[Major Spoilers] Why I believe relationship centered content to be central to improving the Witcher 3

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[Major Spoilers] Why I believe relationship centered content to be central to improving the Witcher 3

I posted this on reddit as well if you want to join the discussion there.


The Core of the Game

Despite this game being an open-world action RPG with all the trappings that that genre implies, this game is at it's core about relationships. Specifically about Geralt and his relationships to the people around him, his "family". This is easily one of the most personal games out there, despite it being full of politics, war, and monster slaying. We, as Geralt, get to be involved in other people's stories for a time and possibly shape how they end. It's so well done that it becomes frustrating later in the game when these relationships fade into the background. If this were a movie or a novel it would make sense as the plot must move ever forward. This isn't like a movie or a novel in that respect though. The plot can be paused so that we can explore and take in the world. It can be experienced in different ways in different orders or multiple paths. So when the relationships that Geralt, and the player, have taken all this time to build get stuck despite the rapidly changing world around them it feels like there's a hole that needs filling. I believe that these issues should be a major focus for CDPR before moving on to their next game.


Ciri

Thankfully, the central most relationship (Geralt and Ciri's) is also the most explored. That said, it isn't without some oddities: The choices that govern Ciri's fate feel a little trivial. They seem like small moments and decisions in between much larger moments and decisions. I get what the devs are going for here and I agree with them to an extent. I just think there needs to be more decisions that matter. Right now Ciri's fate rests on five decisions Geralt must make in the game:

1. You have to have a snowball fight with Ciri.
2. You have to refuse payment from Emhyr
3. You have to let Ciri talk to the Lodge on her own.
4. You have to let Ciri ransack Avallac'h's laboratory
5. You have to help Ciri bury Skjall.

The choices you make lead to one of three endings:

1. Ciri is (possibly) dead, Geralt then kills himself by monster.
2. Ciri follows in her biological father's footsteps and becomes the Empress of Nilfgaard.
3. Ciri follows her adoptive father's (Geralt's) footsteps and becomes a Witcheress.

The only one I find a little strange is the decision to destroy Avallac'h's lab counting as a good decision. On the one hand I understand that the point of these decisions is to let Ciri be Ciri. On the other hand it seems like a small, petty, decision especially considering the effect it can have on the ending. It would be nice if, for example, helping the elves (during the "Payback" quest) steal the horses also counted positively to her fate. In fact, I believe most of Geralt's interactions with Ciri should count in one way or another. For instance, it would be nice if Geralt could lose the rock-paper-scissors game (or choose to let her go) and then Ciri could fight Imlerith herself (counting as another +1).

Another thing I want to bring up is the reason Geralt's decisions matter so much to Ciri. For someone as strong-willed as Ciri is it seems strange that what Geralt says to her would decide whether she dies or not. Having more instances where what he says counts helps but I believe it would be much better for her to feel like she is alone right at the end. The strongest way this could be done is if Avallac'h betrays her for his own ends. This means that the only people left for her to trust right at the end is Geralt. This makes what Geralt says to her more important than ever in those final moments.


Romance

I've seen a lot of people mention that the romantic content is weirdly paced and doesn't have a proper pay-off in the last part of the game. These are some fantastically written characters and it really feels like one of the biggest choices we can make in the game. Unfortunately, the game has little reaction to this choice. If you choose Triss, she becomes little more than a background extra after the main Novigrad segment. A lot of the conflict that would be a natural consequence to such a choice is ignored. While, Yennefer is better represented in the last half of the game she is barely present for the first half. Players start off with an unfair opinion of her because she seems quite cold towards Geralt at the beginning. The scenes in Vizima hint at a lot of the different colors of their relationship but we just don't have enough time to get used to her character.

There are a few ways to improve these issues. In Novigrad, Triss and Geralt could call Yen with a megascope for a status update. She could show a little bit of her softer side, even show a hint that she and Triss are/were friends. Some of the starting quests in Skellige could have their level requirements lowered. Later, a scene could play out where Yen and Triss confront each other. It even feels like the part in Kaer Morhen when Yennefer tosses the bed out the window is a good starting point for a confrontation:

1. Yen throws out the bed.

2. When we arrive Vesimir mentions it.

3. We go to the bed in the courtyard and Triss is standing next to it. Cue conversation.

4. We confront Yen and she teleports you to the lake outside.

5. You return and Triss is there this time and the argument starts.


Pieces of the argument could differ depending on who you romanced but no matter who you romanced I feel like this kind of confrontation could still happen.

It would be nice to see Ciri react to Geralt's choice and bring it up at some point. Triss is like a sister to her and (if you romance Triss) Geralt and Yen become like an ex-husband/wife, that has to affect her in some way. I also would like to see some scenes between characters that don't really share scenes. I would love to see Yen and Ciri have more mother/daughter time, or Yen and Triss try to reconcile their differences, or Ciri and Triss share a moment. These characters are all closely linked and we only get hints towards this in the game.

Finally, an extended epilogue (even if it's just a small scene in Dandelion's inn) would allow fans to say goodbye to many of these characters since this is probably the last time we'll see them in any major capacity. There are also questions left unanswered as to the fate of some these characters. What happens to Triss if you go with Yen or Yen if you choose Triss? What happens to Dandelion, Zoltan, or Priscilla?


Eredin and Other Antagonists

I'll be honest, I don't really know how some of the antagonists can be improved here. This is where a more extensive book knowledge might really help. I do know, though, that the antagonists are barely developed in this game. A good villain has a strong antagonistic relationship with the protagonist and the Hunt seems to have an inherent connection to Ciri, Geralt, and Yennefer that has been hinted from the two previous games and the books. Unfortunately, it's barely explored. Eredin is an imposing figure and has a lot of potential but it feels like there are motivations there that aren't strongly established. Does he want to bring his people to this world and conquer humanity? What's at stake for him if he fails? What did Geralt do while he was with the Hunt? What does Ge'els want? How does Avallac'h have such a large change of heart from the books to this game? Avallac'h briefly talks about Caranthir being his protege but we don't get any dialogue between them or anything further development of that relationship. We have very little context for these characters and if CDPR can fill out these characters and how they relate to each other it will help fix some of the issues with the plot in the third act.

We also have characters like Djikstra, who seems to have a grudging friendship building with Geralt, take a sudden left turn in the "Reasons of State" quest and betray a bunch of people close to Geralt. This is presented to the player as a choice but considering our relationship to him versus our relationship to the others we would have to let die (Roche, Thaler, and Ves) it's not a hard one. In the end it feels like a contrivance to further the plot rather than stay true to the characters or even CDPR's intentions with player choice. Other characters like Francis Bedlam and Cleaver just seem to disappear when it seemed like they would be playing a large role in the endgame.


Conclusion

I know this is a popular topic for discussion and some of you might be sick of seeing posts like this, but we see them because what we have in the game resonates with a lot of people. I love this game. I wouldn't be writing this wall of text if I didn't already believe in this game and it's developers. It is absolutely one of my favorites but it is not my all-time favorite YET.

I want to draw to people's attention to the fact that CDPR have said that they have no plans for an Enhanced Edition at the moment and I think the community needs to continue/renew calls for one. If you guys want this let CDPR know, even if, in the end, all our complaints can't be fixed. I think we would all love to see CDPR properly payoff the story they have so expertly crafted.​
 
...Yeap this pretty much sums up most of the issues people have been flagging around here. Pretty much agree with all your points there...CDPR missed on a lot of opportunities to make this game really shine..the main narrative should have been granted a lot more attention as opposed to filling the maps with cute but somewhat redundant side-stuff...they could have always added additional side quests as DLC etc. after making sure their main plot was sound..sadly, that wasn't the case..didn't get my Wild Hunt fix .. :p

EDIT: slides in the epilogue just don't cut it for Geralt's last chapter.
 
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Yeah, I completely agree.

We also have characters like Djikstra, who seems to have a grudging friendship building with Geralt, take a sudden left turn in the "Reasons of State" quest and betray a bunch of people close to Geralt. This is presented to the player as a choice but considering our relationship to him versus our relationship to the others we would have to let die (Roche, Thaler, and Ves) it's not a hard one. In the end it feels like a contrivance to further the plot rather than stay true to the characters or even CDPR's intentions with player choice. Other characters like Francis Bedlam and Cleaver just seem to disappear when it seemed like they would be playing a large role in the endgame.

Eh, I chose Dijkstra because of the monumental nature of the betrayal by Roche. Of course, the game doesn't seem to recognize you may be ardently Pro-Nilfgaard (or at least anti-Emhyr). I think the game also didn't justify why Dijkstra would kill Thaler and Roche within the game.

You have to speculate why.
 
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This is a really excellent post, it eloquently and comprehensively describes the main issues that many players have with what is otherwise (in my opinion) a narrative masterpiece, and an absolutely phenomenal game. I think it's worth emphasising that we are not disregarding the time, resources and love that went into creating the final chapter of Geralt's story; on the contrary, it is a true testament to the sheer quality of CDPR's work, because it is utterly deserving of our passion and investment.

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I will say this though, if CDPR did decide to augment the character interactions in this game, some changes would be more feasible than others. Additional dialogue would be easier to implement than any changes to the story itself, for example (though I'm guessing even that comes with its own complications). Ultimately it's entirely at their discretion, and is dependant on the various practicalities that responding to this feedback would entail. Whatever happens though, they have earned my full respect, and I'm sure they will take our comments on board even if they can't necessarily act on them to the degree we would like.
 
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Regarding Eredin and the wild hunt:

In the books characters sometimes had dreams of ongoing events. Geralt simply having a dream of a conversation between the wild hunt generals would be pretty interesting.

Another way could be Avallac'h telling some of his history with the members of the hunt (in a similiar way to how it was done by the Baron regarding Ciri) where you get to actually see it ingame.
 
Regarding Eredin:

I would do a few things to make him better. After all, he had 2 games hyping him up for this shit.

As somebody else said, a dream is a great idea that doesn't alter the story structure much.

Three simple things:

1) Have Geralt talk to Eredin in a dream while he is sleeping after the Battle of Kaer Morhen. Perfect time to have it too.

2) Have Geralt meet Eredin's projection again like he did in The Witcher 1. This could be added in "Through Time and Space" somewhere.

3) A more dramatic death for Eredin where he actually makes us feel sorry for him and he seems relatable. Him talking about how he failed his people, etc.

This would be 10 times better than the 12 lines he currently has.
 
My version?

You fight Eredin multiple times

1. With Keira Metz in the Elven Ruins, with a conversation beforehand. He escapes.

2. In Kaer Morhen, with a conversation beforehand, before the cutscene where everyone is frozen. He escapes again.

3. You can actually talk with Imerlith before you kill him at the Sabbath.

4.You get an interactive cutscene where you PLAY Eredin poisoning the King, like playing Prince Stennis in the meeting with Henselt.

5. You can talk with Eredin before you kill him on the boat.
 
Finally, an extended epilogue (even if it's just a small scene in Dandelion's inn) would allow fans to say goodbye to many of these characters since this is probably the last time we'll see them in any major capacity. There are also questions left unanswered as to the fate of some these characters. What happens to Triss if you go with Yen or Yen if you choose Triss? What happens to Dandelion, Zoltan, or Priscilla?

I think, for me personally, that was something I really missed about the game's ending. It was beautifully done, but unfortunately we didn't get the opportunity to see many of the characters for one last time, to say goodbye (not literally for Geralt, but for us as the player). Take the Witcher epilogue as the prime example; where you do at least get to see your love interest alongside Dandelion and Zoltan in the Empress ending (albeit briefly), the only main characters you encounter here are the Emperor and Ciri.

In that regard, you aren't given the level of closure to the other characters you would expect, and that's such a massive shame when you take into account that this is the finale of a journey that has spanned across several books and games. When a story draws you in like this one, when you become so invested in the characters and the relationships, when the standards of the narrative are so high, you really do notice this.
 
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Regarding Eredin:

I would do a few things to make him better. After all, he had 2 games hyping him up for this shit.

As somebody else said, a dream is a great idea that doesn't alter the story structure much.

Three simple things:

1) Have Geralt talk to Eredin in a dream while he is sleeping after the Battle of Kaer Morhen. Perfect time to have it too.

2) Have Geralt meet Eredin's projection again like he did in The Witcher 1. This could be added in "Through Time and Space" somewhere.

3) A more dramatic death for Eredin where he actually makes us feel sorry for him and he seems relatable. Him talking about how he failed his people, etc.

This would be 10 times better than the 12 lines he currently has.

Personally I don't like 3 and the idea of having Geralt talk to Eredin in a dream isn't my cup of tea - but 2 would seem like a very good idea and make a clearer link to the first game. Would be nice for those who have forgotten certain events after all those years. And yeah it's a good opportunity for a nice little chat at some point of the game - maybe "Through Time and Space", why not.
 
Agreed. I can live with the flaws the end-game story had, and I really liked the ending overall (got the Witcher ending). But my biggest problem is the lack of an emotional closing.

For example, Yen who's one of the most important characters in the game doesn't even appear after the "I'm ok Geralt, go and come back with Ciri." ordeal at Avallach's barrier. And I don't know how it is with Triss if you romance her, but I'm guessing you still don't even get to talk to her after you get to end-game Skellige. That's no suitable goodbye to their characters at all. And we don't get to know what happened to Zoltan, Dandelion, Philippa and the rest of the Lodge. There is just so much that was left unanswered and overall not satisfying.

I feel like a DLC like Citadel DLC from Mass Effect 3 should be in order, now that was a proper goodbye to the characters in it. Though it doesn't take place after the ending, it is a thing for people to play it after the ending just because of how satisfying it is. This, in The Witcher 3 would be great. It doesn't necessarily have to be like Citadel, but as long as we get one that focuses on post-game character interaction I am 100% satisfied.
 
Regarding Eredin:

I would do a few things to make him better. After all, he had 2 games hyping him up for this shit.

As somebody else said, a dream is a great idea that doesn't alter the story structure much.

Three simple things:

1) Have Geralt talk to Eredin in a dream while he is sleeping after the Battle of Kaer Morhen. Perfect time to have it too.

2) Have Geralt meet Eredin's projection again like he did in The Witcher 1. This could be added in "Through Time and Space" somewhere.

3) A more dramatic death for Eredin where he actually makes us feel sorry for him and he seems relatable. Him talking about how he failed his people, etc.

This would be 10 times better than the 12 lines he currently has.

I like these suggestions. The game starts with a dream and Geralt and Ciri tell each other about the dreams they've been having when they meet. It would be cool to see more spread at a few points in the game, one of which could have involve Eredin. It would even be cool to have an exchange between Ciri and Eredin (either through a dream or a projection) during one of her segments.

Right before the boss fight at the end of "Wandering in the Dark" might be another place to put an exchange between Eredin and Geralt.

There could also be a point at which, when Geralt is wandering around the world at night, you see spectres of the Wild Hunt riding across the sky. Geralt might even want to chase after it until it disappears.

Eredin is set up to have his own point of view in the story it just never really gets expanded upon. I mean, are humans really better than him? If humans continue in the world they will use up all of the resources and the elves on their world will go extinct. Elves seem more in tune with nature and conscious of the resources they use. If Eredin invades the world non-humans could be saved from persecution, though humans will undoubtedly be persecuted. Maybe in "Through Time and Space" Geralt sees another world that humans lived on before and had completely stripped of all it's resources.

What do the Aen Seidhe think of this? Maybe Eredin tries to enlist them to help him. Hell, that could be a good way to bring Iorveth into the story.

There are really a lot of ways it could be improved.
 
Geralt traveled with the Wild Hunt for a pretty long time, he doesn't remember all of it but somehow still remembers Imlerith from his time with them.
A conversation with Imlerith should refresh his memory about his time with them. There's definitely a place for it as someone here mentioned.
I imagine Geralt had to do a lot of questionable things during his time with the Hunt and I also imagine he had little choice. When I heard Geralt was a rider I had to wonder if he was himself during his time with them. I think some playable flashbacks could give us a fully realized antagonist and villains. I think I read some where flashbacks with them were cut from the game.
Ciri rescuing him from them would also be interesting to see.

Assuming of course CDPR chooses to do some damage control.
 
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Geralt traveled with the Wild Hunt for a pretty long time, he doesn't remember all of it but somehow still remembers Imlerith from his time with them.
A conversation with Imlerith should refresh his memory about his time with them. There's definitely a place for it as someone here mentioned.
I imagine Geralt had to do a lot of questionable things during his time with the Hunt and I also imagine he had little choice. When I heard Geralt was a rider I had to wonder if he was himself during his time with them. I think some playable flashbacks could give us a fully realized antagonist and villains. I think I read some where flashbacks with them were cut from the game.
Ciri rescuing him from them would also be interesting to see.

Assuming of course CDPR chooses to do some damage control.

I've wondered about that too. It's strange we never really get any info about his time with the Hunt.
 
Another thing I want to bring up is the reason Geralt's decisions matter so much to Ciri. For someone as strong-willed as Ciri is it seems strange that what Geralt says to her would decide whether she dies or not. Having more instances where what he says counts helps but I believe it would be much better for her to feel like she is alone right at the end.
The worse conclusion from excessive importance of Geralt's decisions for Ciri is that the game show Ciri not as a strong-willed character but a weak-willed. Strong-willed people do not require confirmation or approval of their parents to act no matter how good intentions of their parents are. If Ciri were shown strong-willed then, for example, she would have trashed Avallac'h's lab regardless of Geralt's opinion, the difference would have been only whether she would become annoyed by Geralt's patronizing or excited that he supported her, but she would have made the decision to trash the lab herself without looking for Geralt to solve her problems.
 
The worse conclusion from excessive importance of Geralt's decisions for Ciri is that the game show Ciri not as a strong-willed character but a weak-willed. Strong-willed people do not require confirmation or approval of their parents to act no matter how good intentions of their parents are. If Ciri were shown strong-willed then, for example, she would have trashed Avallac'h's lab regardless of Geralt's opinion, the difference would have been only whether she would become annoyed by Geralt's patronizing or excited that he supported her, but she would have made the decision to trash the lab herself without looking for Geralt to solve her problems.

It shows Ciri as strong willed but EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE. She's also suicidal, which you may say makes her weak-willed but I prefer to think of traumatized.

The reasons for this aren't really gotten into by the game but she really does think if she dies fighting the White Frost, she'll be making things better for Geralt and Yennefer.

She has VERY low self-esteem after Vesmir dies protecting her.

She can get over that by defeating the White Frost.

It's a right of passage story.
 
It shows Ciri as strong willed but EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE.
Ehm... well... she cannot be strong-willed if she look for Geralt's input by definition of the word strong-willed:

adjective: strong-willed

determined to do as one wants even if other people advise against it.


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And no, Ciri is not emotionally vulnerable because emotionally vulnerable person ... is insecure, lacks confidence in their own value, and one or more of their capabilities, lacks trust in themselves or others, or has fears that a present positive state as temporary, and will let them down and cause them loss or distress by "going wrong" in the future.
So, no, it's not about Ciri.
 
Well she's strong willed determined and suicidal with low-self esteem.

They're not contradictory.

Ciri can defeat gods and monsters and move mountains when she has her mind set on it but is prone to deep depression as well as belief she's a burden on her family.
 
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