Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

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Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun


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It's not even about quality of writing, a thousand well written sidequests do get tedious and boring if that's the lions share of what the game has to offer and none of those play into anything around them.

I'm not really talking about Skyrim,FO3, FNV or Oblivion. I do agree that the sidequests were rather uninspiring, and that's why I refer back to Morrowind which was released 12 years ago.

Pray tell: what is a fetch quest anyway? I saw you reference it several time but it's so ill-defined it's hard to counter. All quests if you think about it are either kill quests or fetch quests.

Morrowind kept it at a manageable and most sidequests actually serve the purpose to explore the setting.

For example, Curios Vario, Legion Champion sends you to kill Cammona tong thugs at the Council Club. It's essentially a kill quest but that is very solid writing. It's a way of showing vs. telling even though it's completely unrelated to the main story. It established the kind of world you were dealing with early on
without the long paragraphs extolling lore which WRPG are now famous for.

Furthermore,they did not have this quality of I haz 2 get betta g3ar that you speak of because rewards were often very disproportionate to risks. Furthermore, there were no markers for you to follow, GPS style. If anything, questing was one of the worse way to get loot. With few exceptions, it was much better usually to seek out and clear Daedric shrines or kill Templars by yourself rather then go on as you call "fetch quest".

Oh, I definitely agree with that. But then again, the way I see it, it at a certain point comes back down to the volume, reactivity and interconnectivity. There is a central push for the character in the storyline, however strong or loose; that should remain at the center.

I don't understand this. The animations (among other similiar things.... such as lipsync and voice acting perhaps?) made the quests bad? What's the connection there? Those things have nothing to do with quest design.

What do you mean it has nothing to do with quest designs? Narrative is an inherent part of quest design. It's what makes the quest interesting in the first place.
Have you never noticed how robotic the characters act when you're talking to them in FO3 or Skyrim (albeit there's a big deal of that --- Cough cough commander shepard)? It is completely unnatural and most of all, boring. So no it's not even the voice acting and lypsinc. My guess is that it's really the awkward static body language.

In order to do the quest, you have to care a minimum about the characters involved.

The reason you hold your POV is this: WRPGs' default way of telling stories is essentially loredump and that's a terrible way of telling a story.

"The X faction is fighting the Y faction. Y Faction is evil because I'm telling you so and you better believe it because roleplaying you know!"

If it's done like in Skyrim, FO3, WoW, Diablo, etc ,of course it's going to be tedious. It's just that you are underestimating the effect of art and espescially writing and acting in games.

Some games do get it hamfisted about that, but most often it is disregarded completely, or implemented in a way that only gives an illusion of something to have actually happened -- or in a silly choose-your-color/button-at-the-very-end way. C&C and reactivity should be implemented where they are called for in the design and narrative, and in a magnitude that is called for without being afraid that the player might not like the outcome. Some things have larger more far reaching consequences than others, and the others have more subtle way of affecting things ahead.

It's not even this. It's the fact that a choice (esp. in dialogue) really puts the spotlight on actions. As soon as the director uses C&C, it takes away all subtility from a scene.

The thing is with C&C you can usually take an education guess as to what's going to happen with the second option, having first picked #1

Obsidians merits and mishaps aside (that's another topic), bad implementation is never something to strive for. However, regardless of the possibly lacking implementation of the previous handler, if the idea bears promise, if it is actually a good idea, it is worth looking into if the crux thereof supports or even complents your design goal and ideals.

no one successfully pulled it off in games or in fiction. Or at least never on par with more established ways of telling a story.

It is much better to have unified narrative and work on that.

There is room for C&C of sorts but more in the "how" rather then the "why". the gameplay and in the sequencing of events rather then the narrative itself.

If video games wants to grow as a medium, it will have to give more weight to aspects other then glorified CYOA. espescially. musical score (which sadly is very weak in Western games) and acting/animation. There's a reason why CYOA books suck. Can you imagine for example Robert Heinlein writing Starship troopers or Strangers in a strange land as a CYOA book? How about Blade Runner?

Good. Let's say (to be generous) the first quarter of the game is generic and is the same to all players and then comes your first choice. Now imagine how many story arcs you want to have. Let's take a movie with great AAA quality cutscenes, FFXIII, which has 6 hours of cutscenes. The first 1.5 is generic, so now that leaves us with 4.5 hours. Now divide the remaining playing time by the # of story arcs you want. Get the picture?

And as you add in variables (player's height, player's weight, etc) it gets exponentially worse.

Alpha Protocol highlights this problem very well. The novelty is already gone so by the time you go through your second playthrough, you get an impression of deja vu(which is a polite euphemism for boredom). Character development for most characters was extremely poor during the first playthrough.

CYOA works to an extent in games, because for most parts, they are visceral experience but it becomes old fast. There is a balance of course, but in times, smart writers will recognize this and will find way to tell clever stories and not so overt about it by abusing C&C.

A lot of character and plot development is best made by not saying anything and simply letting the player come to his own conclusions.
 
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I know most people like having a ton of buttons to press.

err, let me rephrase that, I know that a lot of people complain when there are not many buttons to press!

Personally, I don't think that things like complexity and skill level are necessarily dependent on the amount of buttons, in the very old school arcade game shooters, there were 3 or 4 buttons at most, however, player skill was very important and only someone with experience could beat them on hard level.

It's the same in pvp, being a skilled pvp player doesn't necessarily mean knowing how to micro a million buttons. It can, it does sometimes, but it doesn't necessarily mean that, there are other things to take into account. (positionning, timing etc).

I would really love a game which gave room for player skill to develop without basing it all on the 8 bars of quick slots that modern gamers could micro with their 200 Euro mouse that has 25 buttons + G15 keyboard, macros etc.

To me, that doesn't mean skill..

As to other aspects of the game (other than combat) complexity is often what makes a game a long game, because you need time to learn, study, apply etc. That, to me, is a good thing.
 
I have to agree, running a bunch of macros or spamming buttons every time they recycle is NOT "skill", it's merely mechanics.
While I personally don't want a reflex based system (press button NOW or die - or you have 1/4 second to locate a specific pixel and get a cursor on it to hit) timing and tactics should matter to an extent. Example: There's a guard, you can just come around a corner and blaze away relying on your reflexes and aim as a player OR you can wait 45 seconds and his cell phone will ring and while he's distracted talking to his girlfriend and you can sneak by or put an aimed shot between his eyes.
 
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Back stabbing, stealth, team work, longe-range, short-range, bare hands, bluffing, taking hostages, intimidation, agility, hacking, various equipment, various fighting styles, blinding, lethal, non-lethal..etc

I LOVE diversity. I love tactical yet fast-paced gameplay. But here's a very important thing: Don't give extra rewards (ex: xp) for choosing certain tactics of fighting. I remember many games where I wanted to grenade 3 soldiers or brawl with an enemy but didn't because being stealthy would earn me more XP.

Give us diversity, and give us freedom. And give us a unique & mature game.

Thank you :)
 
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Combat: first-person perspective with the ability to zoom out to 3rd if you want.
- I want the combat mechanics to feel meaty (real gritty and palpable), plunging a knife into the back of a rival drug dealer, or the slap of a bullet ripping into flesh.
- Real locational damage. Rushing into a fight with your katana unsheathed, cybernetic reflex implants humming at full power so enemies seem slower (bullet time) and chopping off not just the usual arm or leg but real precise like hands, feet, slicing them diagonally. (skyrims mod was a good one with 12 zones, but I'm sure you guys can pull off something much more impressive). This could make firefights or sniping with guns much more fun.
- Intuitive duck and cover mechanics implemented. not just pressing crouch.
- Destructible/manipulable environs.
- Parkour-ish/fluid movement, actions.
- Highly customizable character/useful crafting system: looks, wardrobe, implants, genetic augments, weapons, etc...
- Moddable for pc's ("the streets finds its own uses...")
- co-op play available, like planning a heist with friends on a corporate megabuilding. Different ways to pull off. you can all just run in and gun em down. or take a more tactical approach. having a high level hacker take out security systems, another on a rooftop providing sniper cover. could be interesting.
- Hacking that's both useful and doesn't get dismally annoying after the first few ttimes. Shadown run's was decent, although it was just pretty much the regular game in neon. But a more classic RPG/turn based system could be implemented.
- Vehicles.
- As much freedom as currently is possible. You wanna be a drug/organ runner? sounds fun. Super hacker for hire? sure. Wastrel drug-addict mugger? why not. Crooked cop? sounds fun. And all these things will effect your rep in different ways.
- As open as the game can be, I want the storyline to be just as good.
- Also the game doesn't end after you beat the game. You can just continue to play/live in the world. Like one poster in another thread mentioned, cyberpunk is cyclical. Either you end up dead or right back at where you started.The main story is just that, just another story in the life of a cyber punk.
- Real estate: pad, crib, fortress of solitude. Whatever you wanna call it, I want one. A base of operations I can build upon.
- I don't want it to feel too serious. Yea cyberpunk is gritty, but it's also a product of the 80's "substance over style" glam-rock mentality. And I'd like to see some of that over-the-top, outlandish aesthetic and humor.
- Good Line of Sight, and "smart" AI mechanics.
 
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Back stabbing, stealth, team work, longe-range, short-range, bare hands, bluffing, taking hostages, intimidation, agility, hacking, various equipment, various fighting styles, blinding, lethal, non-lethal..etc

I LOVE diversity. I love tactical yet fast-paced gameplay. But here's a very important thing: Don't give extra rewards (ex: xp) for choosing certain tactics of fighting. I remember many games where I wanted to grenade 3 soldiers or brawl with an enemy but didn't because being stealthy would earn me more XP.

Give us diversity, and give us freedom. And give us a unique & mature game.

Thank you :)

Yeah. seriously. DX 3 had this problem.

I did end up knocking out people anyway because the gunplay part was too easy.
 
Yeah. seriously. DX 3 had this problem.

I did end up knocking out people anyway because the gunplay part was too easy.

To me the problem with the takedowns was mostly that there was no added cost to using the non-lethal way. In DE1 they solved this having stun-damage weapons have their own separate ammo that they could make more scarce or whatever, but in DEHR you spent the same amount of energy no matter if you did the lethal or non-lethal takedown, and enemies couldn't even recover or wake up from the non-lethal one so, why go lethal? There are no other reasons that pure style.
 
but in DEHR you spent the same amount of energy no matter if you did the lethal or non-lethal takedown, and enemies couldn't even recover or wake up from the non-lethal one so, why go lethal? There are no other reasons that pure style.

Well, depending on your skill and hte diff. setting, takedowns were a LOT more dangerous! If I screwed up I was much more likely to die as opposed ot shooting my way through the area.

Also, pure style really is a good reason to do it. You shouldn't need rewards.

I do agree that the extra XP induced me to do more takedowns than I would have otherwise. So..probably what the devs wanted?
 
Yeah takedowns were a lot more fun in DX3 then guns. And you could really die fast on Gimme dx so you had to time it.

But its true that they really encouraged the non-lethal takedown.

rather paradoxically, you ahd to hold the kill button .5 seconds longer for a lethal takedown. Can make a big difference in a firefight where you ahve to close in the distance!

Enemies could also recover, if they happened to have a buddy reanimate them while in the original DX, unconscious was as good as dead. That was a small bonus, but for me wasn't a good enough trade off for the .5 second difference.

EDIT: Oh yeah and dev. It sounds stupid but don't do like they did in DX3 and have the enemies shoot at the same intervals. you can time them too easily.
 
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EDIT: Oh yeah and dev. It sounds stupid but don't do like they did in DX3 and have the enemies shoot at the same intervals. you can time them too easily.


Ooh, this is so true. And, at least as importantly to those of us who care as much about immersion as gameplay, it made them seem very mechanical and lifeless.

Mix it up a bit. Or, even, a lot.
 
I want it to be as tactical as DAO or tactical shooters, when even on easiest you have to think. But sometimes you need to say fuck it, fuckin' kill everyone so hard that it'll sterilize their great-great-grandparents.
 
Hmm.. RealTime is a must.. there are so great mechanisms that are already available in others games that change a cheap shooter in something much deeper. For me the most important do's and don'ts would be:


+ + + Different playstyles possible, best examples are From Software's Souls games: dual wielding katanas, dagger and club, onehanded claymore and shield, even stupid ideas like two shields work.. feel free... ...if you're good enough. But also System Shock 2 and E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy did a great job.

+ + + Your actions and your own skill should defines a major part of your success, no dice rolls or game-changing equipment values.

- - - No semi or fully automatic super-cool fighting animations for which (as a worst case) you only pushed a single button for.
I really hate Assassin's Creed so I can't stand one-click-be-cool animations. Furthermore, one of the two most annoying things for me in DE:HR was the takedown mechanism. This crap produced so many unintentionally comical situations, somewhat ruined the whole atmosphere. :/

- - - No fight-interrupting with super-slomotions or even worse, pausing and organizing fight stuff. If I play a turn-based game, I have much time to think and plan.. it's great! If I play something in real time, I'm doing this because the pressure of time is one important aspect of the challenge. So why on earth should I be able to interrupt the fight, freeze the enemies and dangers and do things that should normally consume time?
 
I completely agree with your positives, though I think I'm a bit more tolerant to the negatives that you listed. It obviously depends on the extent and the execution of those features, but generally I'm inclined to agree with you.

The other day I was thinking about the "weapon/item/equipment repair" feature in video games and I just couldn't think of an example that pulled it off successfully (i.e., not feeling like a chore but an extra layer of depth for gameplay and immersion). Is there anything like this in the PnP version of Cyberpunk, and does anyone think it can be executed successfully in a video game?
 
Is there anything like this in the PnP version of Cyberpunk, and does anyone think it can be executed successfully in a video game?


Weapons jam, malfunction and break. You need a skill check to get them working, or possibly parts and a skill checks. That applies to, well, everything. There isn't a special rule for a broken weapon as opposed to a broken cyberdeck, other than skill used and target number/resources to repair.

To modify a weapon takes another skill. Again, stat+skill+gear+D10 roll vs a Target Number ranging from Easy to Nearly Impossible.

In terms of including it in Cyberpunk 2077, when you get a weapon jam or bike tire blowout that you want to fix, your character chooses to repair it and the game checks your skill and stat and you fix it. Or not.

To temporarily fix or modify beyond the normal bounds of operation in the PnP requires the Jury Rig skill, and for a number of minutes, a talented Techie can repair a ducted fan from an AV4 with baling wire and gum.

Or modify your smartgun to fire flaming pungee sticks. Whatever.

In terms of including Jury Rig in-game, they will have to change it or water it down a lot. It's pretty crazy powerful in the PnP and requires Ref attention.
 
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+ + + Your actions and your own skill should defines a major part of your success ...

If combat is handled this way the game is no longer strictly speaking an RPG, where character attributes/skills determine success/failure but an FPS where player attributes/skills do.
 
It also goes for any other activity that is governed by the character. If the character that the player builds and progresses hasn't enough weight in the gameplay, it's more of an action adventure.
 
Weapons jam, malfunction and break. You need a skill check to get them working, or possibly parts and a skill checks. That applies to, well, everything. There isn't a special rule for a broken weapon as opposed to a broken cyberdeck, other than skill used and target number/resources to repair.

To modify a weapon takes another skill. Again, stat+skill+gear+D10 roll vs a Target Number ranging from Easy to Nearly Impossible.

In terms of including it in Cyberpunk 2077, when you get a weapon jam or bike tire blowout that you want to fix, your character chooses to repair it and the game checks your skill and stat and you fix it. Or not.

To temporarily fix or modify beyond the normal bounds of operation in the PnP requires the Jury Rig skill, and for a number of minutes, a talented Techie can repair a ducted fan from an AV4 with baling wire and gum.

Or modify your smartgun to fire flaming pungee sticks. Whatever.

In terms of including Jury Rig in-game, they will have to change it or water it down a lot. It's pretty crazy powerful in the PnP and requires Ref attention.

Sounds like it might be doable, then. How does breakage get determined in the PnP version? Is there some measure of the item's quality or do players have to roll a dice to see if something breaks? Or both?

I also saw somewhere that an item repair feature will be in The Witcher 3, so unless that crashes and burns, I expect they'll try to include it in CP2077.

If combat is handled this way the game is no longer strictly speaking an RPG, where character attributes/skills determine success/failure but an FPS where player attributes/skills do.

I disagree. There's obviously no clear distinction between what features make or break a true RPG, given the various threads discussing that very matter (on here and other forums) and the numerous titles claiming to be RPGs. Games don't generally fall into a single category either.

Character attributes, skills, stats, and gear/weapons, etc. very clearly shape how the player uses that character. A player built like a mage will not fight like a berserker, and vice versa. That is as much a part of role playing as the "number game" that used to determine how every scenario would play out.
 
Sounds like it might be doable, then. How does breakage get determined in the PnP version? Is there some measure of the item's quality or do players have to roll a dice to see if something breaks? Or both?

Items break on critical fumbles or when shot up, set fire to, run over, when the Ref thinks it's funny, etc. All the reasons they do in the Real World.
 
Depend if you play Rolemaster or Amber diceless.

I love Amber as much as I loath Rolemaster both as a player and as a GM.

But the whole point is how much simulationist you are. You may even create a table with some events likely to happen as your character gets out of his home (hum, you rolled 100, and the result is : an iced load of sh*t falling from a liner just crashes 1D6 feet away from you. Let's roll damages from the splinters....) .
 
If combat is handled this way the game is no longer strictly speaking an RPG, where character attributes/skills determine success/failure but an FPS where player attributes/skills do.
Hmmm.. it's still an rpg.. but in times where you are able to perform actions directly for your character (that's what computer games are really good at), why don't use it?
Hum... wile thinking about it, even in classic pen & paper rpgs, we already handed some of the character's stats directly to the player for more interaction. E.g. we _never_ rolled for intelligence to solve a riddle or get an idea. :)

@weapon repairs: Would be a nice idea if it delivers any enrichment to the game or perhaps grants some kind of balancing. The weaker but more reliable gun vs. the cheap, overly-massive caliber may-explode-in-your-hand- gun. :D
Sadly, I've seen way too many games that featured weapon or equipment decay and did nothing but annoy you with an additional but needless task. Remember Far Cry 2's malaria pills? *g*
 
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