Witcher 3 and the possibility of DX12 and Vulkan support post release

[zorba1138]

Aside from specific areas/places, TW3 is not CPU intensive in the first place so the 'benefit' from DX12 would be minimal. I find that to be quite... shocking, the CPU performance is phenomenal. It won't magically give you more frames if it's not bottlenecked in the first place, so certain places, like areas of Novigrad there might be benefits but otherwise as far as I can see there will be no difference worth note.

Eh? what does DX12 have to do with the game being CPU intensive or not? DX12 drastically reduces the overhead needed to make draw calls it's not about solving a hardware bottleneck, but a software one...

The CPU overhead in draw calls has nothing to do with how fast or under how much load the CPU is it's about the round trip for each call think about it as DMA do you want to wager how long it will take you to copy a file if you still needed to make a CPU call for every byte written to disk from memory or vise versa?

Even in single threaded API applications DX12 can cut down the frame latency by 50% under conservative reservations that's quite huge.

P.S. while W3 isn't CPU intensive as you claim (it's just doesn't multi-thread well which is odd especially since it's a console game as well) it sure isn't GPU bottle necked, you can see that reducing allot of settings doesn't do much to increase performance in high end graphics card and if you run DX profile query's on the game while you'll see just how long does it have to wait for CPU or cache look ups.

With Titan X's in SLI @ 4K i get 7-8ms CPU "jerk" time out of 16-18ms average frame draw latency, W3 still insists on streaming textures from in memory and worse on disk cache even when the GPU has over 9GB VRAM free and the system has 56GB of free RAM.

The PC build seems to be still pretty much set up for a console profile so the actual memory usage is very conservative for no reason...

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Eh? what does DX12 have to do with the game being CPU intensive or not? DX12 drastically reduces the overhead needed to make draw calls it's not about solving a hardware bottleneck, but a software one...

That's not the main benefit. The main benefit of new APIs is an ability to feed GPU with command streams as fast as GPU can handle it. I.e. in parallel, which didn't happen with older APIs. That requires using multiple queues from multiple threads.

Here is how one queue would look (and there are multiple queues per GPU):

https://www.khronos.org/vulkan

DX12 and Metal do the same thing - they took most of the ideas from Mantle (which is Vulkan now). There is even an anecdotal match of documentation which looks like 1:1 copying with very minimal tweaks.

 

[zorba1138]

That's not the main benefit. The main benefit of new APIs is an ability to feed GPU with command streams as fast as GPU can handle it. I.e. in parallel, which didn't happen with older APIs. That requires using multiple queues from multiple threads.

Here is how one queue would look (and there are multiple queues per GPU):

https://www.khronos.org/vulkan

DX12 and Metal do the same thing - they took most of the ideas from Mantle (which is Vulkan now). There is even an anecdotal match of documentation which looks like 1:1 copying with very minimal tweaks.

That's not exactly correct, Command Queue's exist in DX11 and DX10 multi-thread profiles as well, DX12 improves on it by adding certain features like Command Lists which allows you to populate the queue with higher level abstracted items (these sorta exist in DX11) and bundles which are probably the more interesting feature as they allow for inheritance, reuse and more importantly state reinitialization(e.g. instead of having a DX11 command stream or a DX12 command list wihch store the instructions to render 2 characters with different texture you can make 1 bundle which has the instruction to draw a character and run it twice with a different resource pointer), it also changes the entire model by introducing a PSO which unlike shared containers which existed until DX12 allows you to reference the entire render context under a single object and so on and son on...

I regardless of the command queue improvements, DX12 cuts down on the amount of CPU time needed to render a frame considerably by as much as 50-60% which mean that this shaves about 4-5ms at 60fps which is a 25-30% improvement without any profile specific optimizations even under single threaded conditions.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Earlier OpenGL also had something similar (http://www.geeks3d.com/20140321/opengl-approaching-zero-driver-overhead/), but it still didn't provide a straightforward way to saturate the GPU. Neither did DX11 really. Vulkan makes it pretty simple and with clean design.

 

[zorba1138]

Earlier OpenGL also had something similar (http://www.geeks3d.com/20140321/opengl-approaching-zero-driver-overhead/), but it still didn't provide a way to saturate the GPU. Neither did DX11 really. Vulkan makes it pretty straightforward.

Vulkan will go no where just like Mantle did, with Nvidia controlling nearly 80% of the discrete market it's not going to happen, and Khronos is probably worse at managing API development than the charlie foxtrot that was the ARB...

XboxOne and PS4 will continue to use their own API's Nvidia will continue to optimize it's drivers for DX and push gameworks to developers, the only one who seems to care about Vulkan atm is Gaben since he fears the day when MSFT decides to lockdown Windows and sell everything through an app store even if that day will never come.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Vulkan will go no where just like Mantle did

Vulkan will go everywhere, except what MS controls (i.e. Xbox) and PS4 will add Vulkan support if Sony isn't stupid. DX12 will go nowhere however, except same MS walled gardens. That's besides the point anyway because DX12 won't offer anything new on top of what Vulkan will offer. MS didn't even try to come up with new ideas, they just copied most of Mantle as is. Vulkan is at least developed collaboratively, and will get input from many parties.

the only one who seems to care about Vulkan atm is Gaben

You got that in reverse. Everyone cares about Vulkan except MS. It's easily visible from their glaring lack in the working group:

Note Sony in the list btw.

 

[zorba1138]

Vulkan will go everywhere, except what MS controls (i.e. Xbox) and PS4 will add Vulkan support if Sony isn't stupid. DX12 will go nowhere however, except same MS walled gardens. That's besides the point anyway because DX12 won't offer anything new on top of what Vulkan will offer. MS didn't even try to come up with new ideas, they just copied most of Mantle as is. Vulkan is at least developed collaboratively, and will get input from many parties.




You got that in reverse. Everyone cares about Vulkan except MS. It's easily visible from their glaring lack in the working group:

Note Sony in the list btw.

LoL these are the same people who were on board with OpenGL, you need to understand that Khronos like the ARB is a meet and greet where people share information develop ideas and connections.

ARB's sponsor list was about a mile long and where did OpenGL end up being? Sony will never add support for Vulkan they never supported anything but their own internal API and toolchain.

P.S.
EPIC said no Vulkan for UE4, they are sticking with OpenGL4.

Seriously man thanks for the laugh tho...

 

[sidspyker]

Both of you do realize this is supposed to be Witcher 3 related and not API General thread, yes?

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

ARB's sponsor list was about a mile long

This isn't sponsors - it's the working group which actually works on design of the API. So no-nonsese input only. It will be ready this year, and it won't be developed like OpenGL (i.e. dragging its feet).

Both of you do realize this is supposed to be Witcher 3 related and not API General thread, yes?

There isn't much to say about TW3 and new APIs so far specifically, since CDPR didn't comment on their further plans. So naturally it turns to APIs themselves I guess more details will be available later. Not sure what they are doing with the Linux version, but I suspect it's not going to be using Vulkan yet. But when it will come out (Vulkan), they definitely should consider switching REDengine to it.

 

[sidspyker]

There's another thread for general API talk Gilrond and you know that.

 

[mirakodus1]

The billowing smoke and roaring fire from the trailer? "It's a global system and it will kill PC because transparencies - without DirectX 12 it does't work good in every game." from this http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...he-witcher-3-graphics-downgrade-issue-head-on

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@mirakodus1: Sounds like they are saying that it's not a hardware but software limitation.

 

[DNMR2K5]

Aside from specific areas/places, TW3 is not CPU intensive in the first place so the 'benefit' from DX12 would be minimal. I find that to be quite... shocking, the CPU performance is phenomenal. It won't magically give you more frames if it's not bottlenecked in the first place, so certain places, like areas of Novigrad there might be benefits but otherwise as far as I can see there will be no difference worth note.

I have an AMD Phenom II 1055T x6 2.8 ghz + a Sapphire R9 290x and generally get 35-60 in the first area of the game, and that's with ultra @ 1440x900 (Save for Nvidia Hair) Would you say my system is bottle-necking?

I already have an AMD FX 9590 Vishera 4.7 ghz 220w 8 core beast sitting in my wishlist @ newegg so what do you think?....BTW, Is your avatar my twin brother?

 

[dusty-2011]

I have an AMD Phenom II 1055T x6 2.8 ghz + a Sapphire R9 290x and generally get 35-60 in the first area of the game, and that's with ultra @ 1440x900 (Save for Nvidia Hair) Would you say my system is bottle-necking?

I already have an AMD FX 9590 Vishera 4.7 ghz 220w 8 core beast sitting in my wishlist @ newegg so what do you think?....BTW, Is your avatar my twin brother?

You should upgrade to an i5-4960K instead. It's a much better processor for gaming. An AMD FX 9590 only slightly outperforms a dual core i3 processor in most games, and is a lot slower than an i5 processor.

 

[DNMR2K5]

You should upgrade to an i5-4960K instead. It's a much better processor for gaming. An AMD FX 9590 only slightly outperforms a dual core i3 processor in most games, and is a lot slower than an i5 processor.

Very true, but if I'm gonna go the i5 route I would bypass that and simply get an i7! ...(Future proofing and all..)

However, unless I make it big as a bitcoin miner I don't see myself getting that anytime soon! And yeah, the single reason why I'm an AMD consumer is due to the fact that I lack the scratch, as everyone knows that Intel/Nvidia is superior as far as performance is concerned!

Lol, I even have my dream intel Rig on my wishlists @ Newegg/Cyberpower PC!

 

[MooseOnFire]

The billowing smoke and roaring fire from the trailer? "It's a global system and it will kill PC because transparencies - without DirectX 12 it does't work good in every game." from this http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...he-witcher-3-graphics-downgrade-issue-head-on

I *think* there was also an additional blood spray effect when enemies were struck that was shown in pre-release footage but excluded from the final game because it didn't run well enough on DX11 (implying it did on DX12).

 

[dragonbird]

This is absolutely NOT the place for a prolonged general discussion on your personal preferences for API's. Some posts have just been deleted. Keep this about TW3 please.

 

[Tuco]

I was just talking with a friend about Windows 10 yesterday and we concluded that whoever is going to release a patch/title supporting DX12 soon after the OS releases is going to have some very easy media exposure.
A lot of people will be looking for a benchmark title to try the new tech, in the same way Crysis (1) became the "to go" purchase for a lot of people buying a new PC few years ago.

 

[GZulu]

Thanks for the advice, that makes sense. Games like The Last of Us & Tomb Raider are not open world games either. GTAV is.. and it looks damn good to me, I will be so happy and amazed, if CDPR can make TW3's graphics look better thanTomb Raider Remastered and GTAV on PS4. I think it will, from what I've seen so far TW3 is going to look at least as good, if not better than Ryse Son of Rome too. I'm so fucking stoked that CDPR Team Devs seem to care about art & graphics as much as they do the story and gameplay.
It's awesome to be around, to play this Trinity of a game in our life time. It feels great to be a gamer, these devs really seem listen to the good ideas of gamers for the most part. I feel like we all have had a small helping hand in the making of this game to some degree, but only the best of the best make the cut. Devs ideas mixed with fans/gamers feed back should be a win/win. Sometimes we all have to fight a little for what we want in the making of video game victory lol...

---------- Updated at 11:07 PM ----------

Thanks for the advice, that makes sense. Games like The Last of Us & Tomb Raider are not open world games either. GTAV is.. and it looks damn good to me, I will be so happy and amazed, if CDPR can make TW3's graphics look better thanTomb Raider Remastered and GTAV on PS4. I think it will, from what I've seen so far TW3 is going to look at least as good, if not better than Ryse Son of Rome too. I'm so fucking stoked that CDPR Team Devs seem to care about art & graphics as much as they do the story and gameplay.
It's awesome to be around, to play this Trinity of a game in our life time. It feels great to be a gamer, these devs really seem listen to the good ideas of gamers for the most part. I feel like we all have had a small helping hand in the making of this game to some degree, but only the best of the best make the cut. Devs ideas mixed with fans/gamers feed back should be a win/win. Sometimes we all have to fight a little for what we want in the making of video game victory lol...

Made a double post fyi.

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

Made a double post fyi.

Cool.. now I have 4 eyes... lol