The Yennefer/Triss choice in TW3

[Vigilance.492]

@irx
Any talks of being railroaded down a single romance path is mostly just people spit-balling ideas and ways they think it should or could play out.

Chances are, you will get a choice, I'm sure there's an interview somewhere that CDPR have even stated this. It seems absurd to put Yenn in the game and then not let us romance her, and there's that obvious romance scene going on with Triss during the SoD Trailer. How the story, relationships and romances will play out and how it will build up to the choice between the ladies is mostly the discussion.

 

[shawn_kh]

I'm sure that we are going to get a choice. Actually some of the RED's were really excited about this choice, and they confirmed that we are going to get a choice.
Please don't ask me for a source, because it was in one of the video interviews

 

[Kallelinski]

On 23rd Mr. Blacha posted a couple of interesting posts in Polish side of the forums, here is the translation.

(for those wondering what happened to our interview, we have some issues with time among other things - I hope it will be resolved soon)

The issue of the engagement of Geralt was for us, the writers, one of the most difficult problems to solve. The trouble came from couple of reasons:

- Many players don't know Yennefer at all. The forum is not representative in this respect, because it brings together the core fans and the game will be played by a wider range of people.

- Triss was Geralt's partner in the previous installments of the game, but again you have to acknowledge the fact, that not every player will be familiar - for example, many console players.

- From books we know, that Yennefer had a particular bond with Geralt. But the common experiences of Triss are livelier and more up to date. And sincere (because of amnesia).

- Oh and do not forget about Ciri. She's not a sexual partner, but then, love life is not just about sex. If Ciri is back in Geralt's life, it must be assumed, that Geralt begins to look at the world with her mind (sorry enigmatic, but do not want to reveal the details).

- There's plenty of other novelties and subtleties and various design issues that deserve separate treatment.

In any case, we had different ideas on how to implement threads of Geralt's relationships with the girls. Each of them had its advantages and disadvantages. As a result, we decided to do it according to three principles:

- So that the player was able choose his own way.
- So we can reproduce the situation from the books as well as possible and to create NPC of flesh and blood.
- So that we liked it. (Contrary to what people think, we often do things, that we do not like, but we know that will appeal to players).

The result is this: we have provided interesting female characters with their advantages and disadvantages, not shown merely as a partner for romance and we put your hero in certain situations with these girls. Also we try to choice was difficult. *
You [as fans] have the context in mind - wider or narrower, depending on whether you read the book and played the previous games - and given in the situation, choose what you want.
I think it's a good deal.

* Tough choice = tears, guilt, sleepless nights, silent "sorry", kissing a print a screenshot, maybe even rage quit ... (*dreamy*)

Replying to a comment referencing to dating sims (jokingly).

It is not like that.
At the shallowest level, you choose between two cool girls, with whom you shared the past.
But there is a deeper layer - hidden feelings, the choice between pride and love, between care and selfishness, between comforting someone and awakening their illusions.

Seriously - you will be the ultimate judge, because between the intention and the realization - the gap can often be immense. It may ultimately be a big 'meh'. The only thing I can promise is that we tried to do everything so that everyone, sensitive to the emotional relationships between the characters and to the meta-gameplay, will be happy.

This part is much more emotional, than the previous ones.

I'm not saying that everyone will cry like a beaver [that's a polish phrase - means CRY VERY VERY MUCH], but in my opinion, there should be tissues with tasteful wolf logo in the Collector's Edition.

Smiki55: "Bad. Very bad.. If you want to create a masterpiece, it must be appealing to you in the first place."

In video games the ultimate director and "final contractor" is the player. Especially in Witchers, where the story can be told in different ways. Writer is satisfied when the player can play in their own way and feels, that he got everything he needed to enjoy the game. This goal must be achieved in spite of a writer to various technical, production and budget constraints.

My satisfaction comes not from the story perfectly the way I would like, but IMO from player satisfaction. Perhaps masterpieces follow different rules, but it's hard for me to speak subjectively, because I've never created a masterpiece and I don't know how it really is. The only thing I can base things upon is my professional experience.

Soo, there is right choice and a not-so-right choice? Just kidding

 

[EliHarel]

I hope that the mechanics behind the scenes are complicated enough and do not amount to simply the player choosing by himself. What I mean is I want the characters to have a preference, some agency - and not just wait to throw themselves at Geralt's feet. I'd like for them to even be able to decide against a relationship, based on your actions.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Witcher 3 is not a Bioware game. Personally, I'm actually against any "playable romances feature" in Witcher games. That doesn't mean that love and other emotions shouldn't be part of the narrative. On the opposite, they should be sophisticateed, lifelike and true to the lore/canon. That kinds of limits the players influence on it. I would rather have CDPR deciding on such important stuff. Characters like Triss and Yen are much too important to make them simple decisions made by the player. And please, no sex as rewards for any quests or actions That's just stupid Bioware crap...

 

[Vigilance.492]

And please, no sex as rewards for any quests or actions That's just stupid Bioware crap...

What? This kind of stuff is heavily embedded into both Witcher 1 & 2 already... (Actually CDPR are far more guilty of this than BioWare - not that they should feel guilt or shame for doing it.)

The problem with BioWare isn't that you get "rewarded with Sex", it's that they try to play the Romances off as these grand interactions between characters when ultimately it boils down to you just talking to X NPC enough, picking the correct dialogue options and then going. "Yes I want to fuck you". It's a combination of their writers lacking the finesse to be able to pull romance off and not really understanding how to implement it properly into their game/narrative structure.

Whether you want to be with Yen or Triss, that should be up to the player, but there should also be consequences for your actions... Just like there's a "consequence" for picking Triss over Shani (Or Vice Versa) in TW1, there should similarly be a consequence here.
It's a Video Game, and more importantly it's an RPG where one of the main features of it is choice, and the ability to influence the Story/World/Characters based on those choices. I don't want CDPR to make my romantic choice for me, just because "that's what fits the lore" or any other excuse. I want well written characters with whom I can connect with, then based on that connection and my own personal feelings a choice can be made, one that feels natural and organic within the context of the Story/Events and has consequences even if only small.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

What? This kind of stuff is heavily embedded into both Witcher 1 & 2 already... (Actually CDPR are far more guilty of this than BioWare - not that they should feel guilt or shame for doing it.)

Yes and no. It's not the same "romance to sex" system than in Bioware games. You don't get rewarded with sex for talking to Triss in Witcher 2 for example. It just happens automatically during the narrative. Sex cards were of course present in Witcher 1 but that was more a minigame or achievement system than something that could called romance. And CDPR got rid of it on purpose in W2 I guess...

Whether you want to be with Yen or Triss, that should be up to the player, but there should also be consequences for your actions... Just like there's a "consequence" for picking Triss over Shani (Or Vice Versa) in TW1, there should similarly be a consequence here.

I don't agree. I rather want a sophisticated, lifelike, immersive set of complex relationships than simplified "options" just for the sake of having options.

It's a Video Game, and more importantly it's an RPG where one of the main features of it is choice, and the ability to influence the Story/World/Characters based on those choices.

First, being a video game is not an argument at all. Everything could be justified by that, even two completely opposite things. Having choice in a game doesn't automatically mean that you should be able to decide on everything. RPG is just a classification with which you try to describe a game in one word and not a predefined set of features a game must consist of. It should be up to the designers how to make their game and how much freedom they want to give to the players and how much control over the narrative they want to maintain in order to make it as immersive and realistic/lifelike as possible.

I don't want CDPR to make my romantic choice for me, just because "that's what fits the lore" or any other excuse. I want well written characters with whom I can connect with, then based on that connection and my own personal feelings a choice can be made, one that feels natural and organic within the context of the Story/Events and has consequences even if only small.

Well, I guess we just have to disagree here. I want exactly the opposite because I think you can never reach the same fidelity and complexity if you let the players "choose" here. To me fitting to the lore is not an excuse but a prerequisite if you create something based on existing stories and characters. CDPR understood that in W2 since they didn't sacrifice well narrated relationships for simple choice. Geralt started in a relationship with Triss no matter what and their relationship just naturally evolved during the game. Of course you could decide to not saving Triss later in the game but that had nothing to do with choosing between different romance options or anything like that but with having a difficult choice whether you prefer saving the ones close to you or trying to work for the greater good. I like such complex, sophisticated decisions that involve more than just one level and not such bland "Yen or Triss" style decisions which seem to be simplified "gamey" choices to me.

And just to make that sure, a possible choice between Triss and Yen would in no way be small. In fact, it would probably be the biggest decision in the whole game with massive consequences for the story and the Geralt's personal world. I know that the Witcher games are only non-canonical (fan) fiction but that'd stretch it way too far for my taste. You know, I love the Witcher books to the teeth and I love the characters that populate this world. Dumbing the complex and properly built up relationships between all these characters down to make such "Yen vs Triss" decisions even possible would hurt me in my heart to be honest. That's the core reason why I oppose this idea.

It seems absurd to put Yenn in the game and then not let us romance her

And it's quotes like that which makes me opposing the idea even more. Characters in games shouldn't be there to be able to "romance them" (is that even a proper word?). If you really know the books you should know that the relationship between Geralt and Yen is probably 100% more complex and sophisticated than everything which was offered in any video game up to date so far. I'm pretty sure that CDPR won't be fully able to capture their relationship on an appropriate level, both because it's a video game (and therefore a medium in which writing and the narrative is just part of the experience) and because they simply lack a writer with the skills of Andrzej Sapkowski. It's very likely already very hard trying to achieve that without involving any player choices. And you want to break that down to a "romancing option"? Hugh. I don't know whether that makes me more angry or sad tbh. Anyway, it pretty much strengthens the fear in me that I will probably kind of hate Witcher 3 for how extremely important characters like Yen and Ciri will be implemented...

 

[Sephira]

I'm pretty sure that CDPR won't be fully able to capture their relationship on an appropriate level, both because it's a video game (and therefore a medium in which writing and the narrative is just part of the experience) and because they simply lack a writer with the skills of Andrzej Sapkowski. It's very likely already very hard trying to achieve that without involving any player choices. And you want to break that down to a "romancing option"? Hugh. I don't know whether that makes me more angry or sad tbh. Anyway, it pretty much strengthens the fear in me that I will probably kind of hate Witcher 3 for how extremely important characters like Yen and Ciri will be implemented...

Well, we will see that, I have good hopes, and I trust CDPR.
I love the books too, and personally I'm not worried, because it's just too early to talk about it.

 

[Vigilance.492]

I don't agree. I rather want a sophisticated, lifelike, immersive set of complex relationships than simplified "options" just for the sake of having options.

Not going to quote everything and respond bit by bit but I'll just take this and do a general statement.

I think you've misunderstood me. In no way do I want the choice to be simple, or for that choice to get in the way of a complex/lifelike/immersive relationship with the characters.

In real life we get to make choices. In real life we get to make romantic choices. In real life this can be very complex and an intense situation for the person making the choice. If done correctly, CDPR can definitely allow the player to choose, but still make the decision intense and feel natural.
As I said, the way BioWare does it is wrong.. You talk to the NPC enough and eventually they go, "So you want to be with me?". I think this is the kind of "choice" that you think I want in The Witcher 3.. Absolutely not.

What I want is the game to craft natural, organic, emotional and engaging relationships between characters and then at some point the players will get to choose, but it being done so with the tact and finesse where it's not just, "Yea.. I want to fuck Triss", but a really thought provoking, intense and tough decision, one that doesn't feel like you're just arbitrarily selecting option A or B, but a decision like you would make in real life.
And frankly I think CDPR did a pretty damn good job with their main romances in the previous games (To the point where I actually think it's the most effectively pulled off romance/s in video games), so I have no doubt they'll do a good job at not making the "choice" feel stupid.

---------- Updated at 11:07 PM ----------

And it's quotes like that which makes me opposing the idea even more. Characters in games shouldn't be there to be able to "romance them" (is that even a proper word?). If you really know the books you should know that the relationship between Geralt and Yen is probably 100% more complex and sophisticated than everything which was offered in any video game up to date so far. I'm pretty sure that CDPR won't be fully able to capture their relationship on an appropriate level, both because it's a video game (and therefore a medium in which writing and the narrative is just part of the experience) and because they simply lack a writer with the skills of Andrzej Sapkowski. It's very likely already very hard trying to achieve that without involving any player choices. And you want to break that down to a "romancing option"? Hugh. I don't know whether that makes me more angry or sad tbh. Anyway, it pretty much strengthens the fear in me that I will probably kind of hate Witcher 3 for how extremely important characters like Yen and Ciri will be implemented...

You're taking what I said and running off in absolutely wild and frankly absurd tangents. As said above, you've entirely misunderstood my statement.
I'm not opting for dumbed down relationships.. I don't want it broken down simply into "romancing option" ... But... Well read above and if you still can't understand what I'm saying then really there's no point in all this.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

You're taking what I said and running off in absolutely wild and frankly absurd tangents. As said above, you've entirely misunderstood my statement.
I'm not opting for dumbed down relationships.. I don't want it broken down simply into "romancing option" ... But... Well read above and if you still can't understand what I'm saying then really there's no point in all this.

I don't think I misunderstood your statement but you obviously connected everything I've said on the topic 1to1 on what you said and that wasn't my intention. I just used your quotes to elaborate ony my own opinion. Sorry if that approach was a bit misunderstanding.

I never claimed that you want dumbed down relationships with the one exception that you want them to be included in player choice which is a kind of dumbing down for me. I'm very positive that giving people too much of a choice here very likely hurts the depth and complexity of relationships. So I rather don't want to have any options here at all. I guess that's one of the points we really disagree with each other. Much of the other stuff I've said is only meant to explain why i feel so.

And I know that we make choices in real life. But games are not like real life and they will never be. Games are the creative work of some people about a story they want to tell. It's not life 2.0. And there is a big difference between having a realistic, lifelike, immersive story with respective deep characters and life itself with all its components. It's absolutely impossible to translate the almost complete human freedom of real life to video games. You always have to limit this approach to very few options. There is a reason why books and movies usually have a lot more narrative depth than video games, especially more than relativitely open ones with a lot of choices involved. The more linear you storytelling and whole narrative arrangement is the more complexity and depth you usually can establish in a video game. It's incredibly hard to make lifelike, believable decision situations in games and follow their outcomes in the same complex and sophisticated fashion. You'd just need tons of resources and literally endless time to do so and the more you include the more you need and the higher the danger to make stuff more simple and less deep. That doesn't mean that I don't like to have no decisions and choices at all. I like games with choices or I wouldn't play RPGs. But I think there are some narrative elements so important to a franchise and story that you shouldn't mess them up with video-gamey decisions. I wholeheartedly admit that I might feel so here because I like the franchise so much and the characters populating it. And at the same time I know the many limitations of video game design and development and even creative limitations quite well. And that just doesn't encourage me to have high hopes that any of these important characters will be treated with the right care and depth, especially if certain deicions and choices are involved here. I basically just prefer having the integrated in a linear, predefined fashion, as sophisticated, complex and canon-like as possible while making a video game. Hope that makes sense.

 

[GuyNwah]

There's a very real problem that can't be dealt with simply by demanding "lifelike" development of relationships between characters. It's that you must develop relationships in a manner that is limited by the medium at hand.

Apart from "love at first sight" or the "thunderbolt" (which I believe is real but rare), it takes a long time to develop a romantic relationship with another person in real life. It can take months or years, even many years, and many interactions with the other person.

You can approximate real life in an epic novel, maybe. Say, Love in the Time of Cholera or Great Expectations. That's a medium that doesn't require any suspension of disbelief for action that occurs over a long time, even years. It works even in shorter literature, so long as the scope of the narrative runs to a substantial part of the characters' lives.

But this no longer works for acted-out drama. Maybe it does for epic television, though I'd sooner accept a soap opera like Dark Shadows than the likes of Game of Thrones as proof. But as soon as you have your audience's attention for just a limited time, you must telescope. Connections between characters that would take years to build in real life or more than one volume of a novel must (it's not optional, you must do it and you can't leave it out) be developed in an easily countable number of scenes.

This is true of movies, even ones that do it brilliantly like Shop Around the Corner or It Happened One Night. it's true of stage plays, it's true of musical theatre and opera. I contend that it's also true of computer games. The mere fact that a relationship is not developed in such detail in a computer game as a series of novels led you to believe it should is no fault of the game, no fault of the medium, no fault of the writers and animators. It is what it is in the medium they present their work for your enjoyment.

P.S. For the moment, I'm going to ignore anyone who raises the objection that "games are not an art form". I am willing to argue in another time and place that they are.

 

[Vigilance.492]

@Scholdarr
Yea it's a complicated topic, we might have both just misunderstood each other in a few places.

I do get where you're coming from in regards to a Linear story providing much more ability to create depth and look, I generally do agree. However ultimately everything still lies with the skill of the Writer/s.

We've seen CDPR take a crack at both, and frankly I think they've shown they have what it takes to pull it off no matter which way they go. The Witcher 1 has that choice between the 2 main romantic interests, but I felt pulled it off wonderfully. It didn't feel "gamey", you talked to the characters, built up a relationship and then ultimately made the decision of who you preferred, or more importantly who you trusted more to look after Alvin. Whereas The Witcher 2 played the more linear romance, with Triss. You still had choices along the way (Don't bother saving Triss. Turn her down at the Elven Baths) and those choices were left with the player, and ultimately that, along with a bit of your own extra brain power to fill in the gaps, led to how you felt about her (Friend? Casual Lover? Full on Romantic Interest?).
If there's a romantic choice in the game, and it just feels stupid and "gamey", I'm definitely with you that I'd rather just have a linear romantic story than have some horribly executed choice (See: BioWare). However I personally believe CDPR have earned a bit of faith in that department, I'm trusting them to pull it off, and every time the Blacha says anything on the topic of romance, it only strengthens that feeling in me that they do know what they're doing.

One thing we also have to remember, and even I have to remind myself, is that not everyone has read the books. The games can be played so that you don't ever have to pick up a Witcher novel and you'll be just fine. So when you look at the Series in its Video Game form, it's always offered that choice (Even if it's as simple as just not having sex with Triss in the Elven Baths), so to cut that out in the third installment would probably be a big deal for a lot of people. Again, it ultimately comes down to the choice itself, how and when it's implemented and the finesse of the Writers (Heck using "choice" might even be the wrong word here, perhaps it'll feel more like a series of events that culminate in you just naturally veering towards one Sorceress, guess we'll just have to wait and see).

I hope for your sake (And everybody's) it'll turn out well done, and be a pleasant surprise.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

I like the last two posts very much, thank you guys, it's a quite an interesting discusson. I don't have enough time to answer them with enough care right now but I'll probably do so at a later date.

 

[Vely]

Triss/Yen choice, solution

Please allow us to have both, at same time ofc! Please!

 

[GHOSTMD]

Please allow us to have both, at same time ofc! Please!

YES YES please both so we can see Geralt ending up as burned corpse after he suggest that
threesome !!!!

HEHEHHEHE

 

[BethesdaWare]

I will be shocked if we can't choose between them. The games are a new story. They aren't constrained by the books. We have known Triss in two games (for those of us who haven't read the novels). We don't know Yennefer at all. It should be up to the player to decide who Geralt will ultimately end up with. Even with Geralt's amnesia removed, he still has all of that history and experiences with Triss that just can't be washed away. Honestly though, this is CDPR. Triss has been a focus since the very first game, so I couldn't see them dropping the ball like this.

 

[Journey_95]

I will be shocked if we can't choose between them. The games are a new story. They aren't constrained by the books. We have known Triss in two games (for those of us who haven't read the novels). We don't know Yennefer at all. It should be up to the player to decide who Geralt will ultimately end up with. Even with Geralt's amnesia removed, he still has all of that history and experiences with Triss that just can't be washed away. Honestly though, this is CDPR. Triss has been a focus since the very first game, so I couldn't see them dropping the ball like this.

yep shocked and pissed at CDPR

 

[MichaelArdTirana]

My own perspective regarding this is that it well could be true that the main choice outlined for you is Yennefer.
Though there may, this time, be a side choice for Triss, etc. [I say that, hopeful, based on older information from Red.]

As we all know, Shani was a choice by many, who was, more or less, tossed aside in TW2.
For those people, Triss felt 'forced' upon them.
In a way, Triss from TW2 had attributes that felt like they were more akin to Shani than to the original Triss character.

Agree or disagree with Shani as a choice... that being the point, there was a choice that was essentially stripped from the player.
Imagine getting adjusted to a new character, and then in TW3 the same thing being 'pulled' - "As much as we tried to 'force' Triss on you, its actually Yennefer!"

Personally, if that were the case, it feels a bit too much, in a scenario where your actions are supposed to matter -

I do understand that the game is based on the book series, where Yennerfer is Geralts lover.
However, not many people are aware of this... and to be honest, who is to say that after amnesia and gaining his memory back that Geralt is not a changed man based on the actions that took place on his journey back, as it were.

Think about Arnold in "Total Recall" - it could be true that he was an agent who purposely had his mind wiped... at the end of the day, he chose not to go back - true or not.
And that is what it feels this game needs... a true alternative.

Im pretty sure Shani is gone... but i hope that they leave options open, none-the-less.

p.s.
I read in a thread someone mentioning the possibility of Ciri.
While most people would immediately say, "No!" - it must be considered that in certain Central/Eastern European countries, that cousins are married to each other. [Im referring to after the war... not present day.]

And Geralt is not even a blood relative - also many people will not have been properly introduced to the character of Ciri.

This is not an attempt to convince anyone of anything, again it is user choice, but it is merely trying to highlight some points that may have been overlooked.

After all, this is Geralt - and Ciri is a grown woman, that is not blood related...
.... based on TW1, I would almost find it hard to believe the option would not be available.

 

[KingHochmeister]

After all, this is Geralt - and Ciri is a grown woman, that is not blood related...
.... based on TW1, I would almost find it hard to believe the option would not be available.

She may not be blood related to him, but she is HIS daughter, no matter what.

 

[Ljesnjanin]

She may not be blood related to him, but she is HIS daughter, no matter what.

Plus, Geralt is...

Spoiler

80 years older