Skyrim

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When I get my new PC I'll be giving Skyrim another shot. For some reason it was the first Bethesda game that bored me from the outset. I'm sure if I give it more effort I'll get sucked in. As for the linearity topic - I don't consider TES games linear in any way. Wrong term to apply. I've always felt they have a radiating or web-like structure, whereas Witcher is a branching structure that flows in one general direction. And we don't discuss it much anymore, but Witcher going open world could still be a mistake for a defined PC and dominant story. I recall one dev describing the narrative as the spine of the game, and literally everything grows from that, even gameplay elements. In contrast, TES games have a relatively weak main narrative, but great side content and open-ended gameplay. I just wish Bethesda would announce Fallout 4 already, or even confirm they're working on it. Imagine that game landing around the same time as CP 2077. I'll have to quit my job and sell my body on the streets for a living. :p
 
Does anyone know a place where Skyrim mappers can learn new techniques? The Creation kit is a very powerful tool that is also easy to use but the first 10 videos made by Bethesda only cover the absolute basics and my first level is quite a bit more complex than that. I've made some good progress on it but am stuck in certain areas, especially in the caves. Making this level is really fun and I have really high standards and. One day I hope to reach the level of expertise required to map for a big mod like Skywind.

Maybe I'll even share a preliminary version of the map, it is about 60% complete.
 
I don't think canon endings picked by devs make my choices irrelevant at all - they are a different interpretation, one I might well have chosen myself. At the time, my choices matter - and they will in the sequel. Knowing that the devs chose differently doesn't invalidate my choice in my game, at the time.

Now, if we were playing the same character again, that might be a bit of an issue, but we're not. TES lore doesn't make me feel my choices are relevant because it's vague, it makes my entire character seem vague. An unknown nobody who did some vague things and arrived at a predestined conclusion. That could be, and is, anyone.

Knowing that the Vault Dweller of canon made a choice I nearly made - and made several choices I did make, in fact - and now I play through those results, I find quite enjoyable. Like playing through my brother's world, or an alternate me.

The TES lore makes your character really a cipher, who contributed..something...to history in some predestined way. Playing through Fallout, I see the results of my choices - or other Me's choices - up close and personal.

It's just that as much as I like playing TES, I don't really feel I'm changing the world from what the devs intended - but in Fallout, I feel the devs and I share those same hard choices and, even if we occasionally choose differently, we both created the world from those choices.
 
I don't play the same character from game to game, but I do have my own headcanon idea of the hero of the last games. One character out of all of them that I see as "mine". If one holds to any sort of idea like that, it's thrown out the window the minute a canon ending is established. Makes your playthrough invalid because it couldn't have happened.

In fallout, any effect or changes you made are there, but you never hear about it or see their effects on the world. At least with the newest ones. The originals have now established canons, so that's pretty much that.

In The Elder Scrolls, it's left vague because you know what your character did and how they did it, and even if it isn't described in detail, you see and read about the effects of what happened in detail. Which is how I prefer it.
 
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Does anyone know a place where Skyrim mappers can learn new techniques? The Creation kit is a very powerful tool that is also easy to use but the first 10 videos made by Bethesda only cover the absolute basics and my first level is quite a bit more complex than that. I've made some good progress on it but am stuck in certain areas, especially in the caves. Making this level is really fun and I have really high standards and. One day I hope to reach the level of expertise required to map for a big mod like Skywind.
There's this site called TES Alliance that's all ES modders. They have tutorials and stuff.
http://tesalliance.org/forums/

I don't think canon endings picked by devs make my choices irrelevant at all - they are a different interpretation, one I might well have chosen myself. At the time, my choices matter - and they will in the sequel. Knowing that the devs chose differently doesn't invalidate my choice in my game, at the time.
How are your choices meaningful in the sequel if they don't coincide with the developers'?
 
How are your choices meaningful in the sequel if they don't coincide with the developers'?

Because some of them do. Because I know the choices they had were the same ones I squirmed over and because I can see how I might have gone another way. FNV, all three main choices had something to recommend and temp me about them, so the devs character -was- my character, with a twist. Because the background story and plot that informed that choice is one I went through myself and many of the devs choices were mine as well.

If you check the Fallout endings: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_endings

You'll see many choices. Now, we know which ones became canon, ( not the Join The Master one) and although I didn't have the exact gameplay canon result they picked, mine were pretty similar in my primary playthrough. Thus, I feel my choices were vindicated and in the other choices, well, it's like we're cousins, their protagonist and mine. I know how hard some of those choices were and I could totally see -my- Vault Dweller going down that path. I really feel like I made those choices, (save the ghouls, save the Vault, wipe out the Khans), and that reality mirrored my choices.

Gives it oomph for me.

It's the detail that makes it more real for me, not the exactitude of the choice. In TES, the detail is lacking and I have no sense of my character as a part of canon at all. Just another Nameless Hero that did stuff -predetermined stuff at that.
 
Then none of them do, really.

Of course they do. I don't need every single choice I make to be mirrored - for one thing, I can't recall more than half of them. Furthermore, lots of those choices were really close, given the grey area of Fallout games, so I could have gone either way many times - and in other playthroughs, I did.

What matters is that enough of the sequel-world resembles the one I built and it does, quite a bit.

Even more significant, the writers could have the bulk of your choices vanish in the winds of time or somesuch, a la TES, but they don't. You get to see how your decisions played out, both when the game ends and in the sequel.

If I get even half my choices reflected in the sequel then I absolutely feel my character and his choices created that world.

And he, or his clone-sibling played by the devs, did.
 
I don't see any meaningful distinction between the vault dweller and my TES character. Both are vague heroes. People here are expecting the wrong things from Beth games. I don't expect TES to slam me in the gut like when I have to choose between Ashley or Kaiden, or if I see a proud warrior like White Rayla sniped from the shadows by a coward. That kind of character involvement doesn't happen. I do expect a unique experience when I play out the family quest in Fallout 3, or the factions in Oblivion. The way we can make all that happen is wonderfully dynamic. They aren't your traditional C&C, story-based games.
 
Fallout 1 and 2 aren't Beth games. The original Vault Dweller did change the world, pretty drastically and in several very specific choices - ghouls, mutants, BOS, etc. Same for his descendant - and my Vault Dweller and my Tribesman felt very particular, unlike my many faded-into-history TES characters who affected the TES lore in a pretty minor way outside the main, predetermined, if you fail, reload plotline.

Guess we'll see how CDPR handles the W2 to W3 carry over, eh? Lots of variables to incorporate.
 
I don't buy it, sorry. My character "with a twist" isn't my character, it's someone else taking liberties with him, doing something he wouldn't have. I don't roleplay just to have someone do something I didn't with him. My character means too much in TES games and in fallout to me to accept that. So that's just simply where we differ. If only some of my choices are viable, then to me there really wasn't any choice to begin with. So I like that Beth has left those things out from Fallout 3, and that they keep things vague in TES.

That's just how I see it. I'd rather my character be mine and the story vague, or not detailed at all than have things forced on him.
 
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I don't buy it, sorry. My character "with a twist" isn't my character, it's someone else taking liberties with him, doing something he wouldn't have. I don't roleplay just to have someone do something I didn't with him. My character means too much in TES games and in fallout to me to accept that. So that's just simply where we differ. If only some of my choices are viable, then to me there really wasn't any choice to begin with. So I like that Beth has left those things out from Fallout 3, and that they keep things vague in TES.

That's just how I see it. I'd rather my character be mine and the story vague, or not detailed at all than have things forced on him.

Neither is ideal. Having things forced on your character or having things be vague and meaningless; both are detrimental to actual roleplay. In an ideal RPG you can go where you want, do what you want, make whatever choices you want, play whatever type of character you want... and what you do will have direct and meaningful consequences which are reflected in both the short and long term.
 
Neither is ideal. Having things forced on your character or having things be vague and meaningless; both are detrimental to actual roleplay. In an ideal RPG you can go where you want, do what you want, make whatever choices you want, play whatever type of character you want... and what you do will have direct and meaningful consequences which are reflected in both the short and long term.

Indeed, you're right. Neither is ideal, though to me the latter isn't meaningless so long as I can keep a headcanon, since the story is my own.

I'm not making an argument one way is superior to the other, since I play both series and they're both a breath of fresh air when I've been playing one over the other for a while. I just have a preference.

edit: Oh well, actually I've never played Fallout 1 and 2, lol so that wouldn't apply here. The breath of fresh air part. But still, I'm not saying one version of storytelling is superior to the other, though I'm certain some will disagree on that. Fallout New Vegas and 3 do still force some things on you though, the background mainly.
 
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It's the detail that makes it more real for me, not the exactitude of the choice. In TES, the detail is lacking and I have no sense of my character as a part of canon at all. Just another Nameless Hero that did stuff -predetermined stuff at that.
No offense, but everything you said is very subjective which is why this discussion is basically useless.

Also, the hero in TES games is left ambiguous. You're not assumed to have done pre-determined stuff. Someone did that stuff, but you can easily headcanon that your hero did whatever you want and someone else took the role of the prime mover of events. The vagueness allows this, which for some people is vastly preferable to a dev-aligned outcome. Again, subjective, so there's no sense arguing about it.

What I like is that the ES heroes generally set off unexpected events that, far from saving the world, actually bring on the next disaster. It's a nice subversion for me.
 
As a continuation of my previous posts in this thread.

Another set of problems with Skyrim relates to bad design choices the devs made:

1) There is no real variety in how creatures approach and attack you. As a huge part of the game it is just too simplistic for immersion. Skytest mod tried to fix this but only marginally improved things. Creatures just run at you and die on you sword dumb as toast, and that gets old quickly. For instance, caves could have dark holes in the walls for things to come out of and ambush. Creatures could sneak up on you. Nothing is more non-immersive than finding a huge spider in a sealed room ,,, where did it come from? What does it eat. Simply putting a dark hole in the cave which the spider can come in and out of fixes this problem. but not that the creature always sees you and attacks. Moreover, any part of a cave you can't see where it goes should strike instant fear into the player. Imagine holding up a lantern to a dark hole in the wall and coming face to face with a huge spider who then attacks. BUT all the caves are are bright as daytime so any suspense is impossible. Even mods that darken the caves don't help because the creatures themselves are programmed to be responsive to light or dark very well. Light should also be a weapon against certain creatures of the dark but it is not.

The next issue is that almost every spell and object in the game only serves one purpose ..... to kill stuff or get money to kill stuff. Chairs, books, beds, food, and light spells and a few other things in the game are exceptions. The author of Midas Magic made some interesting spells that could have made gameplay more interesting, but there is no way to use them effectively. Midas magic allows you to polymorph into giant, but it serves no purpose because you cant talk to said giants in that form and there are no real task suited to only a giants size. Likewise for a wolf. Imagine polymorphing into a wolf and being able to collect a whole wolf pack to follow you, or using your smaller size to get into inaccessible areas, or using that form to collect information. Even spells like invisibility are so poorly implemented that there really isn't much use for them. Skyrim nerfed invisibility to be useless because the gameplay wasn't designed to handle invisibility or stealth for that matter, they are just throwaway addons. Everything directly relates to killing and that is both unpleasant and unhealthy to roleplay.

Frostfall added a really interesting dimension to the game. Realistic needs and diseases helped too.
 
These complaints are all over the place, but I'll address the main points.

1. Creatures and enemies only approach combat in one way, run and die on your sword. False
For one, there's archers that run and stay away from you to deal ranged damage.
Two, dragons fly around and evade, dealing damage from a distance, landing sometimes or when you force them to, and they can even swoop down and grab you for a kill, though rarely. Still rather simple pattern, but a big improvement for TES.
Three, mages. Definitely do not rush you and instead stay back, run away to continue dishing out damage, or backpedaling. Sometimes even summoning things to help. Both archers and mages pull out weapons at times when appropriate.
Four, Wisp mothers try leading you into attack with their pretty wisps, then attack you with copies of herself and the wisps in an ambush.
Five, vampires also try ambushing by disguising themselves as vigilants. Swarm you with slaves and zombies.
Six, Falmer actually ambush and sneak on you in dungeons, as do sabre cats, who are rather good at it too.

Not perfect, but Bethesda shows that they're improving and will continue to.

2. Next, the spider... really? That's immersion breaking for you, of all the things you could have said? Practically every time I've seen a spider, it's in a cave or dungeon with plenty of exposed ground areas a spider of Skyrim's size could have easily burrowed into. And there are a number of locations where the spider is up in the ceiling in a spider nesthole waiting to pounce on you when you step under it. So there you go.

Next, all spells serve purpose simply to kill.

Invisibility spell, you don't have to use this to kill... telekinesis, pretty much only good for screwing around, restoration, turn undead, mage light, detect life, detect undead, transmute, waterbreathing, paralyze, equilibrium, calm, clairvoyance, yadya. There's more but you get the point. While some of these surely can assist in killing, it doesn't mean that's all they're for. Which is good because that adds variety. You did mention light spells but you missed a lot.

And how is invisibility useless? I've used it to great effect plenty. What they did is make it to where you couldn't abuse it. If you're running around like an idiot, people should be able to notice you. But if you can actually sneak, this helps out a good deal. No need to care about light. Stealth also works well, too well in fact. Their problem is the stupid npcs, though even dishonored hasn't escaped that issue fully. Also, werewolf and vamp lord should satisfy people's transformation needs I think. Wolves don't attack you in werewolf form, you can summon wolf spirits, and vamps can summon gargoyles.

In summary, go sit down. Everything does NOT relate to killing. Illusion was practically made to avoid killing as much as possible. Try a little harder in your criticism, please. It's not like you have to look hard to criticize the game.
 
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