My suddenly revised thoughts on Yennefer vs. Triss

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Point, I'd completely forgotten that canon isn't just a modern expression. Unless someone argues that Andrej Sapkowski speaks and writes with the voice of God while the developers of the games are just extrapolating though, I still don't see how the classification matters.

The classification doesn't matter for instances of fans discussing personal lore preferences on the internet. The point was made solely to address the statement that "The concepts of canon and non-canon don't exist as legal or technical definitions."
 
Point, I'd completely forgotten that canon isn't just a modern expression. Unless someone argues that Andrej Sapkowski speaks and writes with the voice of God while the developers of the games are just extrapolating though, I still don't see how the classification matters.

The games being "non-canon" to the books simply means that Sapkowski has no obligation whatsoever to take the games' content into account when writing books. But it does not mean they cannot have their own "canon" - things that are established as facts regardless of the player's choices - in their universe, even contradicting the books. Or sometimes the previous games. In such cases, my choices in TW3 are based mainly on how the game itself presents the world and characters, after all, according to the developers themselves, it was intended to be playable as a stand-alone title with no knowledge of the prequels or books. Information from those is taken into account, but the logical order of precedence is TW3>TW2>TW1>books. When reading the books, the games do not matter - their events did not even happen yet.

People should stop really trying to convert other users to their preferred sorceress it isn't a religion and it's about personal taste. What is good for you isn't good for the others. Arguing with someone on how HE perceived Geralt relations by bringing points on how YOU perceived the same relations is quite pointless. Perceptions differs and so choices. There isn't a better choice, there are preferences....would you argue with me because I love strawberry ice-cream instead of chocolate? It's quite pointless.

Indeed, one ultimately needs to be able to agree to disagree. There is a lot of subjectivity and "head-canon" involved in the arguments from both sides, which obviously leads to the different opinions. But religious wars over choices in an RPG are rather pointless, the fact that the choice exists in the first place and resources were put into implementing it (and then patching it post-release) shows that the authors themselves consider all the options valid. There is no "canon choice" either, unless a sequel makes it a fact that a particular choice was made, although right now TW3 is said to be the end of Geralt's story.

I'm sorry, but... freed by amnesia? Amnesia is a traumatic event that steals from you a great part of who you are and leaves you vulnerable in more ways than one.

I think wright1978's point was by no means that the amnesia itself is a good thing - but sometimes even the most traumatic events can indirectly have unexpected positive consequences.
 
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Yes, amnesia as a blessing in disguise, one might say, which you can interpret as a chance (the only chance?) at starting anew with a softer, better adjusted lady. Or a catalyst for a manipulative relationship where one partner holds a hell of a lot more cards than the other. Both can be argued for.
 
For me the amnesia is just some kind of deus ex machina created by CDPR so they could work around what already was and bend it in any direction they wanted to at will, to the delight of many people as you can see over the years.

Without the amnesia so many things would have gone in a different direction and I don't mean just his love life, e.g. his whole involvement in politics.

Still I have a hard time to believe that Geralt regrets, what lies in the past, when everything started with this and like that:

So it was quite a joy to see that Witcher 3 continued it from the very start instead of just ignoring it like the last 2 games.

With the amnesia they could also have just reset everything to zero again, a fresh start, but they didn't. To my surprise (and what I hoped for to be honest) they decided to follow in the steps of the books again, which obviously led to some commotion here and there.

I think the amnesia is an easy way (and used often in every medium) to make for example other relationships possible, to let the player decide for himself, however I see always a red flag, if it is also necessary for some to speak ill of the past to make their decision "better", so, sorry about that.
 
Yes, amnesia as a blessing in disguise, one might say, which you can interpret as a chance (the only chance?) at starting anew with a softer, better adjusted lady. Or a catalyst for a manipulative relationship where one partner holds a hell of a lot more cards than the other. Both can be argued for.

I see what you mean, and in my mind that's one of the main reasons for Geralt not to immediately engage Triss in the first game, before he feels even remotely confident in himself and his history. He obviously has some kind of past with her and really has no idea what he'd be getting himself into, and he knows it. He's the one who makes the first move if he does go for her though, and she respects him keeping his distance if he doesn't. As long as that doesn't involve stupidly reckless and offensive behavior from her perspective, like giving a dangerous prepubescent Source to some herbalist tramp to raise instead of her, in which case she freely tears him a new one, which doesn't scream 'manipulative' to me. (No offense to Shani-lovers, just Triss' take on the whole thing.)

On a related note, you said you've had personal experience with people suffering from amnesia. What are your thoughts on Geralt not really making any efforts to inquire about his own past until the second game? Everybody at Kaer Morhen knows about Yennefer and Ciri, and Dandelion knows his past relationships better than anyone else alive. He has ample opportunity, and reason, to orient himself before the first game even starts, so you can't say that Triss kept anything from him on that front - and she explains in full when he finally does ask. Is there a medical reason that he shouldn't be expected to stress himself in that regard, or maybe that avoidance is a defense mechanism of some kind? I'm not calling you out or anything, just curious if you have any insights.

For me the amnesia is just some kind of deus ex machina created by CDPR so they could work around what already was and bend it in any direction they wanted to at will, to the delight of many people as you can see over the years.

Without the amnesia so many things would have gone in a different direction and I don't mean just his love life, e.g. his whole involvement in politics.

Still I have a hard time to believe that Geralt regrets, what lies in the past, when everything started with this and like that:

So it was quite a joy to see that Witcher 3 continued it from the very start instead of just ignoring it like the last 2 games.

With the amnesia they could also have just reset everything to zero again, a fresh start, but they didn't. To my surprise (and what I hoped for to be honest) they decided to follow in the steps of the books again, which obviously led to some commotion here and there.

I think the amnesia is an easy way (and used often in every medium) to make for example other relationships possible, to let the player decide for himself, however I see always a red flag, if it is also necessary for some to speak ill of the past to make their decision "better", so, sorry about that.

That's clearly one way to look at it.

For me, not taking the amnesia and the effects it could realistically have on Geralt's worldview seriously is to ignore both a pretty major plot point and a very big and very fundamental personal problem that Geralt struggles with for months and inevitably should change his perspective on some level. Yes it's a bit of a cop out for the developers, but it's also a serious and complicated issue for Geralt which pulls its own weight dramatically, at least to me.

I use RPGs to get into the heads of cool and interesting characters that I create or interpret myself, feeling what impacts them, empathizing with their reasoning and taking it in powerful, dramatic directions that touch me through original storytelling. Compared to that, trying to maintain a status quo that doesn't actually exist in the books until the very end isn't really a priority. But that's the whole point of RPGs, playing them whichever way you enjoy.
 
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There are obvious developer related reasons as to why Geralt is kept in the dark in regards to Yennefer and Ciri. It is highly likely they had not been included in the story because they were not meant to be a part of the game world at that time. The fact that the closest friends to Geralt forget to inquire about or even mention by name the most important people in his life cannot be logically explained otherwise. In that regards Triss behaves just as strangely as Dandelion and Zoltan.

But at the end of the day the fact still remains that the Triss-Geralt relationship is what it is and starts the way it does. Of course you want to protect an amnesiac who has suffered an obviously traumatic event by not laying everything at his/her feet without thought. But before you decide that someone's memory loss gives you the best and only chance to shine as a new bright and warm love interest, you might want to think about the context again. In my opinion Triss should not have initiated or responded to any romantic/sexual stuff when it comes to the amnesiac Geralt. Given their history and everything that has happened between them, and everything that she knows about him and he doesn't, he deserved to be allowed to recover before being thrust into a relationship with a woman he outright rejected before.

In what concerns people suffering from memory loss, I am a traumatology resident, and I have seen a great many cases of amnesia both trauma related and illness related. In my experience the patient will demand answers about him/herself and prior events and feel entitled to them, unless in a deeply confused state. Friends and family and phycisians are all supposed to work together and help the patient recover his/her memory as soon as possible. Knowing someone's history and making sure that the person is fully aware of what is going on so that they can make the most informed decisions in regards to themselves is essential in treating them. The fact that for a while Geralt doesn't seem that desperate to recover the memory of his own past is odd but beneficial to a game world that had been constructed at that point without Ciri or Yennefer's inclusion.

I have also dealt with an Alzheimer's disease sufferer in the family, where the notion of wanting to protect and coddle the person became more tangible. I understand the human angle where one might simply not want to burden the person with their own past. But it doesn't make it right.
 
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Well, to be fair all eye-witness accounts of Geralt's death including Triss' make it clear that Yennefer killed herself trying to heal him. As his friends are well aware that he doesn't remember anything about what happened to bring him back, making a point of explaining about his beloved soulmate who also died pointlessly but apparently hasn't might not seem very sensitive. And again, Triss spares him no details when he finally does ask, even to the potential detriment of their relationship. And let's not forget that the Northern Kingdoms 1270 have a poor imitation of modern medical knowledge and ethics, although they're comparatively advanced for a fantasy setting.

Okay, I've now read the books and I concede that the Geralt-Yennefer thing is pretty epic as presented, if not very consistently happy, and I won't automatically avoid her as a romance option in the games. That said, I still think that he has a healthier relationship with Triss which also shouldn't be automatically dismissed just because it takes Geralt in a new direction, and some of the things Geralt and Yennefer have done to each other still make me uncomfortable with them continuing to try to stay together.
 
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Well, to be fair all eye-witness accounts of Geralt's death including Triss' make it clear that Yennefer killed herself trying to heal him. As his friends are well aware that he doesn't remember anything about what happened to bring him back, making a point of explaining about his beloved soulmate who also died pointlessly but apparently hasn't might not seem very sensitive. And again, Triss spares him no details when he finally does ask, even to the potential detriment of their relationship. And let's not forget that the Northern Kingdoms 1270 have a poor imitation of modern medical knowledge and ethics, although they're comparatively advanced for a fantasy setting.

Okay, I've now read the books and I concede that Geralt-Yennefer thing is pretty epic as presented, if not very consistently happy, and I won't automatically avoid her as a romance option in the games. That said, I still think that he has a healthier relationship with Triss which also shouldn't be automatically dismissed just because it takes Geralt in a new direction, and some of the things Geralt and Yennefer have done to each other still make me uncomfortable with them continuing to try to stay together.

If you've read the books, then I'm not sure how you can consider Triss 'healthier' for Geralt. In the books, Triss (while working with the Lodge) rationalizes that it is better that Geralt dies after she convinces Ciri that Yennefer was a spy for Nilfgaard, because Geralt would 'complicate' matters. Yennefer might have been demanding, and she hexed him that one time in "The Last Wish" short story, but she never wanted Geralt dead... Nor did she ever put a clandestine political cabal ahead of her 'family'. Furthermore, as far as I can tell Yennefer never got to tell Geralt what Triss did for the lodge, she was going to do that in Rivia, in front of Triss, to be spiteful. It's never implied in the games either, it's more than likley whitewashed due to practicality (i.e. Triss being turned into an 'option' for the players; however I think it is silly to do it, there would have been more drama and gravitas to the decision if Geralt was made fully aware of Triss' complacency with the lodge's plan in the books). And if you want to be literal, in the games Geralt retires with Yennefer, he continues taking contracts if he ends up with Triss...
 
If you've read the books, then I'm not sure how you can consider Triss 'healthier' for Geralt. In the books, Triss (while working with the Lodge) rationalizes that it is better that Geralt dies after she convinces Ciri that Yennefer was a spy for Nilfgaard, because Geralt would 'complicate' matters. Yennefer might have been demanding, and she hexed him that one time in "The Last Wish" short story, but she never wanted Geralt dead... Nor did she ever put a clandestine political cabal ahead of her 'family'..

I remember the "Save him, Phillipa/ the information for his life" episode, but I can't remember whether it was in connection to anything specific or just a request regarding his general safety. They do basically tell Yennefer to go fuck herself, with Geralt in tow, but I don't think there was an immediate threat to his life... Not that it makes it much better, but still. (This might be off-topic)
 
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as far as I can tell Yennefer never got to tell Geralt what Triss did for the lodge

'You're not going to meet a loved one, Triss,' Yennefer continued. 'I am not so noble orstupid enough to give you the opportunity, or him the temptation. But just for today. I couldnot deny myself the sweet satisfaction. He knows what role you play as a member of the Lodge. He will thank you for that with his famous look. And I'll be looking at your quivering lips and trembling hands, I will listen to your lame apologies and excuses. And you know what, Triss? I will faint with delight.'

It's never implied in the games either, it's more than likley whitewashed due to practicality

Ciri: Lodge had plans for me.
Triss is a member (former) of the Lodge.
1+1?

but she never wanted Geralt dead

Nor Triss. She had no will to oppose the woman (Philippa), who gave her "helping hand", at that moment, but never wanted Geralt's death and never put his life in danger, personally.


:eredinfacepalm:
 
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We learn in TW2 that amnesia is pretty normal after an encounter with the Wild Hunt. In TW2 and TW3, it is confirmed that Yennefer also suffered from the Wild Hunt related amnesia. In TW3, in the chat with her after the main quest of Act I in Skellige is done, that she recovered her memory quickly enough with the help of the Nilfgardian mages. So quickly and effortless apparently, that she thought the Wild Hunt amnesia not to be a big thing at all.

Back to TW1. When Geralt was out of the clutches of the Wild Hunt, he immediately had a mage at hand - his good old friend Triss, not some hostile Nilfgardian interrogators. I will give her the benefit of the doubt at first, and can see her too busy to heal his physical injuries to notice his amnesia until he mentioned it right before the Salamandras attacked. The following events in Kaer Morhen did not allow them to investigate the matter further; first, the battle with the Salamandras, then Triss had to be healed, then the burial and then immediately everyone went off.

However, then act III starts. Not only do they now have plenty of time to party, quest and play dice at their leisure. We also learn immediately that Triss did poke around in his memories right at the start of this act. And she did investigate the amnesia as well.

Given what Yennefer tells us in TW3, about her encounter with the Nilfgardian mages, it is clear that Triss could easily and quickly have resolved the amnesia at this point.

Instead, Triss engages instantly in sexual activities with Geralt and tells him that he should instead develop a new identity. Not much later, she tries to snare him into a marriage-like setup with a foster child and an engagement ring.

And she does this after reading his memories. After watching his memories of him and Yennefer on the isle of Avalon. After seeing him sacrificing his life or his soul for Yennefer to the Wild Hunt. After seeing what she already knew: how absolutely important Yennefer was to him. And after seeing that Yennefer is probably still alive, since Letho and friends were present during the soul trade.

That is simply unforgivable.

I would never call a relationship based on such a huge amount of falsehood and lies as "healthier", "less complicated" or "more stable" than a relationship he formed when he had all the information available and on his own free will.
 
I would never call a relationship based on such a huge amount of falsehood and lies as "healthier", "less complicated" or "more stable" than a relationship he formed when he had all the information available and on his own free will.

Neither would I, if only there was no presented fact, that these relations, based on so "horrible" ground are really more healthier, less complicated and etc., and "forgiveness" or "unforgiveness" has nothing to do with it.
 
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Neither would I, if only there was no presented fact, that these relations, based on so "horrible" ground are really more healthier, less complicated and etc., and "forgiveness" or "unforgiveness" has nothing to do with it.

There is no fact that one relationship is healthier or better than the other. There are just opinions based on interpretations of facts.
 
I didn't say - better. And about "healthier" - ok. I agree. It strongly depends on what someone put in a meaning of this word.

"Healthy" is such an arbitrary way to describe a relationship that you can saddle its interpretation with whatever strikes your fancy. It doesn't mean anything specific. It's an umbrella term that hints at something that works. But pretty much anything can work, given how many people there are in the world and how different we all are. That was my point.
 
"Healthy" is such an arbitrary way to describe a relationship that you can saddle its interpretation with whatever strikes your fancy. It doesn't mean anything specific. It's an umbrella term that hints at something that works. But pretty much anything can work, given how many people there are in the world and how different we all are. That was my point.

Yes. But something could work better, than other. (ofc again question appears - "What are the criteria?") That's why could be used word "healthier". Or it could be used in direct form - describing less self-destructing relations, that spares nervous system. Depends on interpretation. :)
 
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Yes. But something could work better, than other. (ofc again question appears - "What are the criteria?") That's why could be used word "healthier". Or it could be used in direct form - describing less self-destructing relations, that spares nervous system. Depends on interpretation. :)

Of course. I think it's clear we agree on that one. I believe differences of opinion in regards to the morals, ethics, emotions and actions attributed to these fictional characters can be discussed without proselytizing and defensiveness. Just because we all have our minds made up one way of another doesn't mean conversations should be doomed from the start.
 
There is even more to it. The relationship also has the side of Triss.

Now, forgive me, but I do not know much about Triss in the books before Times of Contempt. I know that she was involved in the early stages of Ciri's education at Kaer Morhen. That Triss was infatuated with Geralt and jealous of Yennefer's relationship with him. That she had sex with him one time, using magic to get him into her bed. That, on the journey to Kaer Morhen, she had a bout of diarrhea and Geralt had to help her with latrine business, and that she became more infatuated in the process of that. And that she finally admitted in Kaer Morhen that she was not experienced or talented enough to be in charge of Ciri's magical education, so Yennefer was called in.

While I am not sure of the order of these details, they give me a picture of a (relatively) young, talented but inexperienced sorceress, who's insecure but gets along well. Contact with Geralt, however, turns her manipulative (seducing with magic) and helpless (a talented magic healer like Triss really has no cure for diarrhea?)

I will now look at her development from books and games which I am more familiar with than with the previous tidbits.

In the books, starting at Time of Contempt, she was obviously not in a relationship with Geralt. She used her time by herself to advance in the ranks of the mages, until she actually was invited by Philippa to be part of the lodge - that secret organization consisting of what Phil thought to be the greatest and most talented sorceresses in existence. Now while she may or may not have ended up in there only because she had a relationship with Phil at the time - Triss apparently did well for herself on her own. She had a career, friends, power. Split off from Geralt, she actually did grow so much in power that she manifested that "Merigold's Hailstorm" at the progrom of Rivia that became famous later on.

This state continued during Geralt's absence. She became an esteemed advisor of King Foltest, solidly involved in the Lodge still, accepted and respected by the witchers of the wolf school, powerful enough to clearly contribute at the battle against the Salamandras at TW1's start in Kaer Morhen.

However, now that Geralt was back and that they had contact, things began to go downhill again. Her desire to show off her power against Azar Javed failed, and she was back to requiring help - which Geralt was of course glad to provide, yet again. It really spirals downhill from there. When she's finally in a pseudo-marriage "family" with Geralt, as the custodian of Alvin, she apparently can't even recall that she is actually a sorceress when the Salamandras kidnap him from out of Triss' own house. She tries to fight for him by kicking them and by screaming, not with magic. Formidable effort of course... but why didn't she just blast them with her lightning based magic spells from TW1's prologue?

It gets even worse in TW2. Triss casts a protective sphere against arrows (her cloud of butterflies) and instantly passes out. That was about her only magical contribution in TW2, except for the attempt in the elven bath (if resisting there, Geralt gets magical resistance, so there was magic seduction involved again). She spends the rest of this game in a damsel in distress position, despite the odd fact that her shackles didn't even look like made of dimeritium in the Nilfgardian camp.

The pattern of "helpless and kind of stupid while in contact with Geralt; powerful if not in contact with Geralt" is even more clear in TW3.

At the start of TW3, Triss had established a nice existence for herself in the heart of the wealthy center of Novigrad, an expensive house right at Hierarch Square. Then of course, the witch hunt starts and she has to go into hiding - even while doing that, she does great for herself though. She is the leader of that group of mages, the one who keeps them under protection of the King of Beggars. She is the one who does the negotiating with their protector. Even in hding, she is still strong. Yes, she has swapped from lightning to the instable element of fire, but she is still doing fine for herself.

Enter Geralt.

Immediately in the granary, you can notice that her spells against the witchhunters don't actually do anything at all except being very theatric. She is back to relying totally on Geralt to help her. Her behaviour during A Matter of Life and Death cannot be called sensible or intelligent by anyone - taking off the mask while people are nearby, getting drunk and that ridiculous attempt to get a kiss... all while there were clearly witnesses and witchhunters nearby. Yeah, sure.

This continues quite extremely until one vitally important point: Refusing her to help at the start of Now or Never. During Now or Never, if played as a helpful Geralt who of course wouldn't refuse to help Triss in that situation, either the Innkeep of the Kingfisher, Olivier, or one or both of the mages, Anise and Bernard, will die. However, if you refuse to help Triss at this point, Triss will somehow manage to do this part of the quest with keeping all three of these alive. You can witness that by later going to the Kingfisher; the quest's progress halts there for you. Olivier will greet you and open the door to the hiding place. And in the hiding place, Bernard and Anise will be. All alive and well. Triss did well on her own. Much better than in teamwork with Geralt.

And then at Kaer Morhen, her magical abilites have grown once again. I can easily explain this in my playthroughs by the fact that she is now clearly not in a relationship with Geralt anymore. The playthroughs of others might change the view on this, but there is also the sudden bout of jealousy (because of the kiss Yennefer gave Geralt) that might have given her this sudden and rather unexpected boost maybe.


So, the general pattern is this:

Triss is in contact / in hope to get a relationship with Geralt => Triss falls into a "helpless little girl who needs a protector" role
Triss by herself => Triss does great


A relationship under this angle does also not look quite "healthy" at all to me.
 
Given what Yennefer tells us in TW3, about her encounter with the Nilfgardian mages, it is clear that Triss could easily and quickly have resolved the amnesia at this point.

Instead, Triss engages instantly in sexual activities with Geralt and tells him that he should instead develop a new identity. Not much later, she tries to snare him into a marriage-like setup with a foster child and an engagement ring.

And she does this after reading his memories. After watching his memories of him and Yennefer on the isle of Avalon. After seeing him sacrificing his life or his soul for Yennefer to the Wild Hunt. After seeing what she already knew: how absolutely important Yennefer was to him. And after seeing that Yennefer is probably still alive, since Letho and friends were present during the soul trade.

That is simply unforgivable.

I would never call a relationship based on such a huge amount of falsehood and lies as "healthier", "less complicated" or "more stable" than a relationship he formed when he had all the information available and on his own free will.

This is all simply your headcanon. There's no suggestion at all in the game that Triss' inability to undo the amnesia is anything but genuine. There's no suggestion she is aware of Yen being alive prior to TW2. Personally i find her starting a relationship with Geralt completely forgiveable and the healthy relationship that can emerge from this just as viable.
 
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