The combat in The Witcher 3 will be very intuitive and fluid. 2 days ago I spent some time only on fighting enemies and let me tell you, our designers have come up with great solutions. I won't get into too many details right now (there will be time for that in the future) but players will feel like real master swordsmen this time around It's much better than the one from Assassins of Kings. On top of that the fighting animations that Geralt will utilize are fantastic - it's like he's dancing with his swords. Just wait until you see it in motion
Well, I'll put in my 2 cents about what I thought about the combat in the Batman games. The Batman combat is really fun. Much more fun to play than it even appears when just watching. It would be a big accomplishment if TW3 can achieve that.
The biggest problem I had with the Batman combat was the difficulty. WAAAY too easy. The challenge came in the form of trying to never take a single hit and maintain your combo all the way through a group of enemies, but it was never difficult to survive. I can't remember ever dying.
I want extremely difficult combat in TW3, but of course, not increasing difficulty in dumb ways like simply giving the enemies more health and making them do more damage (like the difficulty slider in Skyrim).
The other problem I thought of with the Batman combat was that upgrading and learning new abilities never really added much to the combat. What I mean is, I would learn these new abilities and then feel like I never had to use them. For example, why do I need to use explosive gel during melee combat? Why bother when it didn't really help in any way or make things easier. I guess, what I'm saying is those new abilities weren't useful. Maybe if the combat were harder it would have fixed that problem too, but who knows.
I also remember CDPR talking about how they really loved Dark Souls combat, and if they didn't say it directly, I think the implication was there that they were incorporating some things from the Dark Souls series. Does anyone else remember that or have a link to that interview? I think it was Konrad who said it.
In all honesty, if they do something along the lines of Arkham, then I will be disappointed.
One thing I always loved about the Witcher was that combat was actually hard. That you could die with 3 or 4 hits and that you had to evade and use your abilities clever.
Yes, there were a few too many "rolls" in the system and it was not THAT fluid, and I'd like them to improve on that.
But I really hope the system will NOT be like the Assassins Creed or Batman Arkham systems which are - let's be honest - terribly easy. In Batman Arkham Asylum it was possible to take down 20 enemies without a problem, I don't want that for the Witcher. I want 3 - 4 people to be a real threat, so that I as a player have to be creative to beat them.
They took two things from AA - the auto distance-closing attacks and randomly generated moves. I feel they need to preserve both, but then tweak AI and give us better ways to confront groups up close. Once you got surrounded in TW2, your only option was to use Quen or roll away. Crowd control typically had to be dealt with from a distance be it bombs or leveled up Ignii, and this needs to change. they can still have aggressive AI, but they can't have every enemy type charging you the same way. This is what Dark Souls did better.
The only thing I thought they could improve is - like some of you said - making it flow more, meaning you do not have to finish and animation before striking next and maybe to give you powers such as the "ground Arad" we saw in the trailer in order to "get free" of enemies closing in and sourrounding you.
Crowd control like you said.
But I sincerely hope we will NOT be able to counter as easily as in AA or AC, because that would ruin the balance IMO. I liked having to dodge sometimes and having to attack from the side sometimes in case of special enemy types (though they could tweak that a little bit), etc.
I think that's where the second magic stuff is going to play the big role. Like they said if you hold down the Magic Button all signs have a second more powerful ability, I feel that's where this will be used. Like Aard looks like it'll do the AOE Explosion & Igni you could Set all the enemies in front of you ablaze & attack/run through them to get out ETC.
Yeah, that could give the whole thing a new dymnamic, being able to keep enemies on distance and then close in and attack them, being able to get rid of enemies sourrounding you and having a temporary containment ability.
I hope though they balance it well with the amount of Vigor needed and the general counter-measures of enemies (attacking from behind while Geralt does the Powerful Igni that keeps enemies in front of him on distance would mabye interrupt him and hurt him more than a normal attack, stuff like that).
All in all we need to be able to be FASTER in combat and to do less dodges (but not "not dodges", I actually like the rolls, just the amound required was too much in TW2) but NOT to be able to beat MORE enemies.
CDPR can take some elements from the combat in Arkham series, for example the counter attacks.
Well, technically we already had those as ability in TW2.
The only difference was you could only counter one enemy at a time and it was a pretty short window to activate the counter. And that is actually what I liked so much about it.
For example Geralt is hitting an enemy, someone else attacks you from behind or even a group of enemies, you push the counter button on time and Geralt counters and attack them back. I think it's going to give the game a more cinematic aspect as well, if fast, realistic, and deadly sword moves are implemented.
I think that would make the combat way too easy.
But I think being able to turn around fast and being able to interrupt while attacking (which is confirmed) is indeed good.
So imagine you attack and realize that there are 2 guys attacking you from behind. So you interrupt your attack by pressing "block" and Geralt is able to block the attacks (at the cost of vigor and a small amount of health/vitality of course). Being able to counter them automatically by pressing the button would make it too easy.
If you then are able to use signs like the powerful arad ground wave we saw in the trailer you have yet another way to prevent such an attack from behind. Same goes for being able to roll backwards and then cast the igni sign like Geralt did in the trailers.
What do you mean?
In my experience, when you attack in the witcher 2 without setting the targeting icon, Geralt attacks and hits (if you dont have the ability) one specific guy, the one thats kind of in front of you and more in the middle of the screen, wich is also what happens in Batman games.
The difference between using the targeting icon and not using it, is that without it you can choose targets just panning the camera around with the mouse, and thus if another guy gets in the way of that your target changes automatically.
Did you play it on PC with mouse&keyboard? Because I played it that way and for me it was the latter not the former in TW2. I could move my camera and Geralt would attack who is in front of me. No auto lock here.
I admit that there are problems with that system and sometimes the game needs time to detects where you are aiming at - time that you do not have theoretically. So I hope they improve that.
But aside from that this was my experience with TW2.
Which isn't anything like Geralt, or Witchers in general. Precise yes, but not weighty. Witchers are quick, and they "float" in combat, they move gracefully, quickly and with ruthless efficiency, they don't want combat to be drawn out if at all possible. They aren't clad in giant armor with shields or wield oversized weaponry for a reason.
But exactly that was my impression of TW2. Geralt had a real "floating" way of combat and he was pretty light-footed.
I think the main problem in TW2 is only that the animations can not be interrupted in between and that the targeting system is sometimes a little bit too slow. Aside from that Geralt had an elegant and fast fighting style in TW2, and IMO the dodges were a big part of it (though - like stated previously - they were a little bit too much).
Don't mind if TW3 combat system has the same responsiveness as the Batman games, but for the rest... Let's just say, my 10 year old brother just managed to complete Batman AA without too much trouble. So I'm hoping for something a bit more complex. But they said themselves that they don't want to draw too much of a comparison, and I trust that CDPR is going to give us challenging combat.
Indeed. For the love of God, No Immediate Counters! If you wanna counter an opponent, you should at least need to put a little effort in it.
I'm hoping for a game where you really must rely on your full arsenal of equipment, without there being just one specific ability or potion that can get you through the entire game, or for there to be one specific build that will by far trump all.
Maybe my experience is a bit irrelevant, since I haven't played Witcher 2 yet, but Witcher 1 became a bit disappointing, challenge wise, pretty early into the game. Tactics were summarized by drinking Swallow; any other potion was just for show. And as long as you leveled up your strength and dexterity abilities, and used Igni, things were fairly simple. I also didn't see much reward for trying different builds. Not that there are many - mainly a Sign-focused character, or a melee focused.
The tactics-avenue is limited as-is, when the game isn't party-focused. Geralt should be given several building paths that each one is fairly different from the other. Nothing too fancy, either - just the classic fighter/rogue/mage focus in fantasy, in the context of The Witcher. Forcing him to develop into a jack of all trades is detrimental to the building aspect of RPGs.
Again, maybe my comment is completely moot after Witcher 2.
In the Witcher 2 you have that exact way of building your character and have to either decide between an "Alchemy" a "Magic" and a "Swordsmanship" skill tree or use a combination of them. You also have a fourth tree, the "Training" tree. It's basically your Witcher Standard tree. And Swallow only gives you +1 vitality regeneration
I agree in the hope that TW3 will again challenge us to use different combinations and all out arsenal in creative ways to beat our enemies.
The Witcher was a fairly easy game, yes. With The Witcher 2 expect tougher difficulty at the start. Things get a bit too easy towards the end, though. Definitely something CDPR need to work on for TW3.
Well, they said they would NOT have a system where monsters are rising in level WITH the player, which means later on "normal" monsters will probably pretty easy and that in the beginning big monsters will be pretty hard.
But what I always liked about the Witcher was that the difference was not so big. Geralt is basically just like a human fighter - with the difference that he has some signs and other abilities. But when he rose in terms of level he never gained any vitality or strength on hos own, you always had to upgrade that with euqipment and by using skill points. Which basically means aside from his skill abilities and his gear Geralt is in the end exactly as strong and as vulnerable as he is in the beginning. Which is IMO an amaing way to develop the POSSIBILITIES of a character (and slightly his stats) but to simultaneously keep his environment and the monsters around him a challenge.
And that is what I hope for in TW3 as well.
I hope for a complex system where we have to be fast BUT also strategic, where we have to use our full arsenal and quick thinking to eliminate hostiles, and where we can INDEED die by a few hits.
The combat in The Witcher 3 will be very intuitive and fluid. 2 days ago I spent some time only on fighting enemies and let me tell you, our designers have come up with great solutions. I won't get into too many details right now (there will be time for that in the future) but players will feel like real master swordsmen this time around It's much better than the one from Assassins of Kings. On top of that the fighting animations that Geralt will utilize are fantastic - it's like he's dancing with his swords. Just wait until you see it in motion
Okay, thanks for the info, I take your word for it
As long as it is challenging and not as easy as in AA, and as long as it requires strategy and the use of your arsenal while keeping it fluid I am all for it.
And YES, i do feel like in TW2 it was a very huge step in the WRONG direction, compared to TW1.
I see it the opposite way.
I think TW2 was a step in the right directions since TW1 was kind of a little boring and really too on-rails for me personally, not "flowing" enough, but I think that the TW2's combat had serious balance issues, especially in terms of the rolls and in terms of how much ROOM you had to maneuver, as well as in terms of how long it took Geralt to "finish" an attack animation ( and because enemies didn't flank you).
Haven't read the whole thread. But, remember TW series are RPG's. As such, the combat system needs to rely on CHARACTER skill not PLAYER skill.
That's ridiculous.
I think player skill and character skill need to be in harmony.
Especially in a game like The Witcher.
Geralt is experienced, yes, and leveling up is a part of an RPG.
But the Witcher is special here.
The way I see it is that in The Witcher the Skills were less about making you more powerful directly, and more about expanding your possibilities in combat, meaning that you could make a stronger sign, or that you could cause new effects, take 1 more potion or open up an alternate way to use signs (is supposed to be in TW3).
I think that is what made TW unique for me, that a lot of the skills - at least in TW2 - were not about making you DAMN powerful, but about expanding your possibilities. The Geralt at the start ( ~ level 10) and the Geralt at the end ( ~ level 35) - IMO were not that different aside from some slightly stronger signs, 1 or 2 more points of vigor and vitality, better equipment and more things in his/your arsenal. And that is something I liked about it.
That is what got me worried. I hated arkham combat. They say they're making the combat "fluid", but I want the PLAYER to make the combat fluid. I want the combat to look awkward and crappy when the player plays badly. It's all about visual feedback. I don't want to look at enemy health bars to look if I'm doing good in combat. I want to FEEL it. And that won't happen if the devs make it look awesome no matter what.
Also, this game and the devs have gotten a shitton of positive press and attenton all over the internet including forum, I think they can handle some criticism as well.
In Arkham Combat might be challenging in a way that you have to react quickly, the tactical side however is very minimal.
In the Witcher the combat is challenging as in "you die if you have no skill / didn't get used to it yet". You have to react quickly as well at times, at others you have to observe good, at others you have to experiment and find out the best way to deal with your foe. It is more tactical, more experimental, an it is less "click quickly to counter and stay fluid", because that might be challenging on it's own, but not the kind of challenge I want in an RPG, especially not in the Witcher.
I suppose it's this time of the year CDPR starts pissing me off again, following the "resolution hardly matters" PR-bullcrap interview with that.
Everybody... everybody wants to copy the Arkham Asylum combat system, just please... every dev ever... STAPH.
Stop for christ sake, AA is at first an action game, WItcher 3 is supposed to be an action RPG. Yes, W2 combat system could use improvement, mostly more mobility and more interesting moves ( and no, I heavily dislike W2's FCR ). It's funny, but combat felt less varied than in W1. It wasn't bad, just single minded.
AI could use an improvement, we could do with more attack patterns and more specialised skill tree's. But, please no silly QTE execusions, no "insta-parry" by a push of a button, while you are in the middle of swining at another guy.
I almost forgot the early comparisons to Skyrim in each and every bloody (early) interview, but seriously CDPR, stay original, and I will stay classy. We have a deal? ( Yes, my entitlement level is over 9 thousand, but I am just seriously worried and getting more and more annoyed ).
I agree with most of this, I sure hope the new combat will be amazing because TW2 was kinda slow, stiff & boring.
I never really felt the action in my attacks, I want the controllers to shake/pulse/vibrate in new ways with each swing/sign/block/hit/dodge & attack.
If PC gamers hate it, then let them turn it off because I need this to enjoy the game. Same goes for people who are afraid that the game will be to easy,
I say give them some kind of a nightmare/darkmode mode free dlc later. I will play on easy because it keeps things flowing, truth be told I'm healing from an injury and sitting in a chair for more then 30 mins is no walk in the park. But things could change in a day, anything could happen. I might wake up next week all healed in body/soul & spirit just in time to play TW3. So be it by Faith or Grace or Nature or whatever cures me. I will let you all know and I will play TW3 on some kinda hard mode.
Thanks for reading my blabbering.
So...
Cheers fellow witcher fans worldwide!!
Heart Michael
I wouldn't mind if the Combat System borrows this and that from the Batman Series.
The combat from AA is not easy as some say, it's easy to learn but hard to master. That's a difference. I think some forget that there was also quite a lot foes where Batman just couldn't hit the A or Y button to deafeat them. They had body amor or shields or close combat weapons so that he had to get behind them or use special attacks. And I think this is how it also should be in TW3. We've already had some of this in TW2. So I don't understand all this fear about it.
I wouldn't mind if the Combat System borrows this and that from the Batman Series.
The combat from AA is not easy as some say, it's easy to learn but hard to master. That's a difference. I think some forget that there was also quite a lot foes where Batman just couldn't hit the A or Y button to deafeat them. They had body amor or shields or close combat weapons so that he had to get behind them or use special attacks. And I think this is how it also should be in TW3. We've already had some of this in TW2. So I don't understand all this fear about it.
Holy shit, there are foes you have to press more than two buttons to defeat /sarcasm.
Anyway, the fear is, that if combat will be just AA with swords... it will be an action game. Nah, out of the window with that. Your skills, your stats should very much matter, and various playstyles should be viable. AA... did not have a deep variation of possible playstyles, pretty much it's "stealth or beat the crap out of people".
Body armour? Ekhem... who does not have that, and the enemy with the "IMPENETRABLE ARMOUR, that you need to pretty much scrap out of him with attacks [ cause... that makes total sense ]" will be a bit of a weird if not... ekhem, retarded, choice for the enemy.
Tower shield guy you need to Aard, and work around the shield? Sure, good idea.
Better AI? Sure.
But the QTE's from AA, and lack of various playstyles ability... is bad. An ability to make a ripost at any moment of a swing? A chorrible... bloody chorrible idea... for an action-rpg.
For a beat them up, it's ok. In an action RPG it will end up making another Mass Effect 2 situation. In which you can spec your skill points into fuck all cause not only you hardly have a choice, but also the choice hardly matters, as you can just swing (shoot) your way into everything.
Balance, is what the game needs, and the AA combat system doesn't seriously offer anything interesting in my eyes in an RPG realm.
Again. The Witcher 2 had already some things of the combat systems of AA. You can counter attack in any direction just like in AA. You just have to put a skill point in it. With Aard you can stun enemies, espially the ones who have shields or heavy armor, same goes for Batmans cape. Geralt can throw knives and bombs at his foes, Batman can throw his batarangs.
You see both games have something in common.
I'm not saying the combat should exactly be like this but the Witcher series could learn some of the combat flow the Batman series already have.
Crowd control like it was mentioned before. Besides TW2 is in its combat system an action rpg. The lines between genres are blurred nowadays.
But also the combat system shouldn't be as fast as in AA. And the devs already said it will be more slowd down than in TW2.
I'd personally prefer a Dark Souls (2) approach to combat mechanics. I played Batman without ever really having to understand anything about the combat system. I just pressed some buttons and it mostly worked seemingly all by itself.
Doesn't has to be as hard as Dark Souls, but that can easily be done by tweaking some numbers and doesn't really relate to he mechanics.
Again. The Witcher 2 had already some things of the combat systems of AA. You can counter attack in any direction just like in AA. You just have to put a skill point in it. With Aard you can stun enemies, espially the ones who have shields or heavy armor, same goes for Batmans cape. Geralt can throw knives and bombs at his foes, Batman can throw his batarangs.
You see both games have something in common.
I'm not saying the combat should exactly be like this but the Witcher series could learn some of the combat flow the Batman series already have.
Crowd control like it was mentioned before. Besides TW2 is in its combat system an action rpg. The lines between genres are blurred nowadays.
But also the combat system shouldn't be as fast as in AA. And the devs already said it will be more slowd down than in TW2.
I disagree. The lines between generes are still there. "Action-RPG" sends a clear message.
Combat governed by your own positioning and knowledge, by levels and statistics, and by a bit of RNG ( critical chance, stun chance, etc. ).
Combat flow? Hmm. Not very much sure what you mean by that. I have some ideas how to improve on WItchers 2 combat system, but that's not a thread for that.
I'd say if combat in Witcher 2 would just be a bit more fluid... it would be even better.
What I associate with AA combat, is the "press a button to parry while the guy has thunderbolts above his head, does not matter if you just took a swing at the guy in oposite direction" and "QTE". Both ideas are bloody bloody horrible in my eyes.
Positioning is a very important part of combat and AA combat system forgets about it.
I'd personally prefer a Dark Souls (2) approach to combat mechanics. I played Batman without ever really having to understand anything about the combat system. I just pressed some buttons and it mostly worked seemingly all by itself.
Doesn't has to be as hard as Dark Souls, but that can easily be done by tweaking some numbers and doesn't really relate to he mechanics.
I like the Dark Souls combat system... to a degree, I think it could use more flexibility... and work on attack animations.
Sure, it's cool from balance standpoint for enemies to riddiculously mark their attacks and overswing like crazy, but it looks a bit meh in my eyes.
And seriously... The Witcher 3 better be bloody hard. I do not want another game that holds you by a hand for the entirety of it.
In AA you can counter attack immediately, with a long enough time and in any direction.
In TW2 you can only PARRY in any direction and counter attacks can only be made if you LOOK at the enemy with your camera perspective and only in a very short time window (1 - 2 seconds) when he attacks.
Only Loosely if you look exactly at them. If you generalize the abilities sure, but there are fundamental differences in how those mechanics work and which effects they have.
Crowd control like it was mentioned before. Besides TW2 is in its combat system an action rpg. The lines between genres are blurred nowadays.
There is still a difference, especially in terms of difficulty.
It might be challenging to play Batman AA on highest difficulty, but not really threatening or difficult. I can not recall even 1 time I died in Batman AA while TW2 has a pretty high death ratio if you do not know what you are going.
While Batman can knock out 50 goons if the players reactions are quick I highly doubt that TW2 would allow for something like that, at least not on a difficulty above easy and even not if you are fighting against inferior "sword fodder" creatures.
But also the combat system shouldn't be as fast as in AA. And the devs already said it will be more slowd down than in TW2.
EDIT: A video for you fitting to the topic. Start at 4:28. I think his response is going into a direction that we would appreciate, I can only talk for myself of course.
What game mechanics do you expect from the wild hunt?
For me most importantly a "strategic game" needs the possibility to learn many different new fighting techniques and not just an addition to a possible critical strike that I can only influence on a statistical basis. (something that can be learned from games like the batman arkham series, too. The stronger i got, the more aktively I could manipulate how i want to fight.)
A "dynamic game" needs the player to aktiveley manipulate those fighting techniques, so he feel like he executed them in an individual way.
Now if the developers want to have the dynamic system of batman arkham city - i like the idea- then it should also take inspiration from games like Prince of Persia or Darksiders ( not assassins creed! )
The game itsself always felt like it wanted to have a BLEND of Prince of Persia, but never really trusted it.
Are there any other suggestions you wish the developers to notice to improve the game? Or simple things you missed in the other two installments?
Give me some feedback or write down some of your own Ideas.
I think there only has to be one major adustment: animation based "realisitic" dodging and parrying instead of rolling. Geralt should have a big variety of dodging and parrying animations which he should use based on the respective attack (animal attack or weapon attack). Rolling away should imo only be an emergency-action that costs a huge chunk of stamina if you really had to leave a fight quickly to recover or rethink your tactics. The rest of the fighting sytem of TW2 is imo pretty solid but more animations and more attack and defense patterns are always appreciated.
I think there is also much room for improvement in the actual collision mechanics. It should be visible where a weapon hits a body or an animal claw hits a body and defense mechanis like parrying or dodging should exactly avoid or use this very collision spot.
Edit: The combat should definitely not be like the Batman games.
I mean, especially against huge monsters. It makes sense you have to roll away and dodge because those creatures are enormous, they are powerful and you have to feel that.
In terms of human enemies I would prefer a more eye-to-eye way to combat them, in a way that you do not have to dodge that often but can break the defense of a Shield Enemy for example or find other creative solutions to damage enemies like Archers (from afar) and Shield Enemies (I liked the mages/sorcerers though).
The only thing I can really say which would be nice is to make the combat more dynamic, that is to have more actual PHYSICAL effects of signs like Igni and Aard for crowd control, to enable you to dodge more dynamically and to have 1 or 2 attack combinations.
But aside from that I think it was fine (I didn't like TW1's combat).
I'm looking forward to what the new combat system is going to be like. Personally I found TW2 challenging to get used to initially. I dreaded nearly every battle. It didn't feel balanced. Eventually I got good at rolling and backstabbing and it just became the technique you could spam. A lot of other mechanics sorta became redundant. With Batman, esp AC, the fighting was fun. Most of all the freeflow mechanics made you feel like Batman. You felt badass. But you also had to avoid being overwhelmed or implement some strategy against different enemies (like mutated and armed enemies).
I'm hoping TW3 mixes some of that freeflow combat style without feeling like a ripoff of AA/AC.
It's much better than the one from Assassins of Kings. On top of that the fighting animations that Geralt will utilize are fantastic - it's like he's dancing with his swords. Just wait until you see it in motion
