Sword Requirement Levels, Equipment Level Scaling

+
If it's at all possible, reducing or even removing said scaling will be one of the first things on the list to do. At least make the items scale as you level up as well, otherwise this system is just a cheap way to make it seem like there's item progression. It'll make people that much more careful about obtaining items.

Meh, it's just another thing that lessens excitement since this was revealed.
 
Last edited:
I have been so excited about everything that has been said about this game, until now. This item scaling feature seems like the worst idea ever. Mostly all forms of scaling in singleplayer games are terrible.

I would rather do it like this... Instead of scaling down a weapon and locking it to that power it should evolve until it reaches its true potential. Lets say you pick up a lvl 20 weapon in some dungeon, but you manage to beat this dungeon at lvl 15. Now you are rewarded with this sword, and you can use it at that level, but it has yet to show its true potential. And when you level up the weapon levels up with you until it reaches its maximum potential. This way you will be able to use the item at lower levels if you manage to find it, but not feel cheated by a stupid scaling system because you found the weapon at a lower level. I would rather store the weapon somewhere than be awarded a worse version of that weapon.

Or remove levels and have static stats on items, I would much rather find a extremely powerful weapon and have that for a long time than have all items scale with me, it just makes the world seem cheap and artificial.
 
If the in-between lvl item scaling is done well (ergo small differences and linear progression), and the downscaled Higher Lvl item (if indeed only the base damage scales down) is able to take advantage of its special properties (more rune slots, more bonuses), then I think the system could strike the right balance between blazing through the game with a sword high above your level, overusing a single item because it scales back up with you, and changing the item every 30 minutes because you just leveled up and the "White" lvl 16 item is already better than the Lvl 20 Legendary that downscaled back to 15 when you looted it.

Hypothetical numbers following:
Say basic sword damage scales on these lvls like this:
lvl 15 - 25-35
lvl 16 - 26-36
lvl 17 - 27-37
lvl 18 - 28-38
lvl 19 - 29-39
lvl 20 - 30-40

Now you have equipped a lvl 15 "White" sword with 25-35 base dmg and small bonus since it's just a basic item (say +10% Bleeding). You kill a big lvl 20 beast and make an originally Lvl 20 Legendary Sword out of the monster's rare blue shit, which that bastard kept stored in a jar. If on lvl 20, the Rare Blue Shit Sword would've had a base dmg of 30-40 (not sure if the items on the same lvl will differ in the basic stats when it comes to their rarity), but now it downscaled back to 25-35. Luckily for you, the sword also has +25 % Bleeding, +10% Poisoning (I am using TW2 stats here) and two rune slots - one for being a Legendary and one for being a higher lvl tier weapon (say basic 1-19 swords have no runes, 20-39 have one rune and 40-60 have 2 runes). You put 2 Ysgith runes into it (let them have +10% dmg bonus and +8% Bleeding bonus in TW3).

Counting runes in, you now have a 30-41 dmg sword with +41% Bleeding and +15% Poisoning. That's quite a bit better that your lvl 15 basic sword. It is even around the quality of the lvl 20 basic sword (counting 1 rune for 2 tier wpn, 33-44 dmg, 15+8% Bleeding) and probably around the quality of Lvl 18 Legendary sword even if you loot that one at Lvl 18 (counting 1 rune for a Legendary, 31-42 dmg, 20+8% Bleeding, 10% Poisoning). You may it keep for quite some time, because leveling in TW3 apparently takes up quite some time. You don't really even need it to scale back up with you and it will still retain its usefulness for 3-4 hours (thanks to the Bonuses staying on the high tier) before you get a new one. It could scale back up, but then you would know that you don't really even need to loot anything until you are at lvl 21, because your sword will remain at the top thanks to basic dmg scaling and the Bonuses staying permanently at level 20.

This way you will
1) enjoy your sword for more than a single level
2) will still be pressed to find new stuff, because you can't be exactly sure when it will come
3) not be OP

Now of course if the basic stat lvl differences are much wider and the nonscaling bonuses not as strong as what I described, then the additional rune and Bleeding bonus won't save your sword from becoming obsolete once you level up once and this whole thing has been pointless:

Lvl 15 - 20-30
Lvl 16 - 33-48
Lvl 17 - 40-57

Your bonuses and runes won't help much here, because 20% bonus damage won't even get the Lvl 15 to equal Lvl 16 damage, because the items scale like crazy.

If it is done the way I described (far more thought out obviously) and if there are also items that do not scale (so you won't run into a situation where you can't obtain any Lvl 60 Legendary because you have already looted and used all the materials before) then I really don't see a (huge) problem with this.
 
Last edited:
I just thought of a compromise - sort of. I'm not sure if it makes any sense, but the item could be downscaled and eventually level up only when you reach its original level requirement. This way you're not 'covered' with that one legendary sword (or whatever you call it), and still don't feel like you've "ruined" a special item by picking it up early.
 
Last edited:
If the in-between lvl item scaling is done well (ergo small differences and linear progression), and the downscaled Higher Lvl item (if indeed only the base damage scales down) is able to take advantage of its special properties (more rune slots, more bonuses), then I think the system could strike the right balance between...
I don't really think there's any "right" balance to strike, because the balance doesn't even matter that much on this topic.
What matters is that scaling down the weapon to any degree according to the level you'll find it is a poor concept in itself, regardless of how balanced it is.

It could even be the case that a lvl 1 weapon without any special ability would be sufficient to play the whole game without many issues and I *STILL* wouldn't like the idea of weapons scaling (up or down) to your level.
Of course, in that scenario there would be even worse issues, like the game being simply too easy. But as I said that would be an entirely different topic to discuss.
 
This is what I'm failing to get.

People have stated multiple, multiple reasons why the current implementation would be very beneficial to proper game pacing and weapon/loot balance.

The opposing side though, seems locked on the sole argument that downscaled = ruined item.

It doesn't matter if it helps game balance, if the implementation solves pacing problems, doesn't significantly affect weapon quality/usefulness, or even if it /increases/ weapon usefulness.

All that matters is a hypothetical potential that may or may not ever be reached. (Let's assume non-downscaled, then you kill a monster +3 levels from you. An hour later you kill another monster +3 levels from you. Now the sword you couldn't use yet is a sword you may never use).

Regardless of the numerous situation in which downscaling would be beneficial to the game experience as a whole, the quest for the highest stats on every piece of gear is treated as the raison d'être either killing monsters, looting at all, and in some cases, playing the game at all.

This feels like a very limited and unwavering point of view.
 
I think too many people are thinking in a one-way implementation for this game design aspect.

The idea of the current system is, that a powerful special sword, isnt special and powerful because of the stat that gets downscaled to your level, and is instead special and valuable because of its special effects and combination of defining attributes.

Now I have no evidence this is what will happen of course, but its a logical and not totally stupid way to do it, and its good to consider it as a possibility, rather than automatically assuming whatever thing you dont like will also get implemented in the worst way possible so that it fails miserably.

If damage changes according to your level when you find a weapon, its extremely likely that damage will never be what makes a weapon legendary or very valuable, otherwise it'd make no sense, nobody would design something like that.

There are also other variables, such as damage downscaling responding to a percentage and not a fixed number, which would actually allow even damage to make a weapon special based on it. (you pick a sword at level 5, the sword gets reduced damage only 10% if its supposed to be especially damaging, unlike 30% or more compared to other swords)

The linear attributes that would create an imbalance because all swords have them and and some have to be better, such as damage, will naturally not matter much, and thats why its accommodated to your level. So on the other hand its actually the special effects and damages and benefits, the things that make weapons legendary, or crap or whatever, and of course, because of that these dont scale with your level. Combinations being very important too.

Think of this as in the weapon balance of battlefield or FPSs, you have weapons that excel in different attributes, such as a shotgun in damage vs an F2000 in fire rate and range, and while these guns are great at their jobs, making them each valuable for different things, what do players always do because of how dynamic FPS games are? try to find the most balanced weapon, the one gun that has such a balanced combination of good enough stats, that will be versatile and flexible without sacrificing too much in any aspect. These guns eventually are called OP for that reason.

Now my point with this analogy, is that this is very certainly how things will work in TW3: weapons will progress according to their overall value and practical uses. So a crap sword will just have damage, which any other swrod will give you too, but a legendary sword might have 10 fire damage too, and an even more legendary sword might have 10 fire damage and 10 vitality regeneration or whatever.
This makes it easy to make weapons both balanced and always valuable, there's no such thing as "weapon ruining", because you can find a legendary sword early on, and no matter if its damage is reduced, its other stats will remain to make it legendary as it should be, and nothing can ruin that.

The swords getting ruined argument would only work if swords would truly lose what makes them great or unique, and so far everything said by CDPR points to the opposite. In fact, lets be honest, most swords in TW2 never were special because they made incredible high damage compared to others, they were special because of the special effects and so on, most of them had very comparable damage and the decision of which to keep and improve ultimately depended on its "bonus" features,and in TW3 it will be like this once again.
 
This is what I'm failing to get.

People have stated multiple, multiple reasons why the current implementation would be very beneficial to proper game pacing and weapon/loot balance.

The opposing side though, seems locked on the sole argument that downscaled = ruined item.

It doesn't matter if it helps game balance, if the implementation solves pacing problems, doesn't significantly affect weapon quality/usefulness, or even if it /increases/ weapon usefulness.

All that matters is a hypothetical potential that may or may not ever be reached. (Let's assume non-downscaled, then you kill a monster +3 levels from you. An hour later you kill another monster +3 levels from you. Now the sword you couldn't use yet is a sword you may never use).

Regardless of the numerous situation in which downscaling would be beneficial to the game experience as a whole, the quest for the highest stats on every piece of gear is treated as the raison d'être either killing monsters, looting at all, and in some cases, playing the game at all.

This feels like a very limited and unwavering point of view.
I wrote something similar and hesitated about posting it because I felt I was just going to feed a thread with people who are adamant about hating something. But what the hell - I'll echo you here.

I keep being surprised by how categorically against this some are. @C0bR described in his post two different situations where this could be good or bad, realizing that how it might be received depends on many other factors, and explained why. Factors which we do not yet know. Saying unequivocally that it's a poor concept in and of itself without even knowing the full picture or playing the game seems way too presumptuous to me - just like belittling that some people prefer a sense of progression that comes from a well-paced change and improvement of gear. We do not know nearly enough at this point to judge so casually if it's a terrible design choice or not, no matter how much we fancy ourselves better developers and wiser gamers than CDPR. When it comes to gameplay features that rely on so many others for them to be good or bad, just have a bit of integrity and humility to wait with your opinions before you've played the game and experienced the implementation of the balance CDPR chose. This thing needs to be judged with all things considered. Approach it without bias, and then reach your verdict.

Severals reasons why downscaled items can be good were mentioned (which isn't to say it's impossible for CDPR to botch it up). Some more in detail than others, like what C0bR wrote. The last pages aren't encouraging debate, however, because the "other side" doesn't seem interested in accepting that there are others who do not dogmatically hold this as a terrible design. When reasons are given why some prefer it, and how some consider it might be fun, when other factors are weighed in and are properly implemented, these reasons are just brushed aside and in their stead there's that same old mantra of "bad design, bad design."

This is a very "locked" discussion, the way it's been handling so far, when one side doesn't believe there's any possibility whatsoever for a certain mechanic to ever be good. No matter the circumstances. Nothing much can be done about that.

I really believe that "wait and see" isn't some banal saying or a dodging maneuver. Not in this case, when a feature's success is extremely dependent on its interaction with so many other factors, factors that we are not yet aware of.
 
It looks like it's just about being realistic about using the weapon... I dunno, the more I think about it, the more reasonable I think it is (or rather, won't care about). This is auto generation to suit a level, right? And the super special swords aren't auto generated so they're fixed, right? Actually, where do the level requirements even come in anymore? At this point, I think if I didn't see a number that says "level required : 20" in the inventory it wouldn't bother me, because that number doesn't have a meaning to me. Sure, it might've been optimal for me to pick up the weapon at that level, but if I don't know about it, I don't care. I'm just judging the weapon by its stats and not worrying about this meta concept called 'levels'. And Damien said the weapons will still be reasonably cool and special to players who pick them up earlier than planned.

My five cents: if they remove the level requirements in the inventory menu, then tbh I just picked up a sword and I'll probably pick up another one at level 20. In this case, ignorance is bliss.
 
Last edited:
My five cents: if they remove the level requirements in the inventory menu, then tbh I just picked up a sword and I'll probably pick up another one at level 20. In this case, ignorance is bliss.
Exactly, if the developers hadn't told us about this at all (and if it's not mentioned in the game), most people wouldn't have even noticed it.
 

http://games.tiscali.cz/obrazky/podivejte-se-na-ukazky-ceske-lokalizace-tretiho-zaklinace-250040

Hmmm.... I think that the big red "X" cross on the two sword means that that items have higher level than level of player. I think that items will scale only if you give them to Geralt in active equipment, not when you pick them from ground or buy from trader.
 
Hmmm.... I think that the big red "X" cross on the two sword means that that items have higher level than level of player. I think that items will scale only if you give them to Geralt in active equipment, not when you pick them from ground or buy from trader.

I interpreted the Xs as the swords being broken. If they autoscale, then he can use them, so then there's no need for any indication about the levelling -- at least, that's the impression I'm getting. But yeah -- speculation. You could be right.

As for when the items scale -- I distinctly recall Damien saying it happens as soon as you pick it up.
 
There is a small red hammer above the armor - i think that it means that armor needs repair. I don't think that there will be 2 different symbols for broken items.
 
Well it could be that once it's completely broken (Red Cross) then it will cost a lot to be repaired but if it has the hammer icon then it means it's nearly broken but repairing it at this point will be cheaper compared to completely broken items but it's just speculation from my side.
 
I think we need more info on how this system actually works.
If weapon level get's down-scaled right after you pick it up that sucks.
If weapon got down-scaled only if you equipped it ( you can keep it in inventory without penalty) that at least give you freedom of choice: you save it for higher level or use it.
 
This is what I'm failing to get.

People have stated multiple, multiple reasons why the current implementation would be very beneficial to proper game pacing and weapon/loot balance.
I have YET to read one single convincing argument about level scaled loot being either necessary or beneficial.

Everyone who tried to argue for it so far failed to address that...
1) there are alternative, more elegant solutions that would make scaling unnecessary, while achieving the same (overrated) design goals of "balance".
2) the game doesn't exist in a vacuum and any previous implementation of the same idea in other games ended feeling terrible.

I think too many people are thinking in a one-way implementation for this game design aspect.

The idea of the current system is, that a powerful special sword, isnt special and powerful because of the stat that gets downscaled to your level, and is instead special and valuable because of its special effects and combination of defining attributes..
Look, people aren't "faling to get the idea". The problem is that it sucks anyway.

No matter to what degree, scaling down weapons to the level you get them it's simply a way to PUNISH any attempt from the player to get them as early as possible, *especially* in a game where enemies on the other hand don't scale at all.
 
Last edited:
It looks like it's just about being realistic about using the weapon... I dunno, the more I think about it, the more reasonable I think it is (or rather, won't care about). This is auto generation to suit a level, right? And the super special swords aren't auto generated so they're fixed, right? Actually, where do the level requirements even come in anymore? At this point, I think if I didn't see a number that says "level required : 20" in the inventory it wouldn't bother me, because that number doesn't have a meaning to me. Sure, it might've been optimal for me to pick up the weapon at that level, but if I don't know about it, I don't care. I'm just judging the weapon by its stats and not worrying about this meta concept called 'levels'. And Damien said the weapons will still be reasonably cool and special to players who pick them up earlier than planned.

My five cents: if they remove the level requirements in the inventory menu, then tbh I just picked up a sword and I'll probably pick up another one at level 20. In this case, ignorance is bliss.

I'm willing to bet that that is exactly how it will work. Theres no reason to tell the player the item has been scaled or even include any type of level info in the tooltip. The player will never know that an item has been downscaled, youll just find a "super awesome" item and happily equip it -- that would make perfect sense to their stated goal.

As someone else pointed out, If Damien hadn't mentioned the scaling I doubt many would have ever noticed it. They would have just assumed that they lifted the level restrictions on most equipment.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom