Sword Requirement Levels, Equipment Level Scaling

[Exentryk]

I've seen the world "useless" used when talking about this system in very incorrect ways, but making all weapons scale UP with you truly would make getting new weapons useless from a Gameplay perspective, they'd essentially just become a "fashion" item.

The weapons aren't scaling up until level 99. The weapon that is supposed to be level 20 weapon, obtained by a level 10 Geralt thus getting scaled to a level 10 weapon should scale up to level 20. This is the weapon you got from a tough fight. It's only fair that you get to use it at that level 20.

Hell, the weapons should not even downscale, and there shouldn't even be a level lockout for weapons. If you've obtained a weapon after a tough fight, you deserve to use it in its full glory as soon as you get it.

 

[thislsmadness]

This is the self same issue I take with scaled loot. The sudden fear of exploring or taking a quest you find because it could lead you to an impressive sword that at higher levels would carry you to the end. Only now its locked at a lower level and is outclassed by a rusty cudgel within a few levels.

That would depend on how items stats scale. Generally, RPGs have a tiered system of item quality where common(white), rare(green), superior(blue), and exotic/legendary(orange); and it appears that the Witcher will be using all of these. Being that this is an action RPG, it wouldn't surprise me if the scaling isn't too loose.

 

[Vigilance.492]

The weapons aren't scaling up until level 99. The weapon that is supposed to be level 20 weapon, obtained by a level 10 Geralt thus getting scaled to a level 10 weapon should scale up to level 20. This is the weapon you got from a tough fight. It's only fair that you get to use it at that level 20.

Hell, the weapons should not even downscale, and there shouldn't even be a level lockout for weapons. If you've obtained a weapon after a tough fight, you deserve to use it in its full glory as soon as you got it.

Ah I see what you're saying.

Well I can't really argue with that, seems fair. New weapons would downscale anyway, so it would more-so be about what additional effects the weapons give, and whether the effects are more useful to your current "build".

Guess we'll just have to wait and hear a bit more about the system, or I'm inclined to believe that since it's a more last minute change, it might be something we'll have to wait and see on release.

 

[noctiscaelumII]

The weapons aren't scaling up until level 99. The weapon that is supposed to be level 20 weapon, obtained by a level 10 Geralt thus getting scaled to a level 10 weapon should scale up to level 20. This is the weapon you got from a tough fight. It's only fair that you get to use it at that level 20.

Hell, the weapons should not even downscale, and there shouldn't even be a level lockout for weapons. If you've obtained a weapon after a tough fight, you deserve to use it in its full glory as soon as you get it.

I've been lurking this forum for so long but never really registered and posted but I'm posting because this really bothered me, I hope they change this level requirement thing for sword or at least implement what you stated.

 

[Indescribable]

The weapon will also become "set" at whatever level you pick it up at, so if it scales down to level 10, it won't continue scaling until level 20,

Wait, so does this mean the sword you pick up will be locked at level 10 stats when you pick it up and you are level 10, but then once you hit level 20 it'll go from its level 10 scaling to level 20 scaling? If so, I think that'd be a relatively happy medium, prevents the player from being grossly OP, but doesn't punish them for picking that sword up early. If it stayed at level 10 for the rest of the game though, I'd find that a bit disappointing as I might unintentionally lock a sword down to a lower level.

 

[arkhenon]

Actually having the weapon scale up until its original level would be a pretty good idea. I would like that, if it does not break the balance of the game (As I have no way to judge that, without playing the game).

Lots of speculation here....in this here thread.

I agree with that. But we are just going from Damien's words on the stream. If it's worded incorrectly, they can safely disregard what we say here Otherwise, it would be wise to create ideas. But yeah, all in all, REDs know the game and its balance, and they will be the ones to decide what breaks it and what does not. I'm willing to trust them

 

[Garrison72]

Lots of speculation here....in this here thread.

 

[gtcarlson]

I haven't been keeping up to date on everything so correct me if I'm wrong, but do people really think we'll be killing monsters 10+ levels higher on a constant basis. I feel that for most people this system will work great., you wont see any items you cant use and you'll still get cool weapons (modifiers intact) from hard foes and for the average gamer probably only scaled down a level or two. It is also hugely dependent on the slope of power increase in the game.

 

[arkhenon]

@gtcarlson Actually that is a valid point. Apparently it will be really tough (maybe impossible) to kill an epic monster (not ordinary ones, as I don't think they'll drop quality weapons) that is many levels ahead of us. So this system may not even create any problems. That's why I'm saying REDs know best how the game balances itself out.

Although, not being able to kill enemies more than 10 levels ahead of you, even if you fight perfectly, may introduce other issues. I'm okay with that, but I'm guessing some people won't be

 

[EliHarel]

Some posts make it sound as if you have just three swords in the entire game to choose from. I still don't have a solid opinion about this new system, and I never had a problem with locking equipment to certain levels because it's a known RPG mechanic from the dawn of time to balance things ("casualization" and "MMORPGish" are really thrown randomly sometimes). But at the least I'm guessing that if you're 10 and get a level 20 sword scaled to your level, by the time you're 20 (when in the original system you could have used it), it's very likely you would have found a better sword during that range of levels. Scaling a weapon down and locking it doesn't empty every accomplishment from meaning and it certainly doesn't make loot useless. And I'm certainly not in favor of breaking the game's very delicate balance. There are way too many things in question for us to just so casually say "yeah, sure, fuck the balance". In a huge world without monster scaling I believe the power differences are a way for CDPR to maintain at least some direction for the story and keep it relatively focused.

 

[Thothistox]

@gtcarlson Actually that is a valid point. Apparently it will be really tough (maybe impossible) to kill an epic monster (not ordinary ones, as I don't think they'll drop quality weapons) that is many levels ahead of us. So this system may not even create any problems. That's why I'm saying REDs know best how the game balances itself out.

Although, not being able to kill enemies more than 10 levels ahead of you, even if you fight perfectly, may introduce other issues. I'm okay with that, but I'm guessing some people won't be

The thing is that killing monsters is not the only way of getting loot. You can steal it, find it stashed somewhere or get it through some half-cheating way. For example, if the city guards have level 20 common swords and there are many enemies outside, lure the guards out and loot one if he dies then run away. Suddenly you have a level 20 sword that is massively OP and the balance of your game is ruined. The new system fixes that problem entirely: the sword is common and it locks at level 10. So, it's an okay sword and not a good sword.

I agree that the REDs probably know what they're doing on this one and we should trust them.

 

[Exentryk]

This current weapon system makes me consider the following:
- Why should I bother venturing out and beating tougher monsters?
- Why should i bother exploring every corner of the world if I can accidentally ruin a strong weapon that I might find.

It's like the game wants to punish the people that might put in more time and effort in the game. There is absolutely no reason why the weapon should not upscale to its original level.

 

[mecha_fish]

it makes me wonder if they would inform you of the 'required' level in the inventory at all with this newer system -- the latest gameplay shots of the inventory suggest you can still see the sword level 'requirements' in their stats. imo i'd rather be ignorant that i'd just downscaled some majestic weapon to suit my Level 10 character at the time if that's how the system is going to work. but like others have said, the devs are probably still working on it so i suspect it'll make more sense on release.

 

[thislsmadness]

This current weapon system makes me consider the following:
- Why should I bother venturing out and beating tougher monsters?
- Why should i bother exploring every corner of the world if I can accidentally ruin a strong weapon that I might find.

Personally, I would still do it because the actual act of exploring the world and conquering challenging monsters are where the fun are for me, the reward is neat but its something that'll be replaced a few levels later anyway. Its the same reason I'm going to play the game on Dark Mode instead of Easy and turn off quest markers, even if there are no rewards for doing that.

 

[Exentryk]

Personally, I would still do it because the actual act of exploring the world and conquering challenging monsters are where the fun are for me, the reward is neat but its something that'll be replaced a few levels later anyway. Its the same reason I'm going to play the game on Dark Mode instead of Easy and turn off quest markers, even if there are no rewards for doing that.

Overall, I'm sure most of us can overlook this and the game will still work out fine. I would just like to know why CDPR thought this was a better idea compared to upscaling the weapon to its original level. Upscaling doesn't break the balance and it doesn't cause any weapon downgrade issues. All they have to do is make the weapon upscale to its original level.

 

[hellrazare]

I don't see this as a big problem. I remember reading somewhere they have it to where the best in game equipment will be crafted. If you find a awesome sword and later it's lacking just go have a new one forged. I'm guessing we will find recipes or they will unlock as we clear areas and tradesmen move in with better recipies. So why not just not worry about the weapons and armor you find but keep progressing and unlocking new npcs to have better gear show up? I'd rather have a nice custom forged weapon I may have some input in and slot my own runes ect. Wouldn't you? I mean you know how you play wouldn't you prefer an item tailored with that in mind? I'm not saying epic loot shouldn't exist or whatnot. But maybe some of that epic loot will be materials used to craft said epic sword and you can choose to hold on to it till you can craft said epic sword. Idk just my thoughts.

 

[BiggusD1]

To late to worry about it now

 

[thislsmadness]

Overall, I'm sure most of us can overlook this and the game will still work out fine. I would just like to know why CDPR thought this was a better idea compared to upscaling the weapon to its original level. Upscaling doesn't break the balance and it doesn't cause any weapon downgrade issues. All they have to do is make the weapon upscale to its original level.

I'm not saying that this will ruin the game for anyone else, I'm just explaining why it doesn't curve my desire to explore and challenge tough monsters. As far as the upscaling is concerned, Damien kinda addresses that and says that there will be plenty of opportunities for quality loot and that you just "move forward" without worrying about it.

 

[EliHarel]

This current weapon system makes me consider the following:
- Why should I bother venturing out and beating tougher monsters?
- Why should i bother exploring every corner of the world if I can accidentally ruin a strong weapon that I might find.

Vigilance answers:

I guess it's up to personal opinion, but frankly I get immense satisfaction from the simple act of killing an incredibly challenging opponent.

Easily the greatest moment of my first Dragon's Dogma playthrough was running through the woods and discovering the 'Drake' for the first time. It would one-shot me, it would generally one-shot all my AI companions. I had to run around like crazy constantly rezzing, ensuring that EVERY move I made was calculated as much as possible to ensure the Drake didn't turn around and one-shot swipe me. I had to learn its patterns, use every consumable and enhancement available to ensure victory. It took me like a dozen tries, and some of those attempts took me upwards of 20-30 minutes just to end up dying with the Drake at 1 HP bubble left.
When he died, I received no weapons, no significant loot and the crafting components I did receive I never even used on that playthrough. But you know what, it was the most adrenaline pumping, intense, challenging, crazy encounter I had in the entire game. The rush, the exhilaration and that literal "FUCK YEAH" yell and pure joy I had when he finally lay as a corpse in front of me... No other moment in the game even comes close.
I want those moments in The Witcher 3, those moments are what make open worlds without level scaling worth it.

Ultimately I do understand where you guys are coming from, there's ways you can balance a game without putting level requirements on weapons (Dragon's Dogma actually does this fairly well) and I get the frustration. However there's definitely still satisfaction to be derived from exploration and constantly taking on challenges beyond you, regardless of loot. If someone actually stops exploring or taking on those tough challenges simply because they feel they aren't going to be physically rewarded well enough, then the game simply isn't being designed for them, and they're going to miss out on the challenges and fun.

I can't shake the feeling that some points here are really forcefully made and are blown out of proportion. I think for example about Bloodborne, maybe the most famous example about a challenging game, and almost every time I hear someone talk about fighting stronger foes there he talks about an immense sense of satisfaction, and not once brings up the matter of loot. I'm watching Odd's Let's Play of the game and loot barely plays a role to begin with. And it still manages to be captivating.

As for why should you bother exploring...

I mean, really? Your sole reason for exploration is loot? Not... quests, or the view, or random and unexpected events, characters, or books to read and small things that tell a small story, or just that moment of "whoa, didn't know this was here"? And there are so many other examples just from TW2, that tiny game, that I can't be bothered to link to now. But the sword? That's the main reason for exploration?

If that's the case, then yep, I'm not sure why you should bother exploring. I do think that you're reducing exploration to maybe the most insignificant element, but what can I do, those are your priorities. Or maybe this discussion is losing perspective because the thread is about loot, which might cause us to forget that the game has a little more going for it than finding a strong weapon. Still, maybe this might calm your doubts - the game doesn't have just three weapons in all of its 100 hours and that's it. Even if you accidentally "ruin" a sword that had the potential to be stronger, don't be bothered - you'll find more stuff. And I'm pretty sure that at a relatively satisfying pace. Furthermore, it was said that the best equipment in the game will be achievable in fun crafting quests, so you have some measure of control still.

 

[shawn_kh]

I watched the QA and from what I gathered Geralt's level determines the stats of a given weapon upon finding it ,and the stats are locked at that point.
What I would have liked to see is a level 20 weapon scaling down to 12, when Geralt is level 10 in order to give the player a slight advantage for their hard work. The weapon would then scale up with Geralt as he levels up until it caps off at the original 20. This would be rewarding, but at the same time the player is encouraged to look for new weapons with higher level caps.
I think the current system discourages the players to go look for loots, because they are afraid that they might lock a weapon's stat that they aesthetically fancy too early which would render it useless. This system would be especially discouraging if it's also implemented for armors, because aesthetics play a bigger role with armors.