The Witcher 3 Alchemy System

[web-head91]

The new system is fine. It's already been proven to work wonderfully, in Inquisition. I didn't use potions a lot on other games, but use them a lot in Inquisition. Problem solved.
.

i'm sorry, but the alchemy system in inquisition sucks. in fact, that game is everything that an RPG shouldn't be. it's just a single player MMORPG with filler content, boring gameplay mechanics and streamlined features.
as for potions, sure you need them, but the way they're done is horrible.
a game such as TW3 that is all about challenge,choices&consequences, and attention to detail (as they showed in the latest gameplay trailer) shouldn't have an auto-refill for potions in the first place, and the fact that there's no drinking animation makes it even worse.

 

[Solid_Altair]

i'm sorry, but the alchemy system in inquisition sucks. in fact, that game is everything that an RPG shouldn't be. it's just a single player MMORPG with filler content, boring gameplay mechanics and streamlined features.
as for potions, sure you need them, but the way they're done is horrible.
a game such as TW3 that is all about challenge,choices&consequences, and attention to detail (as they showed in the latest gameplay trailer) shouldn't have an auto-refill for potions in the first place, and the fact that there's no drinking animation makes it even worse.

Where are the challenge, choice and consequence in the repetitiveness of getting alchemy ingridients?

The auto-refill is there so we can actually focus on challenge, choice and consequence, instead of wasting our time with grind.

And doesn't Geralt drink them while meditating? We medidate in a menu. It doesn't mean he doesn't drink it while the time is passing. It'd be awkward if he drank at the very end of the meditation, while getting up.

 

[schinderhannes.999]

i'm sorry, but the alchemy system in inquisition sucks. in fact, that game is everything that an RPG shouldn't be. it's just a single player MMORPG with filler content, boring gameplay mechanics and streamlined features.
as for potions, sure you need them, but the way they're done is horrible.
a game such as TW3 that is all about challenge,choices&consequences, and attention to detail (as they showed in the latest gameplay trailer) shouldn't have an auto-refill for potions in the first place, and the fact that there's no drinking animation makes it even worse.

Where are the challenge, choice and consequence in the repetitiveness of getting alchemy ingridients?

What @web-head91 was trying to bring across (I think) is, that crafting and 'recrafting' a potion in the previous installments contributed (quite significantly for a decent percentage of the audience) to the overall immersive experience of being or properly role-playing a Witcher. Having to gather ingredients, either through picking herbs or slaying creatures for body parts and then actively preparing the potions, exchanging certain ingredients to produce different combinations of the alchemical components contained within (for more beneficial side effects or blocking out negative side effects of the resulting potions) and so on.

Think of it as a 'the journey is the reward' kind of experience, where you are able to derive enjoyment and a sort of fulfillment or gratification from having to put at least some effort in being able to use potions at the end of the day.
Resting/meditating and just having your used up potions refill, more or less out of the blue with no (real) effort or any input from the player whatsoever is just plain too easy and on top of that takes the actual experimentation (and fun part) out of the procedure.

The auto-refill is there so we can actually focus on challenge, choice and consequence, instead of wasting our time with grind.

And doesn't Geralt drink them while meditating? We medidate in a menu. It doesn't mean he doesn't drink it while the time is passing. It'd be awkward if he drank at the very end of the meditation, while getting up.

There would be no grind or less grind if CDPR actually would have listenend and taken notice of some of the countless suggestions and solutions (in this very thread, by the way) for an alchemy system 3.0 that could have satisfied both proponents of the old ways and new.
Personally I would have gathered or stocked only the exact amount of ingredients needed to create or recreate X potions/potion charges anyway. That's what looking up formulae is usually there for, avoiding 'over-grinding' and accidentally hoarding way too much ingredients.

And I find it hard to imagine that gathering or 'grinding' for ingredients once in a while (when the multiple charges per potion are actually used up) would have made up the lion's share of the 200+ hours the game supposedly has to offer or would have kept you from focusing on other things that are there to do.

 

[moonknightgog]

The auto-refill is there so we can actually focus on challenge, choice and consequence, instead of wasting our time with grind.

This problem just doesn't exist. There was no grinding at all in The Witcher 1/2.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

i'm sorry, but the alchemy system in inquisition sucks. in fact, that game is everything that an RPG shouldn't be. it's just a single player MMORPG with filler content, boring gameplay mechanics and streamlined features.
as for potions, sure you need them, but the way they're done is horrible.
a game such as TW3 that is all about challenge,choices&consequences, and attention to detail (as they showed in the latest gameplay trailer) shouldn't have an auto-refill for potions in the first place, and the fact that there's no drinking animation makes it even worse.

This so much. The alchemy system was just downgraded to generic mainstream fantasy potion drinking. The new system pays little attention to detail and little attention to the lore. Streamlining at its worst, made for noobies who don't give a shit or don't know anything about the franchise and its world.

This system is full of bad decisions:

1) auto-refill
2) potions during combat instead of proper preparation before combat
3) no drinking animation

Probably the worst thing is that CDPR's actual goal for this new system is deeply flawed. They wanted people to use alchemy and potions on a bigger scale. But why? Following the lore and the previous games Geralt only uses potions when he knows that he will face extreme dangers and very deadly monsters. He knows that his potions are highly toxix so he tries to minimize their usage. He never drinks any potions when fighting against humans in the books for example. He never drinks any potion if there is a surprising encounter. The only occasion when he drinks potions is when he is on the hunt for monsters or facing extreme dangers. The system in Witcher 3 is a radical change from that philosophy in favor of a completely generic fantasy approach aka "drinking a bunch of potions in every fight" which not only leads to alchemy and potions losing their strength and meaning as "weapons of last resort" but also to pointless and tedious ingredient grinding and a general lack of immersion...

Sorry, guys, but imo just bad design. And so SO unnecessary...

 

[Lieste]

What @web-head91 was trying to bring across (I think) is, that crafting and 'recrafting' a potion in the previous installments contributed (quite significantly for a decent percentage of the audience) to the the overall immersive experience of being or properly role-playing a Witcher. Having to gather ingredients, either through picking herbs or slaying creatures for body parts and then actively preparing the potions, exchanging certain ingredients to produce different combinations of the alchemical components contained within (for more beneficial side effects or blocking out negative side effects in the resulting potions) and so on.

Think of it as a 'the journey is the reward' kind of experience, where you are able to derive enjoyment and a sort of fulfillment or gratification from putting at least some effort in being able to use potions at the end of the day.
Resting/meditating and just having your used up potions refill, more or less out of the blue with no (real) effort or any input from the player whatsoever is just plain too easy and on top of that takes the actual experimentation (and fun part) out of the procedure.

There would be no grind or less grind if CDPR actually would have listenend and taken notice of some of the countless suggestions and solutions (in this very thread, by the way) for an alchemy system 3.0 that could have satisfied both proponents of the old ways and new.
Personally I would have gathered or stocked only the exact amount of ingredients needed to create or recreate X potions/potion charges anyway. That's what looking up formulae is usually there for, avoiding 'over-grinding' and accidentally hoarding way too much ingredients.

And I find it hard to imagine that gathering or 'grinding' for ingredients once in a while (when the multiple charges per potion are actually used up) would have made up the lion's share of the 200+ hours the game supposedly has to offer or would have kept you from focusing on other things that are there to do.

I think most gamers role play the brewing of potions sufficiently to be adequate. Everytime you meditate, go and make some coffee/tea/open a new beer. Jobs's a good'un.

 

[schinderhannes.999]

I think most gamers role play the brewing of potions sufficiently to be adequate. Everytime you meditate, go and make some coffee/tea/open a new beer. Jobs's a good'un.

A real shame that 'most gamers' seem to be the target audience for CDPR these days.

 

[web-head91]

What @web-head91 was trying to bring across (I think) is, that crafting and 'recrafting' a potion in the previous installments contributed (quite significantly for a decent percentage of the audience) to the overall immersive experience of being or properly role-playing a Witcher. Having to gather ingredients, either through picking herbs or slaying creatures for body parts and then actively preparing the potions, exchanging certain ingredients to produce different combinations of the alchemical components contained within (for more beneficial side effects or blocking out negative side effects of the resulting potions) and so on.

Think of it as a 'the journey is the reward' kind of experience, where you are able to derive enjoyment and a sort of fulfillment or gratification from having to put at least some effort in being able to use potions at the end of the day.
Resting/meditating and just having your used up potions refill, more or less out of the blue with no (real) effort or any input from the player whatsoever is just plain too easy and on top of that takes the actual experimentation (and fun part) out of the procedure.

There would be no grind or less grind if CDPR actually would have listenend and taken notice of some of the countless suggestions and solutions (in this very thread, by the way) for an alchemy system 3.0 that could have satisfied both proponents of the old ways and new.
Personally I would have gathered or stocked only the exact amount of ingredients needed to create or recreate X potions/potion charges anyway. That's what looking up formulae is usually there for, avoiding 'over-grinding' and accidentally hoarding way too much ingredients.

And I find it hard to imagine that gathering or 'grinding' for ingredients once in a while (when the multiple charges per potion are actually used up) would have made up the lion's share of the 200+ hours the game supposedly has to offer or would have kept you from focusing on other things that are there to do.

you literally read my mind ! hats off to you sir (or madam ?) :hatsoff:

 

[Assalander]

and on top of that takes the actual experimentation (and fun part) out of the procedure.

I can understand your point of view but that part is just not true (as far as I know), as you still need to discover the formula (either in the world or through experimentation) before brewing your auto-refilling potion.

Then about Geralt barely using any potion in the books... he barely uses any sign either. And he carries only one sword. Those are just stuff CDPR introduced in the games for gameplay variety. I guess you can make the ancient Geralt, taking only sword skills and barely using potions and signs if you want. But you can also make him a true spellsword of sort or a master alchemist, and in the latter case since it's your main strength you will probably want to use potions, oils and bombs very often, if not most of the time, in which case the amount of ingredient gathering could prove substential. Some enjoy it, others don't, would have been great if optional just like fast travel, with the option to auto-refill things or not.

 

[val.mitev]

Probably the worst thing is that CDPR's actual goal for this new system is deeply flawed. They wanted people to use alchemy and potions on a bigger scale. But why? Following the lore and the previous games Geralt only uses potions when he knows that he will face extreme dangers and very deadly monsters. He knows that his potions are highly toxix so he tries to minimize their usage. He never drinks any potions when fighting against humans in the books for example. He never drinks any potion if there is a surprising encounter. The only occasion when he drinks potions is when he is on the hunt for monsters or facing extreme dangers. The system in Witcher 3 is a radical change from that philosophy in favor of a completely generic fantasy approach aka "drinking a bunch of potions in every fight" which not only leads to alchemy and potions losing their strength and meaning as "weapons of last resort" but also to pointless and tedious ingredient grinding and a general lack of immersion...

Sorry, guys, but imo just bad design. And so SO unnecessary...

Since he hardly drinks any potions and uses any signs in the books, why not just scrap them from the game? It will be more true to the books that way, right?

Lore should be used as a guideline and a set of rules that need to be bent when needed for the sake of gameplay, because gameplay is the most important thing in a game, otherwise it is very likely to end up with a boring and not balanced game full of grinding and not fun to play at all.
What is the point of creating a very true to the books game, that turns out is not fun to play, what if those true to lore mechanics just don't work well in a video game and are just a pain in the ass to use?

Auto refill and drinking during combat is one way of addressing things that could work very well. You have your preferences, but there's no proof that it's bad. We'll be able to determine that when the game lands.

The lack of a drinking animation is not a big deal as well, it doesn't change much of the flow of the game, unless the animation is long and Geralt just stands like an idiot drinking for a solid few seconds.
If the drinking animation is a quick gulp that takes up to a second, it's not a big deal if it's missing, it would be a nice detail to have of course, but in no way it is breaking the system.

 

[thislsmadness]

A real shame that 'most gamers' seem to be the target audience for CDPR these days.

Yeah, its a real shame they want to make games that lots of people will enjoy.

 

[moonknightgog]

Yeah, its a real shame they want to make games that lots of people will enjoy.

A lot of people...except who played the previous two games.

 

[EliHarel]

Yeah, its a real shame they want to make games that lots of people will enjoy.

Hey, don't you take away people's sense of elitism. Don't you know that "niche" necessarily means "better"?

 

[Ljesnjanin]

It doesn't really matter at this point, but I always thought that W1+W2 combo alchemy would be fine...

Alcohol as base, additional substances from W1 ;
Geralt can use potions in meditation only from W2

Meh...Notthing we can do about it...

 

[thislsmadness]

Hey, don't you take away people's sense of elitism. Don't you know that "niche" necessarily means "better"?

I'm sure nothing I say can take that away... :troll:

A lot of people...except who played the previous two games.

Speak for yourself. I played the shit out of the previous games and I'm very excited with what looks to be their largest and most ambitious game ever, I get the same impression from most folks here. That doesnt mean I'm happy with every change they've made -- I still don't know if I'll like these alchemy changes but I'm willing to give it a shot. However, I'm also not dismissing the entirety of the incredible work they've done because every single aspect isn't to my personal liking. The budget for this game is massive and I'm certainly not covering it myself, so I have no expectation that the entire design revolves around me.

 

[schinderhannes.999]

you literally read my mind ! hats off to you sir (or madam ?)

You're welcome.
Neither sir nor madam by the way, just a sad romantic old fuck, as it stands.

I can understand your point of view but that part is just not true (as far as I know), as you still need to discover the formula (either in the world or through experimentation) before brewing your auto-refilling potion.

Then about Geralt barely using any potion in the books... he barely uses any sign either. And he carries only one sword. Those are just stuff CDPR introduced in the games for gameplay variety. I guess you can make the ancient Geralt, taking only sword skills and barely using potions and signs if you want. But you can also make him a true spellsword of sort or a master alchemist, and in the latter case since it's your main strength you will probably want to use potions, oils and bombs very often, if not most of the time, in which case the amount of ingredient gathering could prove substential. Some enjoy it, others don't, would have been great if optional just like fast travel, with the option to auto-refill things or not.

Like mentioned, there are numerous suggestions and solutions to how some of the main issues could have been effectively countered and resolved, like significantly upping the amount of charges per potion or make it so that subsequently repleneshing empty potions/potion charges would have required only a fraction of the amount of ingredients required for creating the potions for the first time.

The funny (or now rather sad) thing is, that CDPR already had an alchemy system including some of these approaches or solutions and no auto-refilling in place at one point, but for whatever (stupid) reason decided that it apparently was still not simple and convenient enough for 'most gamers'.

Yeah, its a real shame they want to make games that lots of people will enjoy.

'Most gamers' (notice the quotes) =/= most gamers.

Apologies, if I didn't make the point clear enough.
What I was trying to say is that it's of course perfectly fine and reasonable to make a game accessible to as many different types of gamers as possible. But not at the cost of removing or unnecessarily streamlining certain established mechanics or features a decent chunk of the core audience cares about and has every right to point out, especially if it's forced ('for the greater good') and leaves you with no other alternative to opt for instead.

No need to pull the elitism card.
It's just a part of the audience that would've appreciated having a choice or an option on the matter, is all.

 

[dragonbird]

'Most gamers' (notice the quotes) =/= most gamers.

Apologies, if I didn't make the point clear enough.
What I was trying to say is that it's of course perfectly fine and reasonable to make a game accessible to as many different types of gamers as possible. But not at the cost of removing or unnecessarily streamlining certain established mechanics or features a decent chunk of the core audience cares about and has a every right to point out, especially if it's forced ('for the greater good') and leaves you with no other alternative to opt for instead.

No need to pull the elitism card.
It's just a part of the audience that would've appreciated having a choice or an option on the matter, is all.

As you say, a part of the audience, and "people who don't like the new alchemy" is not necessarily "a decent chunk of the core audience".
So, while you're welcome to post your discontent on the new system as much as you want, it's probably for the best if you and others do NOT stray into claiming that your views on this represent any larger group, whether it be those who played the earlier games, or a "core audience" (whatever that is), or anything other than the your own views. I don't think it's in anyone's interest for this thread to suddenly inflate into a debate on whose views have more validity.

 

[thislsmadness]

'Most gamers' (notice the quotes) =/= most gamers.

Apologies, if I didn't make the point clear enough.
What I was trying to say is that it's of course perfectly fine and reasonable to make a game accessible to as many different types of gamers as possible. But not at the cost of removing or unnecessarily streamlining certain established mechanics or features a decent chunk of the core audience cares about and has a every right to point out, especially if it's forced ('for the greater good') and leaves you with no other alternative to opt for instead.

No need to pull the elitism card.
It's just a part of the audience that would've appreciated having a choice or an option on the matter, is all.

My bad, I didn't realize you were talking in code. And yes, you have every right to point out your opinion that these changes are unnecessary and I'm sure they appreciate the feedback. I'm also willing to bet that they very much disagree with you. That doesn't mean that they don't care about the few hundred people that voted No in this poll, it just means they have a different vision for this aspect of the game.

 

[val.mitev]

Like mentioned, there are numerous suggestions and solutions to how some of the main issues could have been effectively countered and resolved, like significantly upping the amount of charges per potion or make it so that subsequently repleneshing empty potions/potion charges would have required only a fraction of the amount of ingredients required for creating the potions for the first time.

But here's the thing, we speculate what could be better or how this or that could 'fix' the system, but we don't know how it fits in the game as a whole.

I'm sure CDPR read the opinions and evaluate them, I think that they have considered similar ideas a long time ago when designing the system, so what some people may consider broken in reality it might not be.
Or maybe even the 'fixed' system when implemented in the game could cause more problems in terms of balance, grinding or general fun factor.

We don't know that for now, but it will be very clear soon. Unfortunately the youtubers didn't have enough time to get deep into the game mechanics, only Gopher and one of the polish ones, seemed to have provided explanation of the game systems, the others were just playing around so not very informative in this regard.

 

[EliHarel]

No need to pull the elitism card.
It's just a part of the audience that would've appreciated having a choice or an option on the matter, is all.

I dislike it when people attack certain systems by obnoxiously stating how they're for newbs, people who don't give a shit about the games and lore, that they're dumbing down the game for the sake of masses, and other very general statements of that sort.

I'm not bothered by the removal of herb gathering after the initial brewing of a certain level of a potion. I'm replaying TW1 and TW2 recently and the constant clicking on corpses and bushes is something I could do without when playing for over a hundred hours, while still wanting to enjoy potions. The auto-refill mechanic might be something I enjoy. Might. I'll wait and see. According to Scholdarr, this makes me a:

noobie who don't give a shit or don't know anything about the franchise and its world.

Also, according to you, it's a real shame that I'm the target audience of CDPR these days.

Hence the elitism remark.

People can dislike stuff, but this thread has a few too many comments of the above sort, where people who dislike this new system try to depict themselves as the true fans, the core audience, etc, etc, while anyone who might enjoy this abomination, God forbid, is a casual, a noob, or other gaming terms I find embarrassing that people still use.

I love TW1 and TW2. There were things in them I disliked. Even TW1's alchemy, which is so often romanticized here as perfect. I'm approaching TW3 with an open mind, interested in what changes CDPR did, and I'll form my opinion once I play their game and see how the balance holds from beginning till the end. No game mechanic in the previous games is sacred in my opinion and not every change means dumbing down (a phrase I think is totally abused, by the way).

Normally I stay away from this thread because at over 100 pages I'm pretty sure it ran its course, but since there are plenty of posts here that take the liberty of speaking on behalf of others, I feel a need to balance that a bit. I'm not sure if I qualify for that prestigious club of core fans, and lately I don't think I even want to, but as a person who enjoyed the previous game, I'm cautiously optimistic about their changes to alchemy and I'm curious to try out what CDPR did with their game in this aspect (and many others).