Why the main narrative in the last third of the game is a bad hot mess [major spoilers!!!]

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I totally agree. I got the "bad ending" and it truly feels that I was punished for making common sense choices. I understand the part about accepting the Emperor's coin, but regarding accompanying her to talk to the lodge and not letting her destroy the lab? also I did take her to see Skjall and fight at the Sabbath event (those seemed like clear cut ways of supporting her emotional struggle, the other ones not so much).

Also I was expecting to see some of these changes due to my choices reflected IN the game not merely in the final epilogue. I wish I could have seen these changes happening as I reached the end of the game and be able to interact with them somehow. Also my memory is fuzzy but I recall helping Djsktra and Roche kill Radovid and still at the end I had Radovid ruling Novigrad. Dunno how that happened.

Overall great game but yeah I wasn't really satisfied with the ending for most of the reasons described in this post.

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I must say though that as a person who doesn't necessary likes happy endings I think the "bad" ending is not problematic in itself because of the fact that it's not a happy one. It's problematic because many things are left unresolved. I romanced Yen for instance yet in my "bad ending" nothing at all is said about our relationship. It's as if I end up in that hut alone waiting to die and nothing is said about what Yen feels regarding this. Does she hate me for having lost Ciri? I'll never know because it's unexplained. The ending is just unsatisfactory, it's not the fact that it's sad, I love sad endings and realistic endings where things can actually go wrong, I don't like over simplistic endings though where matters are not fully developed and explained.
 
I totally agree. I got the "bad ending" and it truly feels that I was punished for making common sense choices. I understand the part about accepting the Emperor's coin, but regarding accompanying her to talk to the lodge and not letting her destroy the lab? also I did take her to see Skjall and fight at the Sabbath event (those seemed like clear cut ways of supporting her emotional struggle, the other ones not so much).

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Contrary to what many want to believe, Geralt and Ciri's bond is badly based on books lore (almost all non-readers failed them). The right choices with Ciri make closer or farther her. The "mistake" of CDPR is the whole White Frozen statging in the story-line.

Introducing Ciri, Yennefer, Eredin, Emhyr etc in ONE open world had not sense at all in order to reach a solid story-line with solid choices and concequences. These characters are too important in Geralt's past. Adding that CDPR don't give a hint about which are his lost/recovered memories (from books or inventions?) the confusion is fringing the chaos.

Conciliate the begining of TW1 with the ends of TW3 had only 2 exits: an openworld game filled with good sidequests or a story-lined game complex and mature (hard and grey decisions)
 
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I don't really understand. You didn't know when you where making a choice? Or is it just that you didn't know what the consequence would be?

The five factors that determine whether Ciri lives or dies at the end of the game:

1) How you react after Vesemir is dead and Ciri is uncertain about herself and her abilities.
2) How you react when Ciri wants to go to the witch sabbath to kill Imlerith.
3) How you react when Ciri is called to the lodge of sorceresses.
4) How you react when Ciri wants to destroy Avallac'h's lab.
5) How you react when Ciri wants to visit Skjalls grave.


Only, they're not choices, they're trigger events. Unless you're told, you never actually know you're making a choice that has a consequence to it. Most people aren't going to willingly choose the 'bad' ending on their first playthrough, they aren't going to want to spend hours searching for Ciri, finding her, defeating the Wild Hunt and feeling great that you've accomplished something meaningful only to have that snatched away from you because you didn't activate enough triggers for her to live. As I said, this ending is a contrivance simply to provide the developers with an excuse to kill Ciri but ends up being a punitive measure that ruins the gaming experience for many players.

I don't know about the lore of the books but as an alternative example, you could have had a scene at the end showing Ciri closing all the portals connecting all the worlds for good, thus defeating the White Frost by preventing its spread. That would still have allowed her to fulfil the prophecy whilst not punishing the player for not making choices he didn't know he had to make.
 
I do wonder if this game would have benefitted from being a more linear (non open world) game with more focus on the main story and also better cutscenes (maybe cgi) for the important story moments. Thinking in retrospective I don't know if the open world, as well done as it was, really was worth it considering at some point in the last third of the game most of the open world aspects started losing interest (at least to me)..
 
I totally agree. I got the "bad ending" and it truly feels that I was punished for making common sense choices. I understand the part about accepting the Emperor's coin, but regarding accompanying her to talk to the lodge and not letting her destroy the lab? also I did take her to see Skjall and fight at the Sabbath event (those seemed like clear cut ways of supporting her emotional struggle, the other ones not so much).

Aye, this is the problem. I thought I was doing the right thing by accompanying her when asked. If my daughter asked me to accompany her to meet someone, that's what I'd do as a responsible parent. Especially someone with previous for mind control and regicide! That's what we'd all do, right? As for the snowball fight, there wasn't even any indication that there would be a snowball fight.
 
I respect what they were going for, but there probably could have been a better pass/fail check thrown in than "Leave my daughter alone with Philippa Eilheart and one of her stooges."

I definitely didn't earn a point for that one, having played the Witcher 2 and seen what happens on the Iorveth path.
 
Unless you're told, you never actually know you're making a choice that has a consequence to it. Most people aren't going to willingly choose the 'bad' ending on their first playthrough,

Well exactly, nobody would pick the bad ending on purpose so that's probably why they did it that way.

I respect what they were going for, but there probably could have been a better pass/fail check thrown in than "Leave my daughter alone with Philippa Eilheart and one of her stooges."

I definitely didn't earn a point for that one, having played the Witcher 2 and seen what happens on the Iorveth path.

yeah, that one is the only one that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Still to get the bad ending you have to screw up quite a bit more than that.
 
Nice to know. So I'm supposed to have intensive knowledge about Polish folklore to understand certain scenes in the game? I don't think so. If there is a connection of that kind CDPR has to explain it to me well enough to enable me to understand their narrative.


And why should the Crones do so? Why are they allies to the Aen Elle in the first place? Nothing of that is explained in the game. That the story is based on Polish folklore is nice (I really appreciate that) but it's a bad excuse for bad or lacking storytelling...


I agree to a certain extend. But there are several problems to that. First, the White Frost thing itself. Second, that I can't decide how I (as Geralt) want to react to Ciri's decision. And third, that the bad ending offers even less information in the ending slices about what happened to other people.

But not only the ending feels punishing. Take the drinking scene in Kaer Morhen. It's nowhere clear that "You don't have to be perfect at everything" leads to a depressive scene that feels like somebody wants to punish you for a bad decision. The underlying problem of all of that is the strict "self-assurance" vs "not self-assurance" pattern, that is nothing else than a simple "good" vs "bad" pattern that is insuficient for meaningful choices.

this . . . . Based on Polish/slavic/folklore/mytholgie huh lets have a look about the decision/triggger from kaer/morhen to skellige and i will give you a little overview of my perspective/experience how the slavic/countrys/laws with funeral rituals differences from the game/writing aspect.
It looks to me the writer had no clue about the polish/folklore nor have invested much time for northen/slavic funeral/rituals. maybe he lives in antarctica. .is a non European (US) or (muslim).no offence please.Would be even more insulting if he rly is Polish and write such poorly options.

Geralt says: “Think I know what might lift your spirits”>a snowball fight with Cirilla(positiv).

My interpretations on this is actually going to vesemirs chambers or doing something vesemir failed to achiev wit the she-Devil as ciri.or even drinking it has enough evidence that this is rly about to lift your spirit with Nilfgaardian Lemon

Geralt says. “Relax, you don’t need to be good at everything” >drinking session with cirilla(remember she is not anymore a child)(negativ)

Now some people are getting insulted and offended ,why you ask ? Most eastern/slavic countrys half europe/russians side it is traditional in funeral before/at/after , to drink no matter what you drink (Vodka,whiskey,raki,rakija,schnapss mahakaman spirit) to say farewell and goddbye SALUTE..Going out to a snowballfight would insult not only the family members friends it would be selfishness and disrespectful about the deceased. Meaning of this there is no way this decision plays in a eastern/slavic world. Would be much better i had the option like this :

geralt says : you want some Fisstech?(negativ) outcome ,cirilla will be a addict in the future
geralt says: are we gonna salute?(positive) outcome,cirilla will have better control of her outburst in Future.

Now lets have a look at skellige(decision/trigger) thats even more insulting of a way for all northern mythologie/laws/funeral/rituals.
Remember your first appeareance at kaer trolde (harbor) last king. amazing introducing about when a king is Dead that sons/daughter/wife normaly they cant choose its a honor, to take the boat with the post mortem.

Ciri asks to visit Skjall’s grave
Geralt says : no time (negativ) : why would i not respect a brave peasant who actually was necromanced by a cruel yen. Its ok even here in this thread people have no time to read all things what OP stated i get it no time ;).it would not take more time then to play a campain in COD (4).
geralt says :yeah, I’ll go with you.(Positiv) : the outcome of this was absolutly ridiculous.Why :

It gos against all northern/rules/laws/funeral rituals what we learnd before.
Supprting Cirilla in this means : Insulting not only the clans(lugos) offending the king(cerys.hjalmar etc...) not asking permission and slapping citizens of skellige to defend a not honorable man who has no grave becasue the laws forbidd it. (i was scavenging the hole nord almost on evry village /town they try to kill/insulting Yennefer if shes not have taken the blam with geralt exactly on the same guy who was necromanced drives me even more crazy.) in the End is positiv to support cirilla right but the blame will be on Geralt next time he will visit SKELLIGE. i cant see how this even be claimed to be positiv when the negativ outcome of this is outragous.

that almost evry single skellige citizen hates Yennifer should be a reason enough not piss on laws/rules on a foreing country or you will be judged and hanged. no matter if you are a witcher (Bounty-Hunters legion).

ps. Would be great if somebody would make a poll: asking how they interpret this : “Think I know what might lift your spirits” and i doubt of 1ook poeple the answer will be snowball/fight or even related to that.
 
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Well exactly, nobody would pick the bad ending on purpose so that's probably why they did it that way.

The issue is not that there is a 'bad' ending, the issue is that any 'bad' ending based upon choices you aren't aware you're making is not good game design. In other words, if you're going to have a consequence of choice, you have to know your'e making a choice to begin with otherwise it's punishment, not consequence. The fact you don't know is the bad design, not the fact there's a 'bad' ending.
 
ps. Would be great if somebody would make a poll: asking how they interpret this : “Think I know what might lift your spirits” and i doubt of 1ook poeple the answer will be snowball/fight or even related to that.

Geralt don't know how Ciri can tolerate alcochol and, Geralt has really present the skatting moments with his daughter. Yes, it can look wierd for some players, but is Geralt life, who has a past and in this past, a long time aparted form his daughter, for years. When he finds her he's broken down believing she is dead... and really you thing a father will waste the last possible moments with her "little girl" (fathers know what that means) drinking?

Alcohol is a neuro-depressant.... risking to end both drunk and crying because the dark future or not future at all? Well, IMO I'm glad CDPR had no this option in mind.
 
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The issue is not that there is a 'bad' ending, the issue is that any 'bad' ending based upon choices you aren't aware you're making is not good game design. In other words, if you're going to have a consequence of choice, you have to know your'e making a choice to begin with otherwise it's punishment, not consequence. The fact you don't know is the bad design, not the fact there's a 'bad' ending.

You have two options. Go visit Skjalls grave or don't. And you aren't aware that this is a choice? The timer also clearly gives away that this is different from other choices.
 
Geralt don't know how Ciri can tolerate alcochol and, Geralt has really present the skatting moments with his daughter. Yes, it can look wierd for some players, but is Geralt life, who has a past and in this past, a long time aparted form his daughter, for years. When he finds her he's broken down believing she is dead... and really you thing a father will waste the last possible moments with her "little girl" (fathers know what that means) drinking?

Alcohol is a neuro-depressant.... risking to end both drunk and crying because the dark future or not future at all? Well, IMO I'm glad CDPR had no this option in mind.

Yeah well but this messes with our minds too, because through that reasoning of wanting to "take care of my little girl" I got her killed because apparently I should have been more "supportive of her as a responsible and self reliant adult". So what is it? Either one or the other, but these ambiguous psychological middle grounds really mess with you in the game.
 
Yeah well but this messes with our minds too, because through that reasoning of wanting to "take care of my little girl" I got her killed because apparently I should have been more "supportive of her as a responsible and self reliant adult". So what is it? Either one or the other, but these ambiguous psychological middle grounds really mess with you in the game.

So weird!!! This is exactly what Yen thinks about Geralt behavior! ;)

Seriously, howerer CDPR had tried to make the game as a standalone for easier compehenssion of newcomers in the Wticher Saga they have failed to prevent the treachery of their subconscious and all the information that books been left in their imagination. No one can escape their own memories or prevent influence their decisions, no matter how much will of iron have. The hypothalamus is usually very independent and often decide without consulting the frontal cortex.
 
You have to play snowball fight with her like a little child but then you need to leave all the important decisions to her like an adult and then you have to let her trash a lab like an emo teenager would, so clearly there's no coherence there regardless of what the books may say.
 
You have to play snowball fight with her like a little child but then you need to leave all the important decisions to her like an adult and then you have to let her trash a lab like an emo teenager would, so clearly there's no coherence there regardless of what the books may say.

Geralt's personality, , and the chance to act like a naughty boy for a while after a long, long, long time. So hard to understand?
 
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You have to play snowball fight with her like a little child but then you need to leave all the important decisions to her like an adult and then you have to let her trash a lab like an emo teenager would, so clearly there's no coherence there regardless of what the books may say.

you have to cheer her up instead of making her even more depressed. the only thing that doesn't really fit is the lodge situation.
 
I agree a lot with OP, except I was pleasantly surprised when I found out which choices affected the ending. Mainly because I naturally picked all the options that lead to Ciri surviving, except the meeting with the lodge. The way you cheered her up with the snowball fight and smashing the lab just seemed right at the time. Now if I picked other choices, saw the bad ending and read about why I got it, for sure I would be PO'd, but it just didn't work out that way for me so I can't complain too much about it.

Now all the other points, about how the pacing went weird at the end. How Eredin was super disappointing, the lack of Ciri interaction with characters like Yen. The brief and disappointing epilogue (combined with the dead world you get dropped into afterwards). ;For sure there were many missed opportunities. I really do hope CDPR is able to work on some of these in an enhanced edition. I'd bet also anyone that played through this game is probably begging for there to be more to the last 1/3 of it. It's still one of the best games I've ever played, but CDPR can still achieve god-status among game makers if they can add more to the last part of it.
 
You have two options. Go visit Skjalls grave or don't. And you aren't aware that this is a choice? The timer also clearly gives away that this is different from other choices.

Wrong. You have to do three of those five, not two. They aren't presented to you as choices, they're presented as character building moments within the game. They're framed as you making a decision on how to act as a parent, not whether you're making a life or death decision. There's a big difference and you know it.

If Ciri had been presented to the player as a young girl lacking in self confidence and you know that she has to fight alongside Geralt against Eredin and the Wild Hunt then yes, you know instinctively that she needs her confidence building in order to come through it unscathed. But Ciri is not presented as lacking in self confidence, quite the contrary, nor is that where she can die. It's simply an arbitrary system created to justify a 'bad' ending.
 
I agree with the OP.

I think they should have taken the White Frost thing off the table and just focus on the Wild Hunt in Chapter 3.
The ending made no sense. Why is Eredin even fighting you at the end. Isn't his entire goal to save his people from the White Frost? If Ciri can and is willing to confront the White Frost isn't that exactly what he wants? Should he be helping her? Why is he saying ridiculous things like "Avallach deceived both of us" when Avallach is getting Ciri to do exactly what he wants?

Ciri being able to "defeat" the White Frost is a ridiculous concept that should never have made it into the game.
 
If Ciri had been presented to the player as a young girl lacking in self confidence and you know that she has to fight alongside Geralt against Eredin and the Wild Hunt then yes, you know instinctively that she needs her confidence building in order to come through it unscathed. But Ciri is not presented as lacking in self confidence, quite the contrary, nor is that where she can die. It's simply an arbitrary system created to justify a 'bad' ending.

uhm really? you didn't notice anything wrong with her, especially after/during the battle of Kaer Morhen and the Avallac'h lab quest (where 3 of the choices are located) ?
 
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