@Costin : Congratulations. It didn't take very long 
Until next time I guess since I doubt they'll learn anything from this.
Until next time I guess since I doubt they'll learn anything from this.
@Scholdarr : This is a beaten horse. Steam official backup tool doesn't work without service being active. Therefore all their games officially have DRM. Unofficially some of them can be manually backed up and restored ("installed") and run without the client and service. It doesn't change the fact of the default attitude and the fact that you can't have any way of knowing it from Steam itself before buying the game. If you are so opposed to DRM, it's surprising that you are using Steam altogether. If you really care about the issue vote with your wallet and don't use Steam.
Anyway, we have a thread here dedicated to DRM specifically: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/16563-What-does-DRM-achieve-and-does-piracy-equal-lost-sales
MOD: Moved to the suggested thread
Anyway, we have a thread here dedicated to DRM specifically: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/16563-What-does-DRM-achieve-and-does-piracy-equal-lost-sales
MOD: Moved to the suggested thread
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MOD: Moved from another thread.
And on a side note: "vote with your wallet " is really a beaten horse. It's just ineffective, especially for big productions. Only very few people care about stuff like DRM or even inform themselves about it. Once you market your game to the so called mainstream most people are just customers: people who buy your game because they want to play it. Nobody really cares if a few core gamers don't buy the game. They aren't even the (sole) target audience anymore...
Sorry, but that's not logical. If a game works without the Steam client running it is imo effectively DRM-free. I don't care about any "Steam official backup tool" because it's not necessary at all for anything.
So the "attitude" is now more important than simple facts (the ones you state yourself here)? The default attitude of Steam/Valve is to push the decision to the publisher. It's up to the publisher how they want to "protect" their game on Steam and also how they want to communicate that decision. Steam is basically just a selling platform that offeres a wide range of tools to freely choose from. If you really want to criticize a "bad attitude" blame the pubilshers of using them and/or being dishonest/intransparent about them in their catalogue...
That's true but not a big issue. If you want to go sure just ask the developer on Steam. I'm quite positive that most will answer you the question, at least or especially if the game is DRM free. Many of those who sell DRM-free games on Steam are quite transparent about that and mention that on the shop page. In the end (imho) it's also on the customer to inform himself on the product he wants to buy.
You got me all wrong. I'm not opposed to DRM in general, at least not if it doesn't diminish my gaming experience (always-online or performance issues for example). To me personally DRM like Steamworks CIg is more or less irrelevant. I just don't like being fooled. And I just don't like it when companies try to sell themselves as good people while they just want to promote themselves and their business. It's not about Steam. And actually not about DRM itself. It's about CDPR not being completely honest on the subject and trying to tell people that they didn't have any influence which DRM is used on Steam for their own products. That's just a misinformation and I'm quite sure you can't really disagree on that one...
And on a side note: "vote with your wallet " is really a beaten horse. It's just ineffective, especially for big productions. Only very few people care about stuff like DRM or even inform themselves about it. Once you market your game to the so called mainstream most people are just customers: people who buy your game because they want to play it. Nobody really cares if a few core gamers don't buy the game. They aren't even the (sole) target audience anymore...
So why do you write about it here??? It wasn't me who started this sub-part of the thread. I already mentioned in one of my post above that my initial point wasn't about DRM in general (or specificially on Steam). I just replied to other people (like here again)...
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@Scholdarr : So to summarize, you don't care about the issue of DRM and are OK with supporting a service which proliferates it. But for some reason you aren't OK with CDPR using Steamworks on Steam. First of all I don't know if they use it for DRM sake and not let's say for the sake of Steamworks network functionality (Arena scores or anything like that?).
And unlike many other developers who release such games on Steam only, CDPR don't require you to buy on Steam and provide a version without Steamworks (on GOG). That's what those who care about not proliferating DRM use. And if you don't vote with your wallet complaining about any of these issues looks rather pointless altogether.
And unlike many other developers who release such games on Steam only, CDPR don't require you to buy on Steam and provide a version without Steamworks (on GOG). That's what those who care about not proliferating DRM use. And if you don't vote with your wallet complaining about any of these issues looks rather pointless altogether.
Yes and no. First of all I'm not ok with them being dishonest. And second I'm not ok to pushing DRM like Steamworks CIG on a product while you want to profile yourself as the first crusader against DRM. Again, this isn't about DRM itself for me. It's about honesty and how CDPR acts.
Steamworks CIG isn't needed for ANY other Steam functionality. Divinity Original Sin uses a lot of Steamworks features including online and network stuff but no Steamworks CIG. Being so much against DRM you should actually know that...
Again, it's not about DRM in the first place. It's about the actions of DRM and how they act against their alleged anti-DRM on purpose just to increase sales on GOG. They artificially add something to the Steam version they personally hate. Isn't that strange and kind of dishonest? It's not about whether I'm able to buy a DRM-free version anywhere (like GOG). It's about a developer who says in every second interview how much they hate DRM and that it should vanish in general and who - at the same time - uses DRM in one of the versions they sell on purpose.
I mean it would be ok if they just honestly admit that they want to bolster sales on GOG by that and that DRM-freeness is just their niche there. That would be honest. But statements that tell people that they had no influence on whether the Steam version will DRM and that GOG is the only place where they could offer a DRM-free version are imho just dishonest and misleading.
It's true that we don't know whether Witcher 3 will use Steamworks CIG or any other DRM on Steam. But Witcher 2 does. And whether Witcher 3 will do so up to CDPR 100% according to the current Steam policies. If you don't believe me, ask somebody at Larian Studios for example. They can tell you some actual facts on the topic instead of some nebulous and misleading marketing statements. Oh, and they also sell DRM-free versions of Divinity Sin on their own website and on GOG. But other than CDPR they don't make a big deal out of it. They are just DRM-free because they think it's the right way to do so. On every possible platform. So I rather compare a developer with such high alleged standards like CDPR with a similar developer/publisher like Larian than let's say EA or Ubisoft, if at all.
Steamworks CIG isn't needed for ANY other Steam functionality. Divinity Original Sin uses a lot of Steamworks features including online and network stuff but no Steamworks CIG. Being so much against DRM you should actually know that...
I wouldn't know that since I don't use Steam at all
If you are saying that CDPR are using some DRM on Steam, then it's a question why and I hear it. But for me it's rather moot since I'd expect those who care about this not to use Steam to begin with.You are saying that CDPR are using DRM-free pitch as marketing tool more than an actual position on things? May be, hard to say. For example GOG / CDPR didn't participate in the last day against DRM. Most of the arguments that I saw in the interviews are also of a pragmatic nature like "DRM is pointless and reduces usability" than focusing on unethical nature of it.
Also, don't forget that CDPR have various contracts with retail distributors which in return put restrictions even on digital distribution for CDPR. In the past they were even sued by Bandai Namco for releasing Witcher 2 on GOG DRM-free. May be some of them also include provision to use DRM on Steam? CDPR managed to repeal that claim about GOG, but may be didn't do it for Steam or etc. We don't really have enough details on this. If you ask why did they even sign such contracts to use any of that DRM junk anywhere - I have no clue.
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You need some sort of protection on pc, the Witcher 2 was pirated an estimated 4.5 million times, which does not bode well for the legitimate pc sales (which were around 1 million).
You have to be a dolt not to put in some sort of protection and rely on the "good will" of gamers, the active internet community is an incredibly small vocal minority in comparison to the average customer that actually buys the damn thing, and you can be damn sure as hell i'd probably pirate the Witcher 2 if i could (that is, be technologically savvy enough and have a decent computer).
That's why although pc gaming is not by any means dying (quite the contrary), piracy rates keep getting higher, this is why console sales typically tend to outsell pc sales, despite the pc actually having a larger or equal userbase to the next gen consoles combined.
Piracy is the big culprit at large here, more than anything really (that's not to say it's the sole responsible factor though...).
Edit: I actually found something that seems fairly unbiased and that also seems to be fairly indepth :http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html
You have to be a dolt not to put in some sort of protection and rely on the "good will" of gamers, the active internet community is an incredibly small vocal minority in comparison to the average customer that actually buys the damn thing, and you can be damn sure as hell i'd probably pirate the Witcher 2 if i could (that is, be technologically savvy enough and have a decent computer).
That's why although pc gaming is not by any means dying (quite the contrary), piracy rates keep getting higher, this is why console sales typically tend to outsell pc sales, despite the pc actually having a larger or equal userbase to the next gen consoles combined.
Piracy is the big culprit at large here, more than anything really (that's not to say it's the sole responsible factor though...).
Edit: I actually found something that seems fairly unbiased and that also seems to be fairly indepth :http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html
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@DaVinci3 : No. No sort of "protection" can prevent piracy without degrading the quality for those who pay for it. So you have to ask yourself - what is more important, delivering a good product for those who pay or degrading it with DRM which doesn't stop pirates (since it's broken anyway and they never deal with it afterwards) but punishes your loyal customers? Once you figure that one out, you won't be ever using any of this DRM idiocy. To put it in your terms, one has to be dolt to punish one's loyal customers for buying one's game.
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So what should they do? Bend over backwards for a small vocal minority that dislikes DRM like practices and accept mass pirating (The Witcher 2 having close to a 80% piracy rate for starters which must feel FANTASTIC for the devs who worked hard on it), OR implement as less intrusive as possible measures to prevent such things from happening with such intensity?
Now you might say "Well i'm sure not all of those pirates were gonna buy the game in the first place, so it's not really a lost sale!"", perhaps, but i'm willing to bet a good number of them WERE going to buy it if torrents at the time of release weren't as prevalent as they were.
Edit: The line "No sort of "protection" can prevent piracy without degrading the quality for those who pay for it." is legitimately one of the dumbest things i've ever read, are you that sure of your logic that you can say things like that?
Now you might say "Well i'm sure not all of those pirates were gonna buy the game in the first place, so it's not really a lost sale!"", perhaps, but i'm willing to bet a good number of them WERE going to buy it if torrents at the time of release weren't as prevalent as they were.
Edit: The line "No sort of "protection" can prevent piracy without degrading the quality for those who pay for it." is legitimately one of the dumbest things i've ever read, are you that sure of your logic that you can say things like that?
DRM is not an acceptable practice. It's unethical overreaching preemptive policing using the methods of abusive police state to "prevent" piracy. Mind you, it doesn't even prevent anything. As was discussed quite at length in this thread DRM is not about piracy at all. It's about other reasons none of which are any good if you analyze them in detail.
I can summarize those reasons for you if you aren't up to reading this long thread.
1. Ignorance and stupidity. Some execs actually think that DRM helps them to prevent piracy and increase sales. Such are called DRM Lysenkoists. Studies demonstrate that DRM doesn't even increase sales - it actually decreases them.
2. Covering one's incompetence. Poor sales because of bad product are blamed on pirates and DRM is used as a sign that they are "doing something about it". Such execs care more about not being fired. They don't care if they produce a crippled product to ensure the former.
3. All kind of control, from technology direction and standards poisoning to preventing users from switching mobile network carriers. This one is one of the nastiest reasons, and usually coupled with corrupted laws like DMCA-1201 and other similar anticircumvention provisions laws around the world.
All three reasons range from stupid to completely crooked and none are valid to ever use DRM. If you need more clear explanation why DRM is unethical, please comment or read the thread - there are many details covered already.
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Interview with CDPR CEO from last year.
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/witcher-3-dev-the-game-will-be-pirated/1100-6415914/
The main problem continues to be trying to convince executives (and some gamers apparently) that piracy is unavoidable and DRM doesn't prevent it. Socially we seem to be forced into thinking some measure must be taken or we'll just look like idiots with our thumb up our asses. But the truth is there is no measure, period. So why bother and harass the legitimate customer? In most cases, because they can get away with it and control and information are valuable.
There isn't much more to discuss. This is going in circles. Like trying to explain why government surveillance sustained on fighting a nonexistent enemy is also not OK.
There isn't much more to discuss. This is going in circles. Like trying to explain why government surveillance sustained on fighting a nonexistent enemy is also not OK.
@Gilrond - did you see this?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...5-Denuvo-s-Success-Proves-the-Futility-of-DRM
Nicely written, states the argument well.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...5-Denuvo-s-Success-Proves-the-Futility-of-DRM
Nicely written, states the argument well.
@Dragonbird : Good article but it doesn't analyze more sinister reasons. It's mostly talking about #1 in my list above.
At some point one starts wondering how supposedly business oriented executives can be so stubbornly stupid? I suspect that actually #2 and #3 are more common reasons than #1, but there is no easy way to measure this.
At some point one starts wondering how supposedly business oriented executives can be so stubbornly stupid? I suspect that actually #2 and #3 are more common reasons than #1, but there is no easy way to measure this.
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Another form of insanity. DRM in cat litter boxes... Who would have imagined?
https://medium.com/@jorge_lo/the-future-a-cat-litter-and-drm-6dbda26428f8
And of course some already break it and release custom firmware for them %)
https://medium.com/@jorge_lo/the-future-a-cat-litter-and-drm-6dbda26428f8
And of course some already break it and release custom firmware for them %)
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A great comic by Michael Goodwin about TPP and so called "free trade" agreements. Worth reading through the whole thing even though it's long:
http://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/
http://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/
Question about DRM
Hello,
I was wondering about the performance increase concerning DRM free games...
I mean,in a game using DRM vs the same game not using it,what could you expect about the performance impact?
Hello,
I was wondering about the performance increase concerning DRM free games...
I mean,in a game using DRM vs the same game not using it,what could you expect about the performance impact?
I would tend to expect a game without DRM to have better performance than the same game with DRM. How much difference would depend on the game and the kind of DRM used - it could be anything from trivial to significant to game-stopping.
On games that only do a DRM check at the beginning, like most Steam games played offline, the impact would only be at the initial load, not on-going during the game. If the DRM software is Doing Stuff all of the time you're playing, then I'd expect the impact to be a lot more significant.
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Well Dragonbird,
since most of the players aren t cut of STEAM from its online connection, STEAM IS doing stuff in the background all the time.
Unfortunatly most of the gamers wont even bother, putting STEAM complete offline and check the system if it is really offline.
Also no Social Crap then, if this "service" is offline, no autopatching, no achievements, no controlling of game time,
no checks of hardware... and so on. Must be really hard to put some effort in maintaining your PC by yourself...
and your games
Tzk... :/
Anyway... like you said DRM always have an impact on the game and its performance, depending on the fact how much
the DRM is conna control and check your system. It also depends on how performable your system and internet
connection is.
So really hard to say...
since most of the players aren t cut of STEAM from its online connection, STEAM IS doing stuff in the background all the time.
Unfortunatly most of the gamers wont even bother, putting STEAM complete offline and check the system if it is really offline.
Also no Social Crap then, if this "service" is offline, no autopatching, no achievements, no controlling of game time,
no checks of hardware... and so on. Must be really hard to put some effort in maintaining your PC by yourself...
and your games
Tzk... :/
Anyway... like you said DRM always have an impact on the game and its performance, depending on the fact how much
the DRM is conna control and check your system. It also depends on how performable your system and internet
connection is.
So really hard to say...