So how do you think Avallac really feels about Ciri?

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I don't like Avallach or his kind.
He is a self righteous weasel that I'll never trust. These Elves think they are so especial and so forth, but they're like the rest of the self righteous racist scum.
I really wanted Geralt to kill him, but unfortunately he was interrupted.

Ahem, you're not really answering the question of this thread, are you? ;)
 
Ahem, you're not really answering the question of this thread, are you? ;)
The answer to the question lies within my answer.
He is a self righteous weasel, so she sees Ciri as a mean to an end. His kind are racist scum who see others as lesser beings, so Avallach also sees Ciri as a lesser being since she is not pure blooded.
He was not man enough to tell Geralt face to face what he planned, although he knew how much Geralt cares about Ciri. If Avallach cared about Ciri he would not so easily send her in the belly of the beast.
I really wanted Geralt to cut him down for these reasons.
 
The answer to the question lies within my answer.
He is a self righteous weasel, so she sees Ciri as a mean to an end. His kind are racist scum who see others as lesser beings, so Avallach also sees Ciri as a lesser being since she is not pure blooded.
He was not man enough to tell Geralt face to face what he planned, although he knew how much Geralt cares about Ciri. If Avallach cared about Ciri he would not so easily send her in the belly of the beast.
I really wanted Geralt to cut him down for these reasons.

For which reasons exactly? For being a racist? Well, then Geralt would have to kill a lot of people in this world, probably 80% of humanity first...

And why should Avallac'h tell Geralt about his plan? He knew that he would be against it and try to stop him. So there is no way that it would have made any sense to tell Geralt about it. And after all, it's Ciri's decision, not Avallac'h's. Geralt has his chance to save her, no matter what Avallac'h did. Avallac'h did Ciri no harm so why exactly should Geralt kill him? Sorry, but I don't see ANY moral or comprehensible justification for that.

And to come back to the question: I think Avallac'h's feelings towards Ciri are much more complex and ambigious that some of you think. Ciri is more to him than just a mean to an end. That's pretty much why he saved her from Eredin in the first place. He acted against his own kin just in order to save her. Does he have an own agenda? Very likely. Is it necessarily bad for Ciri? I don't think so. People can change after all. Emhyr in the books is the best example for that.
 
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For which reasons exactly? For being a racist? Well, then Geralt would have to kill a lot of people in this world, probably 80% of humanity first...
No, because he was planning on sending Ciri into a portal that she may never come back from without telling Geralt, and we all know Geralt would kill without even flinching when it comes down to Ciri. As a matter of fact he would have proceeded with killing Avalach, if he was not interrupted by Ciri.
And why should Avallac'h tell Geralt about his plan? He knew that he would be against it and try to stop him. So there is no way that it would have made any sense to tell Geralt about it. And after all, it's Ciri's decision, not Avallac'h's. Geralt has his chance to save her, no matter what Avallac'h did. Avallac'h did Ciri no harm so why exactly should Geralt kill him? Sorry, but I don't see ANY moral or comprehensible justification for that.
Geralt was involved in putting Avallach's plan in motion. Geralt was a part of it, and he had a right to know what was going on. Geralt has raised Ciri, and he had a right to know as a father although it is Ciri's decision at the end. At least by knowing what was going on he could have said goodbye to Ciri before she went on a mission that she might not have come back from. Avallach did not harm Ciri directly, but he planned to send her on a suicide mission that she might have never came back from. And He used a clueless Geralt to achieve his goal, because he was willing to do everything to save his daughter. Avallach was putting Ciri's life in risk, and it would have resulted in death, the greatest harm.
And to come back to the question: I think Avallac'h's feelings towards Ciri are much more complex and ambigious that some of you think. Ciri is more to him than just a mean to an end. That's pretty much why he saved her from Eredin in the first place. He acted against his own kin just in order to save her. Does he have an own agenda? Very likely. Is it necessarily bad for Ciri? I don't think so. People can change after all. Emhyr in the books is the best example for that.
Well we agree on this. Avallach did not do anything for Ciri out of the kindness of his heart, and he had an agenda of his own.

I don't think he loves Ciri or cares about her, but I respect your opinion if you think he does.
 
No, because he was planning on sending Ciri into a portal that she may never come back from without telling Geralt, and we all know Geralt would kill without even flinching when it comes down to Ciri. As a matter of fact he would have proceeded with killing Avalach, if he was not interrupted by Ciri.
You forget to mention that Ciri WANTS to go through that portal. Avallac'h doesn't force her. So there is no reason for Geralt to kill him no matter what.

Geralt was involved in putting Avallach's plan in motion.
Which plan do you mean? There was never any sensical plan in the first place imo. The ending with the portal is just plain deus ex machina that has no connection at all to the rest of the story. It would have worked even without the whole rest of the game. The only thing Geralt ever did for Avallac'h was transforming him back from being UMA to his real stature (well, Yen did it). After that I don't see how Geralt worked for "Avallac'h's plan"...

Geralt was a part of it, and he had a right to know what was going on. Geralt has raised Ciri, and he had a right to know as a father although it is Ciri's decision at the end. At least by knowing what was going on he could have said goodbye to Ciri before she went on a mission that she might not have come back from. Avallach did not harm Ciri directly, but he planned to send her on a suicide mission that she might have never came back from. And He used a clueless Geralt to achieve his goal, because he was willing to do everything to save his daughter. Avallach was putting Ciri's life in risk, and it would have resulted in death, the greatest harm.
He was putting Ciri's life at risk in order "to save the universe". Geralt put Ciri's life at risk just to kill the Crones and Imlerith. In both cases Ciri was perfectly fine with that "plan". Geralt always knew that destiny forged his and Ciri's relationship and life and that it would be HER destiny to decide what she wants to do with her blood. If that decision leads her to go through the portal so be it. Avallac'h is not responsible for that. Not even for not telling Geralt. Ciri didn't tell him neither, so why should he do? It's a thing between Ciri and Geralt and if she wanted to tell him she would have done so. Probably she even told Avallac'h to not tell Geralt anything. So I still don't see how anything of that should lead to Geralt klling Avallac'h, at least not in the way the ending was depicted in the game. There is just no good reason for it. Avallac'h is no direct threat to Ciri in any situation in which Geralt is present and only direct threats are usually the situations in which Geralt kills without hesitation. This isn't such a situation. The only reason I could think of could be pure vengeance out of bitterness or whatever after Ciri went through the portal. I don't think that Geralt would do so because that wouldn't fit his character I imagined based on the books but maybe he did? We don't know since the game doesn't show it to us. So if you want to see that reality it's perfectly fine to do so. I prefer to think differently about the whole situation. ;)

I don't think he loves Ciri or cares about her, but I respect your opinion if you think he does.
As I've said, I think his feelings are complex. Caring or loving don't give that justice.
 
This is sort of unrelated but are we even sure Geralt could kill Avallach? He'd be a better sword fighter yeah but Avallach is an Elven Sage, one of the most powerful beings in existence. If he can cast a spell that levels an entire forest surely he could kill practically anyone in seconds.
 
It depends how much being cured from the curse damaged him. If he was THAT strong, he wouldn't have needed Geralt's help against Eredin either.
 
Do we know how much time she spent with Avallac'h? First I was surprised how much she seems to trust him, considering what he wanted to do with her in Lady of the Lake. But from understanding they spent several years together and he probably saved, helped and protected her over and over again.
Take her "family" as a example. She calls Triss her sister, while they only spent a several months together.
She calls Yennefer her mother and Vesemir her uncle and only spent less than a year with them.
Spending several years with one person must have been an eternity for her. A lot of time to build up close relationship.
 
Do we know how much time she spent with Avallac'h?

Quotes from the game:

Geralt: How'd you ever start traveling with Avallac'h?

Ciri: As soon as I'd left you and Yen on the Isle of Avalon, I found myself pursued. Eredin and his Red Riders were on my heels. I fled through many worlds, many times... They came very close to catching me, once. It was then that Avallac'h appeared, out of nowhere. He found a portal and took us to a world where Eredin couldn't find us for... oh, perhaps half a year.

Geralt: So why'd you return?

Ciri: I thought the Hunt had lost my scent for good. I thought I was safe.

Then happens the event in Ard Skellig where Avallac'h got cursed and Ciri escaped to Crookback Bog. So their time together is more or less six months I guess?
 
.So their time together is more or less six months I guess?

Judging by that quote, it could be anything from 7-9 months to 6 years. She could have met him soon after she left the Isle of Avalon, which took place 5-6 years before the Witcher 3 events.
 
It really depends on whether the incident of "they came close to finding me..." was when she rescued Geralt and dumped him at Kaer Morhen. If so, and assuming she and Avallac'h met almost immediately afterwards, then it would have been somewhere between a year to eighteen months earlier, the timeframe of the three games up to this point. Take away the six months she spent in the other world, and yes - six months to a year with Avallac'h.

If that WASN'T the incident, then, as you say, it could be anything up to six years.
 
That's a good point, though Eredin hunted her for 6 years and she fled in "many world, many times". I can imagine Eredin being close to catch her many times. Otherwise she wouldn't have to change worlds permanently. In the end we don't know, but considering how much she trusts him, i prefer to believe that they spent several years together.
 
She could have met him soon after she left the Isle of Avalon

The quotes said after they met for the first time, Avallac'h immediately took them both to that safe world for half a year, then happened Witcher 3. Ciri was on her own before that, judging from the use of "I" and "me" instead of "us", also there is the "It was then...".
 
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The quotes said after they met for the first time, Avallac'h immediately took them both to that safe world for half a year, then happened Witcher 3. Ciri was on her own before that, judging from the use of "I" and "me" instead of "us" and "It was then...".
You are right. Although the quote doesn't say clearly that they went directly from the "safe world" to the Witcher world. They could have traveled to other worlds between. Though I admit it's rather unlikely.
 
In the end we don't know, but considering how much she trusts him, i prefer to believe that they spent several years together.

This somehow contradicts your post before. You showed up that Ciri doesn't have to spend years with a person to trust it. I think it's definitely possible that Ciri and Avallac'h were "only" travelling for about a year and still she could trust him a lot. She was hunted by Eredin and suddenly Avallac'h _helps_ her to not get cought. This must have shown her that he means it seriously with helping her.

One further aspect to why it is unlikely they spent six years it, that Ciri still isn't trained well. Remember the scenes after the Battle of Kaer Morhen when Avallac'h starts to train her to use the big(!) powers. If they had enough time (e.g. six years) she likely would be able to defeat the White Frost.
 
This somehow contradicts your post before. You showed up that Ciri doesn't have to spend years with a person to trust it. I think it's definitely possible that Ciri and Avallac'h were "only" travelling for about a year and still she could trust him a lot. She was hunted by Eredin and suddenly Avallac'h _helps_ her to not get cought. This must have shown her that he means it seriously with helping her.
I agree that it's possible but in opposite to the other persons I mentioned Avallac'h had to make up for his past deeds to gain her trust.. He held her captive in Tir Na Lia, tried to force her to sleep with Auberon and according to Eredin would have even beeen capable of doing with her what Vilgefortz planed to do. You would think it needs to a bit more time to trust such a person than Geralt, Yennefer or Vesemir who never did any harm to her.


One further aspect to why it is unlikely they spent six years it, that Ciri still isn't trained well. Remember the scenes after the Battle of Kaer Morhen when Avallac'h starts to train her to use the big(!) powers. If they had enough time (e.g. six years) she likely would be able to defeat the White Frost.
That plotpoint isn't very logical anyway. Apparantly some days were enough to "unlock" her superpowers. She changed from a strong fighter before Kaer Morhen to a onehitting Wild Hunt soldiers superhero after Kaer Morhen. If a few days of traning are enough for such a change than they should have done it in the 6 months before.
 
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I agree that it's possible but in opposite to the other persons I mentioned Avallac'h had to make up for his past deeds to gain her trust.. He held her captive in Tir Na Lia, tried to force her to sleep with Auberon and according to Eredin would have even beeen capable of doing with her what Vilgefortz planed to do. You would think it needs to a bit more time to trust such a person than Geralt, Yennefer or Vesemir who never did any harm to her.



That plotpoint isn't very logical anyway. Apparantly some days were enough to "unlock" her superpowers. She changed from a strong fighter before Kaer Morhen to a onehitting Wild Hunt soldiers superhero after Kaer Morhen. If a few days of traning are enough for such a change than they should have done it in the 6 months before.

You're right here, of course. In my opinion the game lacks a good explanation for Ciri's big trust in Avallac'h. I'm a book reader (and love them of course) and just like you it's quite uncomprehensible why this all happened and how. E.g. why did Avallac'h totally change his plans?


The whole White Frost plot is illogical. We must not forget that Ciri's gameplay parts were designed to have a "good flow", not a consistent gameplay. I wouldn't take these scenes as lore/canon necessarily.
 
You're right here, of course. In my opinion the game lacks a good explanation for Ciri's big trust in Avallac'h. I'm a book reader (and love them of course) and just like you it's quite uncomprehensible why this all happened and how. E.g. why did Avallac'h totally change his plans?
That's why I think they spent more than only 6 months together. After all he had done in Lady of the Lake it's difficult for me to imagine that she would completely trust him in such a short time. Judging by the one dialogue outside of Novigrad she seems to even have more trust in him than in Yennefer (can't blame her though, considering Yennefer seems to have an agenda regarding Ciri's future)
I think it's pointless to discuss why Avallac'h changed his plans considering CDP changed the nature of the White Frost and the way Auberon died.. He just had to adjust to CDP's lore rape.


The whole White Frost plot is illogical. We must not forget that Ciri's gameplay parts were designed to have a "good flow", not a consistent gameplay. I wouldn't take these scenes as lore/canon necessarily.
That's why I would look at the moments, in which we are not playing as her and everybody experiences the game in the same way. There are two cutscenes, in which we see her fightning.
Before her training in Kaer Morhen she is fighting three of whoreson's thugs on temple island. While she manages to defeat them, she is struggling and exhausted after.
After her training in Kaer Morhen, we can see her fighting and completely dominating Caranthir
Her abilities changed from struggling against three common thugs to completely dominating a powerful Aen Elle mage.
Imo it's illogical how much more powerful she became because of a few days of training and it raises the question why Avallac'h didn't use the at least 6 months they spent together to "unlock" her superpowers before.
 
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Geralt was a part of it, and he had a right to know what was going on.

You have to remember that it is always our player perspective. From our perspective, being all-knowing Death march soldiers with the guide, 150,000+ crowns in riding bags, a full bestiary, alchemical list, and a pantry on our back larger than all the larders in Novigrad, Velen, and Skellige combined, Geralt needs to know.

From everyone else's perspective, Geralt is simple(r), stubborn and sometimes violent. He isn't told things, partially because he doesn't want to hear them (politics), and partially because people are afraid of his reaction (Ciri). Geralt is so protective of Ciri during the game, that he can actually suppress her. This is why people can get the bad ending; that is what the (partially) nonsensical decisions in the game meant.

You are supposed to trust Ciri, trust that she can make her own decisions (regardless of Phillipa, Avallach, etc.), and believe in her. As Ciri says, "This is my story." Should Ciri really be compelled to tell her very protective, lately absent father, who has recently reunited with her, that she's planned all this up to (suicidally) run through a portal? I love Geralt - but it's a leap of faith.

The narrative hinges on the fact that Ciri makes the decision on her own. Avallach can only influence the decisions up to the tower. And even then his influence is limited. Her resolve (created by Geralt's reactions) is what pushes her through the frost.

I think the difficulty with Avallach is two-fold. First, we would like Ciri to be happy. She likes him, so some of us hope that he would like her. It isn't only the she-elf's jealousy on display in the laboratory. She's really, really mad -- threatening to flatten the place, mad. You don't get that mad at someone's secret lover telling you insults you've already heard, and possibly doubt the legitimacy of, unless you really care about that someone. Geralt can actually accuse her of this during the lab, to which Yennefer shakes her head, and Ciri continues storming.

Second, Avallach doesn't ingratiate himself to Geralt, and as consequence, the player. The nicest he is to Geralt is Through Time and Space, where he pontificated about sandcrabs, lost Geralt in a swamp/ocean/mountains, and bothered to go light the lighthouse. (Notice, it's a one-way trip from Ge'els back.) He spends most of his time with his nose in the air, waxing profound about the glory of the elven master race, and hiding valuable information about his plan for Ciri.

Given the additional context from lab and books, it's miraculous that anyone has a nice word to say.

But, Avallach isn't in love with Geralt.
 
There are two cutscenes, in which we see her fightning.
Before her training in Kaer Morhen she is fighting three of whoreson's thugs on temple island. While she manages to defeat them, she is struggling and exhausted after.
After her training in Kaer Morhen, we can see her fighting and completely dominating Caranthir
Her abilities changed from struggling against three common thugs to completely dominating a powerful Aen Elle mage.

She puts up a good fight at first, but then she actually loses and has to run away so dunno how you can call that "completely dominating" him.
 
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