Purpose and interaction of/with objects and mechanics

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From a technical, marketing, and brand-name standpoint, if I was in charge of a big corpo, and my corpo was making tech, and I lived in an environment where acid rain was a well known hazard, my product would be pretty crap if I couldn't sell something that could stand up to a little rain, acid rain or no, better than meat.

Metal is suppose to be better than meat, no? It's part of the advertising propaganda and marketing.

In that sense, I could see rain, any kind of rain causing problems with off-brand, generic, imitation, bottom of the market, second-hand, last generation cyberware and gear.
Name brand, just fell off the truck, right out of the box? Ehhh, no, regardless of whether you buy the product legit or not, that's just bad business for the corpo to have any rumors about their gear floating around that it's prone to such shoddy sub standard performance to be effected by or compromised by a little rain.
It's even worse business for corpos that advertise military grade, warzone tough quality. I'm sure there's worse things than civilian grade acid rain to worry about in war zones and battlefields.

With that, it might be fun and interesting to have those off-brand budget knock-off versions of cyberware and gear available as a choice; advertising more and better features than the name brand stuff, for 10% less the cost than Kiroshi, Miltech, or some other big corpo name brand too ... but, you walk away thinking you've got a good deal, only to find glitchy, unreliable, you bought cheap so you got cheap quality performance.
It fritzes out in the rain, it might spark on occasion, it makes weird noises, and other little annoyances that you might think are normal, because you don't really know any better ... until you eventually get something genuine top self name brand.
:)

Of course, that wellspring of shame and disappointment could be double poisoned where there might actually be a diamond in the rough; some jangley-looking prototype nonsense that somehow wound up in the shop from no-one knows where, but, it does ALL the things better, for half the humanity cost, but, it's ugly as all get out, and, even trying to install it might, maybe have permanent risks associated with a failure to install it ... or something like that where there's something really unbalanced and stupid where you will least expect it, and will probably overlook it, and even if you don't overlook it, it might be something you want to think two or three times about taking a risk on.
eh.
 
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To start it, what is your opinion on some of these?
  1. What should be the interactions and game mechanics related to the monorail train - so to call it - which could be seen both in the demo and trailer? Should there be some ticket selling mechanism, unpassable tourniquets, arrival/depart boards,...? How should the crowds/trains AI react to doors being blocked by something - I could imagine that if all the doors aren't closed the train will never leave the station...?
Some manner of train system would be fine. However, using it should feel relatively seamless and easy.

I don't want it to be like in Deus Ex: MK, where it serves as a long loading screen and irrelevant cutscene during travel between two relatively small areas. That is too disruptive.

Perhaps train should work like in GTA5, where it exists in the same instance as the main game, so there is no loading screen.
 
Acid rain is in the lore but it seems stupid in this game . I am not a chemist but wouldn`t acid rain burn / melt everything ? The roads , cars , buildings the trains and the track ?
 
IMHO they should keep acid rain as lore so it's acidic enough to make harvesting difficult but not that acidic to damage people in short term. So you can see the environment affected by it but it doesn't affect gameplay.
 
Acid rain is in the lore but it seems stupid in this game . I am not a chemist but wouldn`t acid rain burn / melt everything ? The roads , cars , buildings the trains and the track ?

not intrinsicly, "acid" just means a ph lower than 7, our skin for instance has a ph of under 6 most of the time, is why soap which is usually a base (ph of over 7) dries your skin out. so the rain could be ph 6.5, buildings and animals etc notice nothing but it could still fuck with the soil chemistry.

something like hydrochloric acid has a ph of 0, which is the kind of acids you are thinking of where it would melt stuff. the world would also be dead.
 
not intrinsicly, "acid" just means a ph lower than 7, our skin for instance has a ph of under 6 most of the time, is why soap which is usually a base (ph of over 7) dries your skin out. so the rain could be ph 6.5, buildings and animals etc notice nothing but it could still fuck with the soil chemistry.

something like hydrochloric acid has a ph of 0, which is the kind of acids you are thinking of where it would melt stuff. the world would also be dead.
No guys, that's not how pH (written this way, since it's -log[H^+]) works. pH is an indication of the concentration of acids, to keep it very simple.

What you guys are looking for is the pKa (again, written this way) and again you can't directly assume that a stronger acid (lower pKa) is better at dissolving via reactivity (NOT melting, that's a change in physical states form solid to liquid, ie ice->water) things than a weaker acid. It's absolutely not that simple.

Moreover, acid rains are not made by hydrochloric acid (which, btw, is a gas and the one you find in supermarkets is water solution of it in water (37% is the highest you can make)), I just used it in a previous post as an example not related to acid rains.

And absolutely NO, "acid" doesn't simply mean "pH<7", that's the definition of an acidic solution, which is quite different.
Can we move forward before I start an high-school lesson about chemistry and mods will ban me, please? :sad:
 
I'm a chemist too and I cringed at the thought of HCl on bare skin.
Better then the C4H10FO2P I used to work with.

(( And I'm most definitely NOT a chemist. I know how to make certain specific things because I needed to. Anything beyond that is Greek ... well mostly Latin ... to me. ))
 
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Sild

Ex-moderator
And absolutely NO, "acid" doesn't simply mean "pH<7", that's the definition of an acidic solution, which is quite different.

Aaah, that must be it then, "acidic rain", small but important distinction as you pointed out.
I'm pretty sure as long as the Earth's orbital characteristics remain roughly the same, "rain" will be mostly water in any case.
 
Basically, acids are molecules and chemical solutions with a strong surplus of Hydrogen Ions (H+). Those guys are REALLY unhappy with themselves since their atomic orbits are out of whack. They have WAY too many electrons compared to the ideal balance that every atom would like to have (like the noble gasses), and will try to seek out other molecules to share their burden with.

PH is the measure of the amount of Hydrogen Ions in solution.
Their pKa is the measure of how unhappy those Hydrogen Ions are.


In a low pKa solution, the hydrogen ions are sorta unhappy with their environment and will drift around restlessly, but they're not unhappy enough to get violent. They'll loosely attach themselves to other partner molecules present in their environment for some relief, which the partner will give, but afterwards they're okay with detaching and switching places with others. The water also calms it down a little.

Introduce a low pKa solution to your skin and the hydrogen ions will react to your skin. They'll irritate, but they're still too busy with the rest of their solution to do much real damage.


In a high pKa solution, the hydrogen ions are REALLY unhappy. In a famous solution like Hydrochloric acid, their are no partners in their environment willing to give them any relief. The chlorine makes the hydrogen INCREDIBLY unhappy and there's not enough water to calm the hydrogen down. Nearly all of the hydrogen is about ready to start a violent riot.

Introduce THAT to your skin and the hydrogen will brutally rip the molecular structure of your epidermis apart in its quest to be whole and beautiful again, pretty much transforming your meatly organized biology into molecular mush.
 
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Aaah, that must be it then, "acidic rain", small but important distinction as you pointed out.
I'm pretty sure as long as the Earth's orbital characteristics remain roughly the same, "rain" will be mostly water in any case.
"acid rain" is the official word, but yes, those are solutions.

Are you a mod now? :cool:

Basically, acids are molecules and chemical solutions with a strong surplus of Hydrogen Ions (H+). Those guys are REALLY unhappy with themselves since their atomic orbits are out of whack. They have WAY too many electrons compared to the ideal balance that every atom would like to have (like the noble gasses), and will try to seek out other molecules to share their burden with.

PH is the measure of the amount of Hydrogen Ions in solution.
Their pKa is the measure of how unhappy those Hydrogen Ions are.


In a low pKa solution, the hydrogen ions are sorta unhappy with their environment and will drift around restlessly, but they're not unhappy enough to get violent. They'll loosely attach themselves to other partner molecules present in their environment for some relief, which the partner will give, but afterwards they're okay with detaching and switching places with others. The water also calms it down a little.

Introduce a low pKa solution to your skin and the hydrogen ions will react to your skin. They'll irritate, but they're still too busy with the rest of their solution to do much real damage.


In a high pKa solution, the hydrogen ions are REALLY unhappy. In a famous solution like Hydrochloric acid, their are no partners in their environment willing to give them any relief. The chlorine makes the hydrogen INCREDIBLY unhappy and there's not enough water to calm the hydrogen down. Nearly all of the hydrogen is about ready to start a violent riot.

Introduce THAT to your skin and the hydrogen will brutally rip the molecular structure of your epidermis apart in its quest to be whole and beautiful again, pretty much transforming your meatly organized biology into molecular mush.
:cry: guys, can we stop with chemistry, please?

Lewis acids don't have protons and are the most accurate and broadest definition of acids. So no, it's not just about protons.

pKa has nothing to do with solutions, it's the dissociation constant, a characteristic of acids.

Usually in nature we have buffer solutions, and this makes things even more complex.

We are really going OT and there's no reason to give wrong info about chemistry, nor there's a reason to give a detailed explaination.

What is enough to know for a CP universe is that acids affect skin more than common "metals" (in a broad definition").
 
Oh boy... I’ve talked about this quite a lot and often in detail during the years.

I’d have (and have had) a ton to say, but there’s a limit to post length and I’m not exactly sure how ”worth it” it would be a this point anymore to start writing longwinded multipost essays about interactivity and game mechanics (people tend to pass those by).

Needless to say, though, I’d want interactivity and their related game mechanics to go through the roof. There’d be bound to be a lot of small things, that might seem insignificant at a glance, but not everything needs to turn the world upside down. However, the more there is stuff linked to mechanics and systems, the more worthwhile and interesting performing those actions will feel.

Something as simple as sitting down on a park bench or a bar stool, or inspectibg a graffiti or a poster on a wall feels much more significant and intriguing if there is a chance/promise of some form of systemic relevance (how ever small) to it.
For what it's worth, I've read the vast majority of your long-winded posts. But that was many years ago, you've since stopped typing them up (Which is understandable).

More to the topic: I pretty much agree with everything @Rawls said. I'd also like to add that, while I'm OK with loading screen fast travels, I do hope we have the option to actually sit in a train/monorail as it traverses the city. Since we will not be able to fly aerodynes ourselves, I would very much enjoy some other way to see the city from various vantage points in motion. :)
 
you've since stopped typing them up

Got fed up repeating myself. And if CDPR has had an interest on those sorts of discussions, they’ve certainly seen them already, which has been the main reason of posting them in the first place. And if not, then not. I don’t think there’s much point in spitballing design ideas anymore.
 
More to the topic: I pretty much agree with everything @Rawls said. I'd also like to add that, while I'm OK with loading screen fast travels, I do hope we have the option to actually sit in a train/monorail as it traverses the city. Since we will not be able to fly aerodynes ourselves, I would very much enjoy some other way to see the city from various vantage points in motion. :)
I'd like to ride the train around the city once. And using it as a fast travel loading screen makes good sense.

But let's not make the mistake Andromeda (and many other games) made by forcing the player to endure the same drawn out cinematic over-and-over-and-over every time they travel.
 
I'd like to ride the train around the city once. And using it as a fast travel loading screen makes good sense.

But let's not make the mistake Andromeda (and many other games) made by forcing the player to endure the same drawn out cinematic over-and-over-and-over every time they travel.

They can spice it up by filling it with random interactive NPC’s and even events. Giving a possibility to even get small semi-random missions (like man/infohunts) that you’d get nowhere else.

Or take a nap and wake up at your destination (with a small possibility to oversleep and wake up sonewhere near by) if you can’t be bothered with interactivity.

(I’ve suggested that a few times earlier already.)
 
They we should feel connected to the world like where you run to a door. Your character with actually grab the handle to open the door.

Also having physics based puzzles like in portal or half-life.
 

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This is an RPG, not everything needs to be instant fast travel. The monorail should work in real time, although seeing how fast it is in the gameplay trailer it wouldn't take long to get around the city. If the monorail work both ways, I wouldn't mind but why would anyone want to skip a big part of the game like that? Because even inside the monorail, stuff could happen.
 
Because even inside the monorail, stuff could happen.

Story Time:

Was riding the red line at night in LA when I lived there. A bunch of (about 30 or 40) middle school kids pour in from another car as the train is moving, all wearing the same color and sharpie marked t shirts, both male/female, and start being all loud and stupid. They all stopped and gathered around the doors I was leaning against as we rode to the next stop. They were constantly yelling and throwing signs. A few of them started talking to me about my ear jewelry cause they were stretched, being actually curious.

And they were all cool with me as we talked, but a (probably late 20's) guy gets up with his girlfriend and bumps one of them totally by accident because they were in the way. The train starts pulling up to the stop.

One of them lost it and then all of them lost it. Smack talk extravaganza commence. The doors open and this "Peter Pan battle" pours into the train stop and is still happening partly on the train. People who were waiting at the stop just backed way off. They were looking at me, still leaning on the door, like wtf happened on this train. :shrug:

They all immediately attacked this couple. They all start beating them and started stealing things from them until the guy pulled a gun out of his reusable grocery bag and started threatening to shoot the kids. It was sheer chaos for like 2 minutes because the guy was fighting them off like bugs and couldn't get to his gun quickly.
By time it settled down all the girls from the group were waving around random stuff from the couples' bags and jewelry they snatched off of them. Other kids were scattering, one kid had the guy's shoe. The couples clothes were all torn up. This happened all in front of me, super fast, and I was shook by the absolute absurdity. It was a complete mind fudge moment. Seriously one of the biggest dumb stupid things I've seen.

The train was stalled for like 20 mins, everybody was trying to figure out what was going on from other cars. Myself and the other witnesses around me decided it was all BS and told the train operator not to worry about anything because everyone had scattered. It was the last bus of the night and everyone just wanted to get to their destinations. No cops called, but we all talked about it on our way to our stops. Everyone was like wtf did is just watch...smh, kids these days.

Imagine some scenario, like this one, where your up against a gang of kids in 2077....City of God style.
It wasn't so much about the ages, but because it was like a flash mob of people with nothin to loose.
If things like this happen on the rapid transit in NC then the train is going to be a real interesting ride.
 
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Juv gangs (I refer to them as "Street Rats" because many live on the streets) while not usually (USUALLY) as dangerous as adult street gangs aren't to be taken lightly. And as your story made clear, numbers do matter! And even in Night City killing a bunch of kids is seriously frowned on.
 
Juv gangs (I refer to them as "Street Rats" because many live on the streets) while not usually (USUALLY) as dangerous as adult street gangs aren't to be taken lightly. And as your story made clear, numbers do matter! And even in Night City killing a bunch of kids is seriously frowned on.


Totally agree.

Swarm is one of the most useful attacks against humans.

It's especially effective if it's kids because societal notions say you don't want to kill them. Smart kids in 2077 would probably know that, and some would easily exploit that as a weakness. Plus puberty is like throwing gas on a struck match. Wrap that up in a gang and it sounds like a tragedy waiting to happen.
 
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