I've been wondering why the term "mutagens" shows up in articles so much. Is that what they're calling potions now or something?
Sounds good to me. The question is if the devs would actually take some of the excellent ideas and suggestions here to heart and use them to rework the alchemy system.I think they could make it possible to use both systems.
All they need is a certain type of special tool or procedure, and two special plants.
When you use a potion made without the tool and plant #1 it will kick in immediately.
Produce it with the tool and the plant #1 it will have to maybe digest longer. Then with the plant #2 you can make a potion that speeds up the process of digestion and that can be used at any time (it will have no other effect besides->(potions will kick in/ other "normal potions will not stop because they are already in the bloodflow).
As an example: You have to go into a cave - You have 4 potions (Cat (normal(without tool and plant#1 -and 2 special potions that you want to use later- 1 digestion potionplant #2)
you drink 3 right away -you can see in the dark have 2 effects on halt and can start them with potion 4.
And there they will have the opportunity to implement new equipment (extra place for flasks/craft new belts with more place (new shemata).
This way they will have both systems and all they need is 2 plants 1 tool and a few more belts for more place.
Maybe it could be that when you are outside in the wild you can just produce normal potions that kick in right after usage and in cities you can use alchemy tools in laboratories ( dont know if that is ok with the lore :/ ) to produce the "special potions". Because as far as i know the cities will be the quest hubs so it would make sense in ways of preperation
Let me know what you think about that
I'd take anything over that absurdly stupid auto-refilling mechanic any day of the week.
Is the petition still on the table? I have a feeling that the auto-refilling issue might have gotten buried under all the questions concerning the size of the world and stuff during the Q&A at SDCC.
And to wait another two and a half weeks for anything worthwhile on the matter to come out of Gamescom, if at all... Risky.
I don't have anything to add about the whole re-filling thing but one thing I'd really like in the alchemy system would be if instead of potions having positive effects and negative affects i think it would be interesting if they mostly just had only positive effects but they gave a debuff after the potion wares out. This would be just like in the books were geralt feels really sick after taking potions. Of course, they'd have to last quite a while or they'd just be a pain in the ass.
Mutagens are the "strong" potions, the permanent effect until cancelled ones.
Sounds good to me. The question is if the devs would actually take some of the really solid ideas and suggestions here to heart and use them to rework the alchemy system.I think they could make it possible to use both systems.
All they need is a certain type of special tool or procedure, and two special plants.
When you use a potion made without the tool and plant #1 it will kick in immediately.
Produce it with the tool and the plant #1 it will have to maybe digest longer. Then with the plant #2 you can make a potion that speeds up the process of digestion and that can be used at any time (it will have no other effect besides->(potions will kick in/ other "normal potions will not stop because they are already in the bloodflow).
As an example: You have to go into a cave - You have 4 potions (Cat (normal(without tool and plant#1 -and 2 special potions that you want to use later- 1 digestion potionplant #2)
you drink 3 right away -you can see in the dark have 2 effects on halt and can start them with potion 4.
And there they will have the opportunity to implement new equipment (extra place for flasks/craft new belts with more place (new shemata).
This way they will have both systems and all they need is 2 plants 1 tool and a few more belts for more place.
Maybe it could be that when you are outside in the wild you can just produce normal potions that kick in right after usage and in cities you can use alchemy tools in laboratories ( dont know if that is ok with the lore :/ ) to produce the "special potions". Because as far as i know the cities will be the quest hubs so it would make sense in ways of preperation
Let me know what you think about that
I'd take anything over that absurdly stupid auto-refilling mechanic any day of the week.
Is the petition still on the table by the way? I have a feeling that the auto-refilling issue might have gotten buried under all the questions concerning the size of the world during the Q&A at SDCC.
And to wait another two and a half weeks for anything worthwhile on the matter to come out of Gamescom, if at all... Risky.
OK. I don't know why they're so intent on having something called mutagens in every game, given that the books and Witcher 1 make it clear that Witchers can't actually use mutagens anymore. If they could, there'd be more Witchers. I guess they just really like the word "mutagen". To be fair, it is a pretty good one.
I believe this time it's to draw a parallel to The Witcher 2, where you could apply mutagens to slots in the skill tree and they'd become permanent buffs. In The Witcher 3 they're going to be similar, only more useful, removable or replaceable, and toxic like the rest of the potions.
What I found quite interesting was in one of the recent interviews there was this:
Could it be possible that they're making some changes to the system and have been told to go silent on the system for awhile?
I know at E3 if someone asked, they were happy to answer with all the auto-refilling stuff. Now here he doesn't want to answer it.
I dunno, perhaps just this Red didn't want to say anything and there's other interviews where they were still answering it - but I just found that interesting.
Could it be possible that they're making some changes to the system and have been told to go silent on the system for awhile?
I know at E3 if someone asked, they were happy to answer with all the auto-refilling stuff. Now here he doesn't want to answer it.
I dunno, perhaps just this Red didn't want to say anything and there's other interviews where they were still answering it - but I just found that interesting.
Adding my 2 cents:
Auto-refilling is a dumb idea. I think it was KingMilhouse who said that if they applied it to potions they might as well have auto-refilling orens as well, and I agree with that point. It would be particularly stupid if rare ingredients were auto-refilling, or if there weren't any rare ingredients.
If they want players to be unafraid to use potions, or at least to be motivated to do so they could do the following:
- make potions useful, and in some cases indispensable
- make one or two quests that require the player to use potions, and one should be there early in the game
- make some ingredients common; if you don't want to spend time populating the world with plants then make a few herbalists that sell them
- give the player extra experience points (or a talent) after drinking or brewing a certain number of potions
- Use investment psychology. Players are more likely to do something if they've already invested in it. Make a small investment in the alchemy skill tree beneficial, but wait a while for a larger investment to pay off. This way most people will invest a little into alchemy, constantly use potions, and yet won't be overpowered as a result.
Auto-refilling is a dumb idea. I think it was KingMilhouse who said that if they applied it to potions they might as well have auto-refilling orens as well, and I agree with that point. It would be particularly stupid if rare ingredients were auto-refilling, or if there weren't any rare ingredients.
If they want players to be unafraid to use potions, or at least to be motivated to do so they could do the following:
- make potions useful, and in some cases indispensable
- make one or two quests that require the player to use potions, and one should be there early in the game
- make some ingredients common; if you don't want to spend time populating the world with plants then make a few herbalists that sell them
- give the player extra experience points (or a talent) after drinking or brewing a certain number of potions
- Use investment psychology. Players are more likely to do something if they've already invested in it. Make a small investment in the alchemy skill tree beneficial, but wait a while for a larger investment to pay off. This way most people will invest a little into alchemy, constantly use potions, and yet won't be overpowered as a result.
Agreed, if we are indeed going to do it we should do it sooner rather than later so the devs can have time to make changes if they decide to do so
Considering that there are just 5-6 months tops of development time left it's definitely a risk, true, but one worth taking, as far as I'm concerned.
With the "auto-refill" issue and alchemy related questions having an apparently guaranteed spot in one of the upcoming Gamescom interviews with CD Project RED (#6, #3, #28) the matter should make a comeback into the public gaming conscience and, in case the developers confirming to hold on to the simplified alchemy system without exception, should (re-)rustle the jimmies of quite a few people, making them even more eager to then sign up for a petition.
There couldn't be a better moment to get the petition rolling, if you think about it.
That's somewhat reassuring, I guess.
Still, a straight "Yes, we might have gone a little bit overboard with auto-refilling potions and are currently revising the alchemy system and its mechanics to be more in line with the tried and true iterations of the alchemy system in the 2 previous games" would be nice.
If they're sure they're on to an appropriate implementation, they can justify not doing what any petition demands just as well as they can justify not doing what is being demanded in this thread.
I still think auto-refill beats the TW2 potion making system, which was nothing but housekeeping. Either give us meaningful things to do in potion making, or make it automatic so we don't have to waste time on it.
I still think auto-refill beats the TW2 potion making system, which was nothing but housekeeping. Either give us meaningful things to do in potion making, or make it automatic so we don't have to waste time on it.
I agree.
That seems the most reasonable course of action.
I feel the issue with a petition, any petition, is that its strength or weakness lies with the number of people who sign it. If that number is deemed low then the petition might be outright dismissed irrespective of the merit of its points. That's the risk. I also feel that any petition worded as a demand is a stillborn. Fans are in no position to demand anything. Lastly, there's the question of how opportune it is to start revamping alchemy six months before release.
Having said that, if after Gamescon, where Devs will likely be given a chance to explain themselves, if they reiterate their determination to implement an auto-refilling system, if a carefully worded petition surfaces, explaining why the new system is a shipwreck, why it is a problematic solution to an imaginary problem, if that petition lists the far better viable alternatives which have already been provided, if such petition surfaces, I will sign it.
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Yeah, I kind of think we might as well just wait for Gamescom and see what they have to say there.
But I would like to remind people: Auto-refilling has basically become the new horse-armor joke, is that what you want?
But I would like to remind people: Auto-refilling has basically become the new horse-armor joke, is that what you want?
I think that the current alchemy system should be changed, at least under the aspect of the graphical representation of the potions' effect, that should be taken into account when formulating a petition, in my humble opinion.
I'm telling you this because, to me, showing Geralt's body reaction to the potions would enhance the feeling of "secret substance", of esoteric and forbidden.
A further motivation is the lore fidelity. The more it shrouds the game in every aspect (be it gameplay, story, costumes or dialogues), the more unique is the experience.
And if the effects are made visible, then also the act of drinking should, resulting in an even greater realism.
Potion brewing could be interactive, just like the crafting system in "The last of us".
For what concerns the auto refilling system, a solution could be that, once you have found all the ingredients to brew a potion, the quantity at your disposal is diplayed by the level of the liquid in the bottle.
At every use, the level will lower in an almost imperceptible way, and only after something like 25-30 sips or more the bottle will be empty. At the higher difficulties the available sips per potion will decrease dramatically (min 2- max 8 ).
In this system, the ingredients should be searched again only when the bottle is empty or, if the developers find this too hard to implement for the few months left for the changes, only the first time you brew the potion, that you must re-brew.
If developers make going after ingredients funny, then also alchemy system will be satisfying in return.
I'm telling you this because, to me, showing Geralt's body reaction to the potions would enhance the feeling of "secret substance", of esoteric and forbidden.
A further motivation is the lore fidelity. The more it shrouds the game in every aspect (be it gameplay, story, costumes or dialogues), the more unique is the experience.
And if the effects are made visible, then also the act of drinking should, resulting in an even greater realism.
Potion brewing could be interactive, just like the crafting system in "The last of us".
For what concerns the auto refilling system, a solution could be that, once you have found all the ingredients to brew a potion, the quantity at your disposal is diplayed by the level of the liquid in the bottle.
At every use, the level will lower in an almost imperceptible way, and only after something like 25-30 sips or more the bottle will be empty. At the higher difficulties the available sips per potion will decrease dramatically (min 2- max 8 ).
In this system, the ingredients should be searched again only when the bottle is empty or, if the developers find this too hard to implement for the few months left for the changes, only the first time you brew the potion, that you must re-brew.
If developers make going after ingredients funny, then also alchemy system will be satisfying in return.
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There are many elements of an RPG that, if done poorly, I will never bother dealing with. These can include: Crafting, Alchemy and Blacksmithing.
In all cases, if it's easier/cheaper to just find something than make it yourself, then the system loses value. It the items crafted are of menial value compared to what is readily available, then the systems lose worth. What's the point of working hard to craft an improvement to a gauntlet, if you can ride into any store and pick from a selection of 7 which are, for their price, worth the time/effort/headache of crafting those items yourself.
Alchemy is no different. The major downside to potions and blade oils were that they were limited time and you had to preemptively apply them. How the heck am I to know when/where I'm going to need them. And having me be forced to have this precognition throughout the gameplay is asking too much of me. Instead, let me prep them, let me have them at the ready, and apply them IN battle.
IMO, crafting needs to be cheaper than outright buying. Buying should be the "quick & expensive" option to getting a product. Crafting's pro are items on the cheap for the con of having to do the legwork myself. If this is not maintained, and items are cheap to buy, readily available, or ingredients for crafting are too hard to come by, then chances are I will not partake in the act at all.
In all cases, if it's easier/cheaper to just find something than make it yourself, then the system loses value. It the items crafted are of menial value compared to what is readily available, then the systems lose worth. What's the point of working hard to craft an improvement to a gauntlet, if you can ride into any store and pick from a selection of 7 which are, for their price, worth the time/effort/headache of crafting those items yourself.
Alchemy is no different. The major downside to potions and blade oils were that they were limited time and you had to preemptively apply them. How the heck am I to know when/where I'm going to need them. And having me be forced to have this precognition throughout the gameplay is asking too much of me. Instead, let me prep them, let me have them at the ready, and apply them IN battle.
IMO, crafting needs to be cheaper than outright buying. Buying should be the "quick & expensive" option to getting a product. Crafting's pro are items on the cheap for the con of having to do the legwork myself. If this is not maintained, and items are cheap to buy, readily available, or ingredients for crafting are too hard to come by, then chances are I will not partake in the act at all.
In fact potions shouldn't be available in stores. Only you should be able to brew them, or if you could buy them, they should be REALLY expensive.
Then the crafting would make sense (consider that I was thinking about crafting also as the animation of geralt mixing the ingredients, just like Joel prepares explosives and weapons).
About preventive use of potions, I agree with you and I loved how Geralt drank in the middle of a fight in TW1 (tell me what you want, but it was too stylish).
But to be frank I don't think that they will change this aspect, so I'm insisting on the other points I made in my previous post.
But that is not the point here Aegis.
We all don't mind it if the potions hold longer this time around or if we can take them in combat.
We also don't mind that potions are limited so you are only able to take X ones during a fight
We absolutely LOVE that the toxicity seems to play such a big role.
Neither do most of us mind being able to purchase low-level herbs (not higher ones mind you).
Most of us also love the new upgrade idea and we think those "Mutagenic Potions" sound good it done right.
The one and only problem a LOT of us have is that atm (as far as we know from the devs) the potions are auto-refilling once you crafted them 1 time.
Which is complete bullsh** and does go against everything the system represents. It basically turns those potions and the preparation phase into buffs which can be applied most of the time and can be refilled any time.