 minutes to basically go "I have known X for 5 minutes and if anyone happens to (her) I will kill everyone in this room and then myself". At the same time I have seen so many posts, in so many forums about so many games where players go "Oh and why would I care about my character's child? I only saw it for 25 real life hours and I need at least 5 IRL years to start caring about anyone but myself").

I would not accept playing TTRPG with a GM that thinks killing the player characters is part of the fun, I would go home and boycott that GM's play sessions after that. Not only is it not fun, it is as I said by modern TTRPG standards a sign of grave incompetence on the GM's side.

A few questions tho: People talk about Misty's Tarot readings as "giving the player hope for V:s survival" and having watched this Let's Play I simply don't see it. Just like I thought the graffiti Tarot cards should have any significance it really don't look like it; to me it just look like a random collectible with made up "significance" when you can basically collect all of them. But maybe most players make the mistake of unlocking all endings for it's own sake and therefore getting all the cards? While the idea that you only get cards relevant to your decisions if you unlock fewer endings? I don't know, it just looks like another pointless collectible like the sex dolls in Saints Row 3 or the Sex cards from Witcher 1 all over again.
Point is... it doesn't seem like Misty's readings has anything to do with your choices at all, it's just random musings that covers all the endings. Aka just like IRL horoscopes or something. Much talk about nothing to make the person getting the reading "believe" the "mystic powers". Misty's just a charlatan, a caring one, but a charlatan nevertheless, as far as I can tell.

IS there a significance to the cards? DO they vary depending on path taken?
IS there a reason to look for the "graffiti" tarot cards other than to get XP?

(Also why are all AIs in all games smug self-important douchbags that need their power unplugged asap? Even just watching the Let's Play makes me want to do something drastic to her to take her down about 500 notches).

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I would not accept playing TTRPG with a GM that thinks killing the player characters is part of the fun, I would go home and boycott that GM's play sessions after that. Not only is it not fun, it is as I said by modern TTRPG standards a sign of grave incompetence on the GM's side.

Maybe GM won't do it for fun, but because it's a part of the game and in the rules
That's the point of the video that I posted...
Mike Pondsmith said : "I'm glad you had a good time dying !"
Then Matthew A. Goodwin answered : "I really did ! To the point that I write now Cyberpunk for living"

So if you don't enjoy these kind of outcomes, don't start to play Cyberpunk TTRPG (better to play another one), don't blame the GM for something you don't like but which is a part of the game

A few questions tho: People talk about Misty's Tarot readings as "giving the player hope for V:s survival" and having watched this Let's Play I simply don't see it. Just like I thought the graffiti Tarot cards should have any significance it really don't look like it; to me it just look like a random collectible with made up "significance" when you can basically collect all of them. But maybe most players make the mistake of unlocking all endings for it's own sake and therefore getting all the cards? While the idea that you only get cards relevant to your decisions if you unlock fewer endings? I don't know, it just looks like another pointless collectible like the sex dolls in Saints Row 3 or the Sex cards from Witcher 1 all over again.
Point is... it doesn't seem like Misty's readings has anything to do with your choices at all, it's just random musings that covers all the endings. Aka just like IRL horoscopes or something. Much talk about nothing to make the person getting the reading "believe" the "mystic powers". Misty's just a charlatan, a caring one, but a charlatan nevertheless, as far as I can tell.

Hum... Compare the Misty tarot readings between Devil and Star/Sun endings
One is "bad", the two others are not.

In fact, cards are mostly linked to the area where you found them and the person V meet or events which happen in the location.
The Fool > V's apartment (V)
Emperor > Konpeki Plaza (Saburo Arasaka)
The Empress > Afterlife (Rogue)
The Lovers > Silver Pixel Cloud (Johnny + Rogue)
Strength > Panam
The Hermit > Pacifica (Voodoo Boys/Alt)
And so on
(I always found weird that you're able to get them directly... Most often, players don't even saw the "link" because the quest/event happen (tens) hours after they get the card...)