But is it sloppy writing/implementation (aka a fault with the game) or a precise design choice...?
But is it sloppy writing/implementation (aka a fault with the game) or a precise design choice...?
I love how OP Ciri is sometimesEmpress (or heir to an Empire), Princess, savior of the universe, Witcher (and the fulfillment of their prophecy), Lady of Time and Space, Child of the Elderblood, descendant of Lara Dorren... the list goes on!
And yet she's still one of the most complex, interesting and relatable characters I've ever come across.
I think she avoids being insufferable because these are BURDENS and ANNOYANCES rather than things she wants to be.
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I don't think Emhyr is capable of being non-manipulative.
Exactly, she doesn't want to be any of those things (except a witcher of course), and they've caused her nothing but hardship and pain really. In this case, being the chosen one is anything but a good thing for the person themself.
Well I guess that's one way to completely brush aside a valid point.
If you compare Witcher 3's storytelling to one of the most basic video game narrative standard out there then yes it's basically Goethe. I think that's a really messed up way to excuse Witcher 3's narrative shortcomings or you would've acknowledged that there's some truth to his statement. I'm not here to slam the game or condemn the writers, but to point out that there's A LOT of work they need to do to create a holistic and satisfying story.
I enjoy analyzing stories and digging deep, a fact that should be obvious with my post count since finishing Witcher 3, but I find it very difficult to find conclusive interpretations based on clues, hints and deliberately placed crumbs in Witcher 3. The game is a stand-alone story and while it borrows heavily from book lore, there are plenty of omissions and changes to force us to see this game in a different light.
Based on the game, the empress ending is shown to be the best outcome. The game itself doesn't give you a reason to doubt a possible "happily every after" ending for Empress Ciri. I don't agree with it, but that's my own personal bias and feelings after having read the books. I know that the Witcher-verse isn't that simplistic, but the game doesn't acknowledge or remind you of that. It's left up to you to fill in the blanks.
Two things:
1. Witcher 3 relies on the extensive book lore as a starting point for the characters which gives them a lot of baggage and backstory to draw from to give them those "subtle expressions".
2. Just because the technology is finally allowing rudimentary emotive animations doesn't mean that's deep storytelling. It's another tool to be used to convey meaning.
I just think that people need to separate what Witcher lore has established with what Witcher 3 does with it. Witcher 3 has some fantastic side quests, but the complicated main story and central cast suffer from narrative neglect in many areas. Something that's reflected in the myriad of threads here and on reddit where people are discussing it.
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@Willowhugger I just meant that, deep down, he does care for her, and I don't necesarrily think he'd force her to become Empress by manipulating her. Take the Witcher ending for example; I get a very strong impression that he knew full well that Geralt was lying about Ciri being dead, but realised that she's chosen her path.
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I believe it's the former. I have also noticed this while playing and got frustrated as the player. I did not want my Geralt to act the way he did after certain dialogue choices. It's not a matter of "oh wow that went south quick" but more like "this is not at all what the dialogue choice suggested would happen". It's jarring with no chance to correct the course once you finally understand where Geralt is then taking you. The intention is lost.
I think it's important to avoid throwing around hyperbole. The Witcher games have put more thought into their world-building, story, and game-development than just about every single other franchise currently on the market. About the only comparable ones by Bioware and Microsoft are still pretty shallow by comparison and fail miserably in terms of emotional and character development. The Witcher 3 has some serious flaws but I felt more moved by Ciri and Geralt hugging than I have felt moved by anything else I've ever done in gaming. So, yeah, I find the statement of "The Witcher 3 is shallow and bad storytelling" a laughable assertion.
I may be biased, though, since I wrote a four part essay on its politics.
Do they? I think it's an impressive achievement even if I think they could have gone even further. It's an incredibly in-depth story with dozens of important narrative characters and situations to parce.
I also think this assertion is really-really bizarre as it requires you to view the game as having treated its players as complete morons. The Empress ending is portrayed as "the best outcome" only if you ignore the fact Nilfgaard has left Velen a ruin, destroyed villages, invaded the North, and engaged in numerous other atrocities throughout the games. It requires the player to ignore that Ciri states she wants a normal life in her mandatory quest and that she is someone who doesn't like pomp, ceremony, or being manipulated.
In short, it requires you to be overlook all of the world building and character development to walk away thinking, "Yeah, this is the best ending."
I don't think many gamers are that dense.
I think the Witcher 3 did a more or less decent job establishing all the characters independently of the books. I've met many people who love Ciri and Yennefer despite not having their backstory to draw from.
I would be interested in a longer response from you saying what you think the books would require Ciri and Yennefer to act like. I presume, of course, the Empress ending being either impossible or much harder to get.
Which I don't disagree with, I just point out is not unambiguously good by the way its portrayed.
Source attribution errors are very easy to induce in people. I also thought that Emhyr had said something like that and it wasn't until I typed out the dialogue for that particular post that I realized, "Wait, did that ever actually happen?" Sneaky devs strike again!
Something else to think about: a whole bunch of people instinctively want to cut Emhyr a lot of slack. I'm one of these: he's such a great character, lots of cool lines, totally believable. We get sucked in by the aura of power he projects and how completely unfazed he is by Geralt's badassness. We project our own feelings onto Emhyr: "Yes, Emhyr has launched an unprovoked war of aggression, involving the murder of our old boss, the imprisonment and torture of our girlfriend, the deaths of tens of thousands of people, widespread devastation, the betrayal of his most trusted advisors and agents, etc., but given how wonderful Ciri is surely Emhyr would never do anything bad to her."
If you've ever wondered why millions of people end up going along with Really Bad Leaders, this game is an excellent simulation of how that happens. Compare Emhyr to Whoreson Junior: nobody wants to defend him at all, even though objectively he's killed fewer people, made a much smaller mess. Nobody on these forums would ever say, "Junior wasn't that bad a guy, he's just misunderstood. He's pretty much just like the other gangsters." The difference is that Junior lacks the aura of power, Emhyr's regal bearing which compels people, even the players, to respect him and give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what bad stuff he does.
Obedience to authority, people. It can really mess with your head!
I really don't think so. Is there a single moment, a single comment, anything at all that suggests he cares about her as a daughter/as a person?
But are you even supposed to have that degree of control over Geralt?
Much like the 5 minor events leading directly to Ciri's fate with no way past meta-gaming to directly "choose" it, could be a beautiful testament both to Geralt's being an indipendent entity from the player, with all that entails, in the former, and he himself being at the mercy of the world around him, no matter his "protagonist" status or his abilities in the latter.
The fact he has a big huge portrait of his daughter in his office he stares at for hours at a time. I think Emhyr THINKS he loves his daughter but he is basically Phillip Strenger in that he doesn't know how to express love.
The Empire has WARPED him.
Maybe he don`t know how to express a love but refusing to help Kaer Morhen defence while Ciri is in danger and trying to kill her friends on Skellige is not love at all.
Yeah, I think that's the tragedy of King Emhyr. He wants to love Ciri and show his affection.
But that is his character in a nutshell.
"What does my daughter like?"
"She loves the nation of Skellige."
"Okay, go conquer that. She can be Queen of it."
No it's not just spread, a LOT of details are missing, a lot of things are not explained and a lot of things just don't make bloody sense. Trying to convince me that the story is good because of the moments between Geralt and Ciri is not gonna work, because even though those moments might be good they do not make the story more cohesive, logical or better written then it actually is.
As for what a lot of gamers would want, a lot of gamers don't give a damn about story to begin with but that doesn't make the shallow tale TW3 spun any better when it comes the Empress situation or politics in general.
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@Zbotz The main thing I'm going on is the ending of the last book in the series, in which he sees her in tears and decides to let her, Geralt and Yennefer go.
I'm not sure, but I suspect the devs wanted to trick people into doing the "wrong" things sometimes so that the players can see all the work they put in to the drama of the "bad" outcomes. There's a lot of voice acting work and directing that would have gone to waste otherwise. We can see how much work they put into the empress ending and the soul-crushing "Ciri is AWOL" ending, for the former they had to add snow to an entire game zone! Ultimately the players can reload if they catch Geralt saying something they didn't intend and things start to go off the rails.
Oh, the whole "Ciri dies" thing is them ABSOLUTELY trying to trick you.
It also fits real-life psychology.
But where is
What my daughter love? Kaer Morhen and her friends there, ok then lets save them or
What my daughter hate? it`s Wild Hunt - so lets help her kill them, but we got instead
If general Vooris can`t be there you can all die i don`t care
@Willowhugger
You know, I'm just going to leave it. I've already been very clear about my stance (and more specific, since that was an issue for you) in previous threads, so you can go paruse my post history if you're still that curious. Your last post made it clear that you're heavily entrenched in your opinion and while I can respect that, it makes it difficult to have an interesting conversation if one side is unwilling to give an inch or even entertain the idea. Sorry, but that's not worth the effort and will likely just lead to grief which would be a shame.
I didn't come here to enforce an absolute view, merely state that there's serious shortcomings that hamper our ability to interpret and we should factor that into our theories. A view that wasn't represented yet. I've done my theorizing already and I still stand by it.
You know, I'm just going to leave it. I've already been very clear about my stance (and more specific, since that was an issue for you) in previous threads, so you can go paruse my post history if you're still that curious. Your last post made it clear that you're heavily entrenched in your opinion and while I can respect that, it makes it difficult to have an interesting conversation if one side is unwilling to give an inch or even entertain the idea. Sorry, but that's not worth the effort and will likely just lead to grief which would be a shame.
I didn't come here to enforce an absolute view, merely state that there's serious shortcomings that hamper our ability to interpret and we should factor that into our theories. A view that wasn't represented yet. I've done my theorizing already and I still stand by it.
@Zeroscape
If you think you're talking to a brick wall, I'm sorry. I'd like you to know that while I think the game is good, I also do believe it's flawed and I do think you've made many wonderful, insightful, and well-written posts on the subject. I enjoy reading your posts and want you to know that they don't fall on deaf ears. I apologize if I'm coming off as unreasonable.
That's not my intention.