Witcher senses and your opinion, possible down(up)grade of them

[schinderhannes.999]

Regarding the 'shaking' and what the medallion might or might not indicate:

I don't think the medallion will be shaking but, for example, it will indicate (it's still being worked on so I don't want to give you guys any details regarding the visuals) where to use Witcher senses.

---------- Updated at 03:04 PM ----------

Also with the game supposedly feature-complete and having everything locked down I'd rather see some official word on the hand holding issue and if there are ways to decouple the minimap and its various indicators and markers so that there's actually a point to use the Witcher Senses and maintain a healthy degree of investigative challenge.

 

[Vigilance.492]

So I was going to post the following in the Interviews and Articles thread, but since we really should be trying to keep that more clean than we do, I figured I'd revive this thread just in-case anyone wanted to continue the discussion about Witcher Senses - or just drop a renewed (or fresh) thought off to start a discussion.

Their quest design skills are above most other devs imo, it'd be a shame to undermine that with a gimmick.

Agreed. I'm just imagining tons of quests in the game being like a Cedric "Follow the Blood" type quest, and honestly that would be horrific design. When you follow the blood to find Cedric that was unique because you'd never really used the Medallion (Or Cat) in that way before, and it's literally the only time in the game where the Medallion is tied so heavily to a quest.

Like take the Succubus Quest for example. You bought your tools, headed down to the catacombs, uncovered lots of bodies until you found your man, and then logically followed dialogue options until you discovered your information. However in TW3 that same quest would probably require you just finding the body (Which the Senses would probably highlight the correct one anyway), then using Witcher Senses a few times on/near it and from that you'd find everything you need to know.
Really when you look at it, there's not some crazy, huge difference between the 2 quests, in both you're just pressing enter a few times until Geralt babbles enough information to solve mystery - however the big problem stems from the fact that if you've just had to use Witcher Senses in a similar fashion for your last 10 Quests, then it's going to be the same process and it's boring as fuck.

I've been hoping, and praying that Witcher Senses has some actual variety, and they haven't just used it as a crutch to design quests around, but after watching all the Gameplay footage and hearing how involved it was in all the journalists quests, I'm pretty worried. The improvement in quest design in TW2 was one aspect of the game I thought really helped elevate it to a grand status among RPG's, I'd just never seen quests so varied, so interesting and well designed, and I'd hate to see CDPR throw that all away just because they couldn't help but introduce this lame ass Batman Vision.

But I digress, the wait for more footage (Or I guess just the game) continues, and I'm really hoping we might be lucky enough to see some gameplay footage where the Senses aren't required, or they are actually used in a new and interesting way we haven't seen/heard before.

 

[gaw00]

But I digress, the wait for more footage (Or I guess just the game) continues, and I'm really hoping we might be lucky enough to see some gameplay footage where the Senses aren't required, or they are actually used in a new and interesting way we haven't seen/heard before.

+1 on this one.

I'm also hoping that we can solve everything without using witcher senses, by simple looking for clues. Or that they will be somehow limited on harder difficulties, not as obvious as they were in gameplay footage.

 

[thislsmadness]

So I was going to post the following in the Interviews and Articles thread, but since we really should be trying to keep that more clean than we do, I figured I'd revive this thread just in-case anyone wanted to continue the discussion about Witcher Senses - or just drop a renewed (or fresh) thought off to start a discussion.



Agreed. I'm just imagining tons of quests in the game being like a Cedric "Follow the Blood" type quest, and honestly that would be horrific design. When you follow the blood to find Cedric that was unique because you'd never really used the Medallion (Or Cat) in that way before, and it's literally the only time in the game where the Medallion is tied so heavily to a quest.

Like take the Succubus Quest for example. You bought your tools, headed down to the catacombs, uncovered lots of bodies until you found your man, and then logically followed dialogue options until you discovered your information. However in TW3 that same quest would probably require you just finding the body (Which the Senses would probably highlight the correct one anyway), then using Witcher Senses a few times on/near it and from that you'd find everything you need to know.
Really when you look at it, there's not some crazy, huge difference between the 2 quests, in both you're just pressing enter a few times until Geralt babbles enough information to solve mystery - however the big problem stems from the fact that if you've just had to use Witcher Senses in a similar fashion for your last 10 Quests, then it's going to be the same process and it's boring as fuck.

I've been hoping, and praying that Witcher Senses has some actual variety, and they haven't just used it as a crutch to design quests around, but after watching all the Gameplay footage and hearing how involved it was in all the journalists quests, I'm pretty worried. The improvement in quest design in TW2 was one aspect of the game I thought really helped elevate it to a grand status among RPG's, I'd just never seen quests so varied, so interesting and well designed, and I'd hate to see CDPR throw that all away just because they couldn't help but introduce this lame ass Batman Vision.

But I digress, the wait for more footage (Or I guess just the game) continues, and I'm really hoping we might be lucky enough to see some gameplay footage where the Senses aren't required, or they are actually used in a new and interesting way we haven't seen/heard before.

I do agree with you. I suppose the one glimmer of hope I have is that by turning off the Quest Markers the Witcher senses become a lot more interesting because the game is not just "go to this X on the map>use Witcher senses". Without the quest markers you'd have to investigate and pay close attention to quest details to even find the initial location. Which, in a game as vast as this is suppose to be would not be an easy task.

For instance, in the PAX video Geralt gets a quest to find the missing townspeople. After he gets the quest he gets marker showing him exactly where he needs to go. There is no need to pay attention to anything the NPC said since you get a marker on the map telling you exactly where to go to use your Witcher senses. If the marker isnt there then he suddenly has to pay attention when the NPC says that they were traveling to the north along the main road. The Witcher senses themselves have no improved in function but the quest as a whole is much more interesting since it relies on me using some cognitive processes, rather than just go here>do this.

 

[arkhenon]

If the Witcher senses become really boring and straightforward after a while, I'm planning on using them as in-game "hints". I'm planning to try to solve everything without them, and then if I can't for a while, use the Witcher senses as a last resort. Of course this will be the case if what we fear will come true about them.

 

[Vigilance.492]

I do agree with you. I suppose the one glimmer of hope I have is that by turning off the Quest Markers the Witcher senses become a lot more interesting because the game is not just "go to this X on the map>use Witcher senses". Without the quest markers you'd have to investigate and pay close attention to quest details to even find the initial location. Which, in a game as vast as this is suppose to be would not be an easy task.

I completely agree, and you were actually the one that schooled me about this when I was being really harsh on this aspect of the PAX Footage.

However that said, even disabling quest markers and directional arrows doesn't stop the Senses from becoming a dead boring mechanic and being used as a crutch for quest design.
I pretty much never opened my map or used directional arrows in TW2. Quests gave you enough information that you could (most of the time) find your own way and do your own thing. So that, in combination with the quests being well designed and not using any silly gimmicks (Like a Batman Vision) led to them being very interesting and having LOTS of variety.

Whereas in the PAX Gameplay for example, sure you can turn off directional arrows and that makes finding the caravan a little more interesting, but then after that you're on-rails with the Senses. Now that alone isn't enough to cause a huge concern, because a couple of quests here and there being like that, it's not really a big deal.
After watching the footage we have, and hearing journalists describe how the Senses worked in the quests they did, it seems like the Senses is being used in the same way every time. If the game doesn't implement that variety, and a vast majority of the quests just have that point where the Senses puts you on-rails for the rest of the quest (Or you miss out on interesting dialogue, or a quest is actually impossible because you refuse to use Senses), then that's going to get really boring, really quick. Seeing journalists state how they were already getting very bored of it after just a few hours has me very, very worried, and I fear CDPR going backwards in quest design simply because they wanted to have a stupid 'Vision', and well, I think we could all guess the reason for its implementation but it is still in truth "speculation".

Variety is what you need and TW2 had it in abundance, which is what really strengthened its design. I just really hope that since we're only seeing little snippets of the game, we're not seeing the full picture and that variety does still exist, but I'm extremely worried considering the information we do have.

 

[thislsmadness]

I completely agree, and you were actually the one that schooled me about this when I was being really harsh on this aspect of the PAX Footage.

However that said, even disabling quest markers and directional arrows doesn't stop the Senses from becoming a dead boring mechanic and being used as a crutch for quest design.
I pretty much never opened my map or used directional arrows in TW2. Quests gave you enough information that you could (most of the time) find your own way and do your own thing. So that, in combination with the quests being well designed and not using any silly gimmicks (Like a Batman Vision) led to them being very interesting and having LOTS of variety.

Whereas in the PAX Gameplay for example, sure you can turn off directional arrows and that makes finding the caravan a little more interesting, but then after that you're on-rails with the Senses. Now that alone isn't enough to cause a huge concern, because a couple of quests here and there being like that, it's not really a big deal.
After watching the footage we have, and hearing journalists describe how the Senses worked in the quests they did, it seems like the Senses is being used in the same way every time. If the game doesn't implement that variety, and a vast majority of the quests just have that point where the Senses puts you on-rails for the rest of the quest (Or you miss out on interesting dialogue, or a quest is actually impossible because you refuse to use Senses), then that's going to get really boring, really quick. Seeing journalists state how they were already getting very bored of it after just a few hours has me very, very worried, and I fear CDPR going backwards in quest design simply because they wanted to have a stupid 'Vision', and well, I think we could all guess the reason for its implementation but it is still in truth "speculation".

Variety is what you need and TW2 had it in abundance, which is what really strengthened its design. I just really hope that since we're only seeing little snippets of the game, we're not seeing the full picture and that variety does still exist, but I'm extremely worried considering the information we do have.

Yeah, totally. As I've said before, I can appreciate the idea of the Witcher senses as trying to convey Geralts superhuman senses, I think that there is some value in a mechanic like that. I feel the same way about Batman's detective vision. I dont think its inherently bad game design but I do think that its used too excessively in those games where the solution to every problem is: use detective mode. Unfortunately, CDPR may have fallen down a similar hole with these Witcher senses.

 

[Sneky]

Witcher senses have nothing to do with quest design. It is feature like medalion in Witcher 2. U can probably finish game without using WS at all. U can find all clues, hints etc etc without witcher senses.

 

[sidspyker]

I wouldn't go that far, WS seems to be 'useful' at tracking things but it doesn't feel like something that you need to keep turned on at all times(detective mode) to find ways through interiors/areas like the Batman games, most of the time you have to look for a wall to blow up or a point to access - it's not always clear.

So far I haven't seen the same with WS, nor have you been funneled into a very closed area and have to get around by blowing up walls, solving 'puzzles' in the way that you need to see what all is interactive and fire a batrang at some panel or grapple onto something or use a remote claw like device to tether two points and climb up. There's nothing comparable in Witcher that I can think of atm. It really feels like TW2's medallion 'Z' upgraded to an extent.

 

[Vigilance.492]

Witcher senses have nothing to do with quest design. It is feature like medalion in Witcher 2. U can probably finish game without using WS at all. U can find all clues, hints etc etc without witcher senses.

It is absolutely tied into the quest design.

Just look at the PAX Demo as an example. Sure you could turn arrows off and the NPC gives you enough information to find the caravan, but after that what do you do? You end up with 2 options:
1. Run around like a headless chicken trying to find the cave, because you have no information to go off after finding that caravan.
2. Use the Senses in which they lead you directly to the cave.

It's very clear the quest is designed around giving you enough information up until a certain point, and then you're meant to use Witcher Senses. Not to mention the other examples from both the Journalists and the other Gameplay Demos, Witcher Senses is absolutely inherently (And it seems overly frequently) tied into the quest design.

 

[Garrison72]

I wouldn't go that far, WS seems to be 'useful' at tracking things but it doesn't feel like something that you need to keep turned on at all times(detective mode) to find ways through interiors/areas like the Batman games, most of the time you have to look for a wall to blow up or a point to access - it's not always clear.

So far I haven't seen the same with WS, nor have you been funneled into a very closed area and have to get around by blowing up walls, solving 'puzzles' in the way that you need to see what all is interactive and fire a batrang at some panel or grapple onto something or use a remote claw like device to tether two points and climb up. There's nothing comparable in Witcher that I can think of atm. It really feels like TW2's medallion 'Z' upgraded to an extent.

Seeing hidden wolves 70 yards off is a pretty major upgrade. So is the idea of a past event playing out in ghostly fashion when a crime scene is 'scanned'. Not sure that parts still in though. Anyhow, it'd be hard to believe the QA team and seasoned lead designers would think abusing the mechanic is a good idea. I just want to see less of it featured in upcoming previews.

 

[thislsmadness]

Witcher senses have nothing to do with quest design. It is feature like medalion in Witcher 2. U can probably finish game without using WS at all. U can find all clues, hints etc etc without witcher senses.

Maybe, I dont know if what we've seen really suggests that though. For instance, in the PAX video Geralt follows the smell of wine to the cave. There did not appear to be any other indication that would lead you there.

I wouldn't go that far, WS seems to be 'useful' at tracking things but it doesn't feel like something that you need to keep turned on at all times(detective mode) to find ways through interiors/areas like the Batman games, most of the time you have to look for a wall to blow up or a point to access - it's not always clear.

So far I haven't seen the same with WS, nor have you been funneled into a very closed area and have to get around by blowing up walls, solving 'puzzles' in the way that you need to see what all is interactive and fire a batrang at some panel or grapple onto something or use a remote claw like device to tether two points and climb up. There's nothing comparable in Witcher that I can think of atm. It really feels like TW2's medallion 'Z' upgraded to an extent.

I mean that in the sense that, whether its highlighting the cracked wall or having you follow footsteps, the feature diminishes player involvement in solving these problems. Pretty much every application of WS we've seen during the quest has been following footprints/smells/sounds to the exact place you need to be. At the least, it would be interesting if the clues were a little more nebulous... maybe that is there, we'll have to see.

I do agree that, overall, the feature doesnt seem as bad as the detective vision since the Witcher senses seem much clearer about when/where you should use them. Whereas in Batman you're encouraged to use them all the time.

 

[EliHarel]

Yeah, I share the doubts. If Witcher Senses were just an improved TW2 medallion, then I wouldn't have cared. It being something you can toggle on\off and with a smooth transition is better than spamming a button and having Geralt caress his medallion over and over. But it was marketed as more. Hell, it was actually marketed. If this were just a more refined feature that highlights loot, there wouldn't be even any point in mentioning it. That's like emphasizing that you can add exclamation marks near quest givers. But it's been given some stage-time by CDPR, indicating they consider it to be something noteworthy. So far I'm not sold on the implementation.

It's been associated with investigation, but my understanding of that word is different than what has been shown. As a player I no longer pay attention when such a feature is available. I just turn it on and the game encourages me to move from one shiny thing to the other (in case there actually are multiple shiny things to 'Use'), until the rails appear that lead me without trouble to the destination. Like when finding Johnny, or the werewolf, or the cave thanks to the wine trail.

Take the wine example in the PAX video. A while ago when thinking about Witcher Senses and investigation, what I would have imagined is a very dynamic scene. Maybe with animals having walked over the wine real-time and creating many different paths for you to possibly follow, requiring the player to notice which one is human footprints, and which one is claws or hooves or paws or whatever. On this note I'll say that I'm not after something similar to Cedric in TW2, because if I remember correctly you couldn't deduct which path was the right one. Having something like that in a huge game, over and over, is worse than having one single direction. Having multiple directions that you can somehow deduct which is the correct one, however, sounds cool to me and engaging. There's some player involvement.

Now I get that some won't want to wander to no end and keep their experience focused. That's fine, and in that case, it's good that they have the Witcher Senses (and here's a confession: I'll probably have plenty of times when I'll use them myself, because when there's an option offered it's hard not to take advantage of it). A problem is that the game doesn't seem to offer you anything to go by, without the Senses. Again the wine example. After Geralt noticed that someone walked through the wine, he could have said, "He went north, maybe north-west. To a cave nearby? Perhaps a house." That leaves it open for exploration for players who don't want to rely on the Senses. It gives you a direction, which is important (aimlessness isn't appealing), but it's general enough for you to explore a bit, instead of it being a rail.



I'm aware that I could be dead wrong and that the Senses in the full game might be much more varied. But I don't think it's smart to speculate why and how a feature will be decidedly better than what was shown so far. As far as I'm concerned, what was shown is what we'll get. Especially when it's CDPR who consciously decides what to show.

 

[huber1989]

The only thing I want to hear/read is: You can solve investigations, monster hunting etc. without wither senses. Or to put it differently: The clues it highlights are not magically "created" by activating the senses but are actually recognizable by the player and can be interpreted without using X-Ray.

 

[Giovanni1983]

Looking at the gameplay vids, everytime i saw Geralt using his senses he didn't get any kind of quest update based on them unless i missed something obvious. You get updates and info when you reach certain clues in the game world.

My guess is that we will be able to do hunts without it. Maybe it won't be possible on every hunt especially when hunting something over long distance but i am fairly certain that most of the time we'll be able to do without it.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

Yeah, I share the doubts. If Witcher Senses were just an improved TW2 medallion, then I wouldn't have cared. It being something you can toggle on\off and with a smooth transition is better than spamming a button and having Geralt caress his medallion over and over. But it was marketed as more. Hell, it was actually marketed. If this were just a more refined feature that highlights loot, there wouldn't be even any point in mentioning it. That's like emphasizing that you can add exclamation marks near quest givers. But it's been given some stage-time by CDPR, indicating they consider it to be something noteworthy. So far I'm not sold on the implementation.

It's been associated with investigation, but my understanding of that word is different than what has been shown. As a player I no longer pay attention when such a feature is available. I just turn it on and the game encourages me to move from one shiny thing to the other (in case there actually are multiple shiny things to 'Use'), until the rails appear that lead me without trouble to the destination. Like when finding Johnny, or the werewolf, or the cave thanks to the wine trail.

Take the wine example in the PAX video. A while ago when thinking about Witcher Senses and investigation, what I would have imagined is a very dynamic scene. Maybe with animals having walked over the wine real-time and creating many different paths for you to possibly follow, requiring the player to notice which one is human footprints, and which one is claws or hooves or paws or whatever. On this note I'll say that I'm not after something similar to Cedric in TW2, because if I remember correctly you couldn't deduct which path was the right one. Having something like that in a huge game, over and over, is worse than having one single direction. Having multiple directions that you can somehow deduct which is the correct one, however, sounds cool to me and engaging. There's some player involvement.

Now I get that some won't want to wander to no end and keep their experience focused. That's fine, and in that case, it's good that they have the Witcher Senses (and here's a confession: I'll probably have plenty of times when I'll use them myself, because when there's an option offered it's hard not to take advantage of it). A problem is that the game doesn't seem to offer you anything to go by, without the Senses. Again the wine example. After Geralt noticed that someone walked through the wine, he could have said, "He went north, maybe north-west. To a cave nearby? Perhaps a house." That leaves it open for exploration for players who don't want to rely on the Senses. It gives you a direction, which is important (aimlessness isn't appealing), but it's general enough for you to explore a bit, instead of it being a rail.



I'm aware that I could be dead wrong and that the Senses in the full game might be much more varied. But I don't think it's smart to speculate why and how a feature will be decidedly better than what was shown so far. As far as I'm concerned, what was shown is what we'll get. Especially when it's CDPR who consciously decides what to show.

I agree completely.

I am a little disappointed - not a lot because tbh the senses were never a top priority for me in terms of the things I look forward to (alchemy, combat, story). But I kind of feel like they marketed this feature as a cool thing where you had to solve puzzles yourself and follow trails, make your own conclusions and so on, and now all it is is basically a highlighting mechanic for interactive objects and a glorified quest indicator. I expected more.

No offense CDPR, if nothing goes horribly wrong I will still LOVE you for creating such an amazing game that has (despite some negatives) so many innovative and amazing features and such a deep story (like I loved you after TW2), but I will not be able to feel a little bit disappointed if the Witcher senses turn out to be not more than detective vision or eagle sense, where you follow a linear trail leading RIGHT to the target without any chance for error or loosing the trail or the tracks being crossed by other tracks so you get distracted and have to pick out the right one. This mechanics has so many things you can do with, I hope you make use of it and don't just use it as an "upgrade" to the Medallion in TW2.

 

[gogmeister777]

If it wasn't for the visual effects and distortions that happen, I'd keep Witcher sense on all the time (when not in combat) just to get closer to that over-the-shoulder view Any concrete word on adjustable views with the mousewheel or something yet?

On topic: I agree with those who liked the TW2 Cedric quest because it was something of a rarity, using potions/medallion.

In most other cases, I'd like to have to natural environmental clues or use simple, old fashioned exploration, maybe with a verbal clue; you know, Geralt could mutter to himself 'Griffins attack close to their nest which are usually atop hills or mountains. Could be a cave entrance nearby.' Or it could show up in the quest log as Geralt's professional thoughts, that kind of thing.

Having said that, as long as it's not the main way to solve things in most quests, I'll be ok with it.

 

[JackieEstacado]

My concern about the Witcher Senses is not about the feature per se, but about the depth of the investigation.

I hope there are many situations in which Geralt doesn't know what he is after and he has to ask people, to make hypothesis, to go in other places searching for the same traces or clues he has previously found with his senses.

This would give depth to a mechanic that otherwise will look like another "Hansel and Gretel follow the bread crumbs trails to find their house" that Batman Arkham series has gotten us accustomed to.

 

[TheManWithTheHand]

Witcher sense allows for much more variation and it allows you the sensation of discovering / finding out things for yourself, rather than have the questgiver tell you exactly what's going on.

I'm all for it.

 

[hamilcarBarca.196]

yes for sounds it's a really good idea...
like for exemple,you are hearing wolves,then you enable your witcher sense to find where it is,and instead of seing circles pointing to a direction,you increase/decrease the sound depending on the direction of the animal...