Dragon Age: Inquisition

[s-jay2676]

Of course they make a big deal out of it. Sexual orientation is not a defining trait for a character. It does not tell anything but which gender s/he is attracted to - we do not know more about his/her goals or behavior, nothing about what interaction with him/her will be like, by knowing the sexual orientation. Nothing that is of any relevance to a roleplaying game, if it is not supported by the narrative. And while we do not know all about the plot of DAI, I think it is safe to assume that sexuality is not one of the pillars upon which it is built. So, what good is it for a marketing campaign to put so much ephasis on "romancing options" but pandering to certain audiences? What does that information tell us about the quality of the game or what the game has to offer?

http://www.dragonage.com/#!/en_US/news/character-profile-dorian
Have you read this? I think that shows that there is more to Dorian than his sexuality. Please show to me when did they put much emphasis on romancing options. The only time they talked about it was at GaymerX. I think your mistaking fan talk with actual Bioware announcements.

 

[s-jay2676]

In what way ? If a developer includes LGBT characters that are shallow and superficial in a game to only give a nod to the LGBT community then in my opinion they are doing them a disservice .

It is your opinion that the characters are shallow and superficial. This doesn't make it true. Many players see it differently. Are you saying that all of them are wrong?

 

[Blooddrunk]

You right they are just as human as everyone else, so there should not be any reason to not include content that they would enjoy. Besides Bioware does not make a big deal out of it. They have introduced every companion with a short interview and talked at GaymerX about romances. I think that's a reasonable amount.

They are not disgusted because everyone has a different opinion. You don't like the characters and that is fine. I don't like the LGBT characters in the Witcher games and find their portrayal disgusting and this is also fine. And I don't agree that the Witcher games have more quality that Dragon Age. I think it's the other way around. Again just my opinion.

Almost every news i saw for DA:I has been nothing but romances. What bothers me is that Bioware said they are not big part of their games since you can completely avoid them, yet they are keep shoving down political correctness down our throats and etc.

I don't dislike romances, i dislike the way Bioware is marketing them. You have gay characters in your game? I'm perfectly fine with that, however don't make big deal out of it by posting this stuff in media and make yourself look like your game is above everything. For god's sake we could already pursue s/s romance in KOTOR and they never made any big deal out of that.

 

[tommy5761]

It is your opinion that the characters are shallow and superficial. This doesn't make it true. Many players see it differently. Are you saying that all of them are wrong?

I`m not saying anything other than what the statement implies .

 

[chance52]

What valid points? You said about Dorian "He likes to 'look dashing' first and save the world second." then you talked about Arcade Gannon followed by saying that people dislike pandering. And they should dislike it, but including LGBT characters is not pandering at all. Besides, it really seems that you formed your opinion of Bioware's writing quality of this character based on one sentence. Is that one of the valid points you mentioned? Or maybe you meant something like that "aside from the fact Dorian looks like he could be marching in a gay parade" posted by Slimgrin?

I honestly cant tell if you are trolling.

You bring up the topic sentence in this thread "I am surprised how many people on this forum are against LGBT characters.' to which repeated posts by multiple people assert the exact opposite.

I bring up points saying people like many gay characters, using Arcade as only one example, and that people have a problem with Bioware's portrayal of gay characters.

I bring issue with the quality of writing for these characters by Bioware and provide two examples. Dorian's introduction to the press/customers (not his entire dialogue tree) and a screenshot of homosexual relationship dialogue from DAII.

I said that "people feel that Bioware uses unfavorable stereotypes " and here is Dorian, introduced as a character that care's more for his appearance then helping others. And as for his in depth character profile I would take issue with that as many more people only saw that 'dashing' graphic than looked at his character profile. Why? Because it was his introduction to the media/fans graphic, his in depth character sheet you had to go searching for, if you were so inclined to do so on your own.

I mentioned pandering and said Bioware uses a diversity checklist to defend itself against valid critiques. I agree with your statement though, including LGBT characters isn't pandering in and of itself. However, the way Bioware, specifically Bioware, uses diversity in the past and perhaps even in DAI (cant know that yet) is pandering, IMO.

Csàszàr mentions that "Including specific race, sex, sexual preference, or religious characters makes not a good game. It's about how well of a character they are."

Tommy, Slimgrin and eskimoe all said that the inclusion of shallow and poorly flushed out written characters that happen to be gay would be a disservice, not a nod to the LGBT community. That a character has to be well written first, not just gay first as many see Bioware doing.

Veleda makes the point that they liked gay characters in other games but doesn't like Bioware's self congratulatory trumpeting to everyone in the media that they have gay characters or the quality of Bioware's recent writing.

How many examples would be enough? But rather lets focus on that one sentence gay pride parade joke out of all the replies instead...

 

[Blothulfur]

You'd think that Bioware's insulting idiotic caricatures and the poor quality of their last four games would make an impression on their fans, but they don't seem to want to acknowledge the poor quality of Bioware's writing, the moronic nature of their companions, the lack of even basic coherency and logic in their titles or the childish art design that a five year old could better. I say let the fans keep making up excuses for their beloved company and its poor performance, Bioware's devs gotta eat and it's a waste of time trying to argue with these people.

They obviously don't want well written characters, realistic and authentic gameworlds, hard moral choices and challenging gameplay they just want idiotic caricatures pandering to a politically correct agenda with no real depth to them, a modern world with a thin veneer of renaissance fayer flavour, upper right or lower right morality and middle right cheesy squeeing humour suitable for them, and boring pop a cooldown or potion gameplay. That's their choice and they should be welcome to it, and if bioware can successfully milk sales out of these people by pretending they give a shit about the LGHTDFJ cause then all the more power to them, especially when they don't even have to make potent or interesting LGNKIOFN characters.

Sucker born every minute, somebodies gotta make money off 'em. Wonder if I could get in on this shit somehow?

 

[s-jay2676]

I honestly cant tell if you are trolling.

You bring up the topic sentence in this thread "I am surprised how many people on this forum are against LGBT characters.' to which repeated posts by multiple people assert the exact opposite.

I bring up points saying people like many gay characters, using Arcade as only one example, and that people have a problem with Bioware's portrayal of gay characters.

I bring issue with the quality of writing for these characters by Bioware and provide two examples. Dorian's introduction to the press/customers (not his entire dialogue tree) and a screenshot of homosexual relationship dialogue from DAII.

I said that "people feel that Bioware uses unfavorable stereotypes " and here is Dorian, introduced as a character that care's more for his appearance then helping others. And as for his in depth character profile I would take issue with that as many more people only saw that 'dashing' graphic than looked at his character profile. Why? Because it was his introduction to the media/fans graphic, his in depth character sheet you had to go searching for, if you were so inclined to do so on your own.

I mentioned pandering and said Bioware uses a diversity checklist to defend itself against valid critiques. I agree with your statement though, including LGBT characters isn't pandering in and of itself. However, the way Bioware, specifically Bioware, uses diversity in the past and perhaps even in DAI (cant know that yet) is pandering, IMO.

Csàszàr mentions that "Including specific race, sex, sexual preference, or religious characters makes not a good game. It's about how well of a character they are."

Tommy, Slimgrin and eskimoe all said that the inclusion of shallow and poorly flushed out written characters that happen to be gay would be a disservice, not a nod to the LGBT community. That a character has to be well written first, not just gay first as many see Bioware doing.

Veleda makes the point that they liked gay characters in other games but doesn't like Bioware's self congratulatory trumpeting to everyone in the media that they have gay characters or the quality of Bioware's recent writing.

How many examples would be enough? But rather lets focus on that one sentence gay pride parade joke out of all the replies instead...

Believe me i understood that people don't have a problem with LGBT charcaters but rather with Bioware's portrayal of them. That's fine, it is your opinion. Mine is different because I have a problem with CDPR's prtrayal of LGBT characters. Bioware is not perfect but better than CDPR. But apparently saying this makes me a troll.

"I am surprised how many people on this forum are against LGBT characters." was directed toward the comments that the game is based on books and that it makes the world more realistic. I don't agree with those reasons. Sorry, if someone felt offended by it. It was not my intention.

 

[Blothulfur]

So the LVGTKJ<MGVT characters of the Witcher are portrayed in a problematic light because they're powerful, clever, ambitious, likable and most of all independent whereas the Bioware characters who are idiot slaves, unmotivated, incapable and incompetent, not even able to dress or arm themselves appropriately, while coming and going for years at a time at someone elses orders are good characters.

Fuck that i'll stick with CDPR's characters rather than the insulting caricatures Bioware designs.

 

[Aaden]

http://www.dragonage.com/#!/en_US/news/character-profile-dorian
Have you read this? I think that shows that there is more to Dorian than his sexuality. Please show to me when did they put much emphasis on romancing options. The only time they talked about it was at GaymerX. I think your mistaking fan talk with actual Bioware announcements.

I never said that there isn't anything more than sexual orientation to any particular character. I said that promoting the sexual orientation bears no meaning. You can't deduce anything from it in regards to the character.

Regarding emphasis: At least three (Vivienne, Iron Bull, Dorian) Character Profile Interview Blog thingies include sexual preferences, maybe more. The total number of romances was revealed like it was some kind of feature. Dorian's introductory image (the one posted above) and quote about his desire to look good clearly points to the painfully stereotypic depiction of his homosexuality - could they not have chosen a quote regarding his background with the Tevinter mages instead? Numerous interviews at least partially were about romances. That clearly is too much for something that, looking closely at what it is in terms of game design, is nothing more but possible outcomes of a dialogue mini game - romances have no major influence on anything in the game; they're just a decoupled dialogue minigame.

Believe me i understood that people don't have a problem with LGBT charcaters but rather with Bioware's portrayal of them. That's fine, it is your opinion. Mine is different because I have a problem with CDPR's prtrayal of LGBT characters. Bioware is not perfect but better than CDPR. But apparently saying this makes me a troll.

"I am surprised how many people on this forum are against LGBT characters." was directed toward the comments that the game is based on books and that it makes the world more realistic. I don't agree with those reasons. Sorry, if someone felt offended by it. It was not my intention.

I don't know how you get from "Is based on Source Material that depicts a world reminiscent of Medieval Europe" to "I am against LGBT characters"... that's just...

 

[chance52]

Believe me i understood that people don't have a problem with LGBT charcaters but rather with Bioware's portrayal of them. That's fine, it is your opinion. Mine is different because I have a problem with CDPR's prtrayal of LGBT characters. Bioware is not perfect but better than CDPR. But apparently saying this makes me a troll.

"I am surprised how many people on this forum are against LGBT characters." was directed toward the comments that the game is based on books and that it makes the world more realistic. I don't agree with those reasons. Sorry, if someone felt offended by it. It was not my intention.

Then I believe we misunderstood each other, I haven't read all 220 pages of this thread and didn't realize your statement was targeting specific comments you read.

Also having a different outlook didn't make me think you might be a troll, using a clear joke made by someone else as what I might consider a 'valid' counterargument made me wonder.

 

[s-jay2676]

I don't know how you get from "Is based on Source Material that depicts a world reminiscent of Medieval Europe" to "I am against LGBT characters"... that's just...

Someone was saying that the lack of LGBT content in the games is based on the fact that there was no LGBT content whatsoever in the books because the writer did not want to include it.

I'm gonna drop out of this discussion now, because I don't see any point in discusssing this further. I wish that CDPR would include some LGBT characters in their future projects.

 

[Blothulfur]

I always wonder why when CDPR make potent and interesting characters while Bioware make insulting caricatures, that CDPR are the ones who have the usual complaints from the usual sources? Is it simply that the Biodrones cannot see any fault in their beloved company, despite their poor record? Is it racism, that people look down on the ancient culture of Poland for stupid reasons? Is it because of the sex cards from 2007, which many people took exception to? Is it simply because Bioware are an older firm and have lots of sales, and thus the less clever believe their pandering to the lowest common denominator automatically legitimises anything they do? Is it because of Bioware's pandering and politically correct statements working on the less discerning, so that they don't have to make any good characters?

Certainly seems strange that the complainers don't want to acknowledge any facts, such as Ciri the main protagonist of the later novels is a lesbian, and that the sorcerers as a whole experiment sexually all the time. And that all these characters are far more in-depth, potent and nuanced than the one note caricatures of Bioware.

 

[JimmyQ]

I honestly cant tell if you are trolling.

But rather lets focus on that one sentence gay pride parade joke out of all the replies instead...

Did I miss that joke in this thread. I know I made such a joke in another thread recently. For the record, I meant nothing disparaging by it. It was meant merely as hyperbole based on the apparent atmosphere of discrimination in the Witcher world. People simply aren't going to be open about their lgbt inclinitions in the Witcher world, much less parade. I wouldn't expect CDPR to add a larger number of characters we know are lgbt than they already have, cuz it wouldn't make sense for many characters to be open about their sexuality if it isn't in any way important to those characters or the story.

 

[chance52]

Bottom of 219, but I don't even think slimgrin meant it disparagingly either.

 

[dragonbird]

Someone was saying that the lack of LGBT content in the games is based on the fact that there was no LGBT content whatsoever in the books because the writer did not want to include it.

I'm gonna drop out of this discussion now, because I don't see any point in discusssing this further. I wish that CDPR would include some LGBT characters in their future projects.

As I recall, this was also corrected as the statement was incorrect, with regards to both the books and the game, but I do think you're right about not discussing it further. This is a thread about DA:I, not The Witcher, and I think it's probably time we got back to the topic.

 

[chance52]

I would honestly love if this game turned out to be good, but I'm still gun shy after DA2. I loved DA:O so much DA2 was a preorder no-brainer for me, plus all the preview reviews from major sites were all glowing reviews before release...

What are some good, honest, reviewers to watch out for? I know a lot automatically give anything EA related 9/10 10/10 scores and their magazines are coincidentally filled with ads for EA games.

 

[dragonbird]

I would honestly love if this game turned out to be good, but I'm still gun shy after DA2. I loved DA:O so much DA2 was a preorder no-brainer for me, plus all the preview reviews from major sites were all glowing reviews before release...

What are some good, honest, reviewers to watch out for? I know a lot automatically give anything EA related 9/10 10/10 scores and their magazines are coincidentally filled with ads for EA games.

For text-based reviews, I like Erik Kain over at Forbes. He got stung into accepting EA's initial "it's because everyone's homophobic" initial explanation for the hate on ME3, and I think he'll take care this time not to get caught up in any hype. He's usually pretty unbiased (apart from a really strong prejudice in favour of Dark Souls)

 

[volsung]

http://www.dragonage.com/#!/en_US/news/character-profile-dorian
Have you read this? I think that shows that there is more to Dorian than his sexuality. Please show to me when did they put much emphasis on romancing options. The only time they talked about it was at GaymerX. I think your mistaking fan talk with actual Bioware announcements.

I read that link you posted and I hope you at least read what I have to say. I don't care whether a character is gay, bisexual, pansexual, or whatever. Characterization serves a purpose in narrative, and if a talented author envisions a story where a character's sexual preferences have some impact then by all means, develop them. Otherwise it's just narrative noise, like describing somebody's nose while talking about their academic achievements.

About that link, I agree that the character is more than just the embodiment of gay. But did you even consider what Gaider was saying? I played DA:O twice, Awakenings once and DAII once. I'm not the biggest fan there is, and even I could see through the cracks of his character construction. Just consider this:

He was raised in a society where both intelligence and wit are prized, where advancing yourself socially means outmaneuvering your peers, and he does so quite well… or, at least, he would if he didn't see through it all.

Tevinter's social structure is largely based around intelligence, not sexuality. This intelligence involves social manipulation and scheming, and this character is adept at it.

a society where mages are trained to use it rather than hide it

Tevinter is also not afraid of using powerful magic (or other means to an end). They do not abide by the same rules the rest of the world does.

control of spirit and the dead—things societies outside of Tevinter might turn up their noses at and claim "distasteful."

For instance, they even delve in the control of spirits and the dead. They deal with magic others might find distasteful, they are not afraid of doing what must be done to achieve power. In other words, their morality differs from that of others. Their society is not built around strict rules of behavior.

he chose not to live according to the expectations of his society.

But he chose a different path... which is what? Not pursuing power? But I thought he had plenty of it. Not to be corrupt? Yeah... Maybe.

It added an interesting dimension to his back story, considering he comes from a place where "perfection" is the face that every mage puts on and anything that smacks of deviancy is shameful and meant to be hidden

Now Gaider says him being gay adds character. Because Tevinter is a place where they condemn deviancy and it is meant to be hidden? Seriously? What the FUCK is he talking about? Now Tevinter is like the Inquisition? What ever happened to the pursuit of power, corruption and being encouraged to delve into distasteful magic? Now they have a stick up their butt regarding something? If anything, it is Gaider saying that forbidden magic is OK but homosexuality is deviant and shameful.

And for fucks sake, this is what the wikia says about Tevinter:

The ban [of blood magic] is really only paid lip service to; even the most devout mages in Tevinter know at least the basics

They practice blood magic, but shudder to think about homosexuality? Dude... Dragon Age is homophobic.

 

[chance52]

Now Gaider says him being gay adds character. Because Tevinter is a place where they condemn deviancy and it is meant to be hidden? Seriously? What the FUCK is he talking about? Now Tevinter is like the Inquisition? What ever happened to the pursuit of power, corruption and being encouraged to delve into distasteful magic? Now they have a stick up their butt regarding something? If anything, it is Gaider saying that forbidden magic is OK but homosexuality is deviant and shameful.

That part bugged me too. In Dragon Age Origins, you find Tevinter slavers taking people out of their homes. In Dragon Age 2 you have a party member that is a runaway slave from Tevinter who tells you blood magic is rampant and slaves are used everywhere. Heck, the entire setting of the game is in a former Tevinter slave market.

So slavery, debauchery and using others blood to control thoughts and actions of those around you are OK in Tevinter, yet Dorian is an outcast because he is gay? I mean in all of DA:O/DA2 I never saw anything anti-gay, yet here is a character that's gay so he had to leave his home to be who he was? That sort of came out of nowhere in the Dragon Age 'world'

 

[volsung]

That part bugged me too. In Dragon Age Origins, you find Tevinter slavers taking people out of their homes. In Dragon Age 2 you have a party member that is a runaway slave from Tevinter who tells you blood magic is rampant and slaves are used everywhere. Heck, the entire setting of the game is in a former Tevinter slave market.

So slavery, debauchery and using others blood to control thoughts and actions of those around you are OK in Tevinter, yet Dorian is an outcast because he is gay? I mean in all of DA:O/DA2 I never saw anything anti-gay, yet here is a character that's gay so he had to leave his home to be who he was? That sort of came out of nowhere in the Dragon Age 'world'

Oh yeah, I forgot about the slave trade. But none of that is as deviant or shameful in Tevinter as, *gasp* a gay mage!