Please accommodate both specialists and generalist builds

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Now, this is a problem as old as PnP itself: how do you build encounters that will both provide challenge to highly specialized builds and not immediately crush the jack-of-all-trades. If you scale combat to give the combat-monster PC a proper fight, you risk wiping all non-combat builds in short order. If you make the fight easy enough that anyone with a decent combat skill can get through, the full on murder machines will kill everything in seconds.

Reading that CDPR is actively building around 4 "approaches" (fast solo, strong solo, engineer, hacker) to all encounters has me worried what will happen if you build a character that does not fully commit to one of these approaches. I have personally run into this issue in games before, especially in the Deus Ex series, where for instance I have taken a couple of levels of hacking to allow some basic info gathering, but where every computer you meet after the mid-point of the game is beyond my hacking skill, leaving the points i put there completely wasted. Similarly, DR:HR had mandatory boss fights throughout the game, which were either annoyingly difficult if you specced for sneaking/hacking, or completely trivial if you had specced your character purely for combat.

I hope that Cyberpunk 2077 will make sure that even basic levels of a skill remains useful throughout the game. Seeing some of the gameplay related to hacking in the early game, I am hopeful that this could be the case. Here we have seen that a basic level of hacking will allow you to get some intel on enemy position, with a higher level giving a combat advantage and a high level allowing you to more or less avoid combat. I hope this will be mirrored with the engineering skill, so that you can always find some basic things to do that will at least give you a leg up, even if it wont let you resolve the encounter entirely. Perhaps something like getting more "direct" access to a network giving you an advantage when hacking or being able to do some basic sabotage to make something go boom at the start of a fight.
 
This is the compromise you have to make, when you want to be a jack-of-all-trades. Our DM always remindes us before the character creation: A jack-of-all-trades is a master of none.
My guess is, that you will still be able to utilize some skills you only have very little expertise in, but you can't expect to have very basic hacking capabilities and still use them in high-risk missions. If the security system in that kind of mission is way beyond your hacking skills it really shouldn't matter, if you have a few points in that skill.
 
I hope that Cyberpunk 2077 will make sure that even basic levels of a skill remains useful throughout the game. Seeing some of the gameplay related to hacking in the early game, I am hopeful that this could be the case. Here we have seen that a basic level of hacking will allow you to get some intel on enemy position, with a higher level giving a combat advantage and a high level allowing you to more or less avoid combat. I hope this will be mirrored with the engineering skill, so that you can always find some basic things to do that will at least give you a leg up, even if it wont let you resolve the encounter entirely. Perhaps something like getting more "direct" access to a network giving you an advantage when hacking or being able to do some basic sabotage to make something go boom at the start of a fight.

Some people say they aim in the middle of shooter and RPG mechanics. How you use your skills and how you shoot and move are both as important. I could be wrong here though. Bioware is known for this kind of combat, imho. If they can match to Bioware's game, like Anthem, they are just fine.
 
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Now, this is a problem as old as PnP itself: how do you build encounters that will both provide challenge to highly specialized builds and not immediately crush the jack-of-all-trades. If you scale combat to give the combat-monster PC a proper fight, you risk wiping all non-combat builds in short order. If you make the fight easy enough that anyone with a decent combat skill can get through, the full on murder machines will kill everything in seconds.

Reading that CDPR is actively building around 4 "approaches" (fast solo, strong solo, engineer, hacker) to all encounters has me worried what will happen if you build a character that does not fully commit to one of these approaches. I have personally run into this issue in games before, especially in the Deus Ex series, where for instance I have taken a couple of levels of hacking to allow some basic info gathering, but where every computer you meet after the mid-point of the game is beyond my hacking skill, leaving the points i put there completely wasted. Similarly, DR:HR had mandatory boss fights throughout the game, which were either annoyingly difficult if you specced for sneaking/hacking, or completely trivial if you had specced your character purely for combat.

I hope that Cyberpunk 2077 will make sure that even basic levels of a skill remains useful throughout the game. Seeing some of the gameplay related to hacking in the early game, I am hopeful that this could be the case. Here we have seen that a basic level of hacking will allow you to get some intel on enemy position, with a higher level giving a combat advantage and a high level allowing you to more or less avoid combat. I hope this will be mirrored with the engineering skill, so that you can always find some basic things to do that will at least give you a leg up, even if it wont let you resolve the encounter entirely. Perhaps something like getting more "direct" access to a network giving you an advantage when hacking or being able to do some basic sabotage to make something go boom at the start of a fight.

It seems like they are going the perk path in this game, meaning that would probably be ok to do one kind of thing in hacking with a few specialized point in it, but you'll just do that one thing.

Personally my murderous V will still have some perk in hack for data/paydata search , but probably won't be able to use environment against ennemies.
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If they can match to Bioware's game, like Anthem, they are just fine.

:facepalm:
 
I think personally it should quite fun if they went with little bit harder combat but Trauma Team was there to back you up if you die. At least I cant remember any game what does that, so you die regularly but Trauma Team is there, then if you're pro player, you can play without Trauma or then just tell them to go.
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[QUOTE="KakitaTatsumaru, post: 11635888, member: 3788259")
:facepalm:[/QUOTE]

Something wrong with Anthem? I think Bioware's combat is quite nice, especially its even gear based. They have really found the "sweet" spot.
 
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Reading that CDPR is actively building around 4 "approaches" (fast solo, strong solo, engineer, hacker) to all encounters has me worried what will happen if you build a character that does not fully commit to one of these approaches. I have personally run into this issue in games before, especially in the Deus Ex series, where for instance I have taken a couple of levels of hacking to allow some basic info gathering, but where every computer you meet after the mid-point of the game is beyond my hacking skill, leaving the points i put there completely wasted.

This could be relatively easily solved if the skills outside combat were less about linear gated progression and more about weighted opportunity.

But what you get is what you get, so...
 
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It seems like they are going the perk path in this game, meaning that would probably be ok to do one kind of thing in hacking with a few specialized point in it, but you'll just do that one thing.

Except that what we have seen so far, actions require a hard "Hacking 4" or "Engineering 8" check. There does not seem to be "sub-skills" that you can specialize in so that you can do one type of hack well, but not other types. Or that you your level 4 engineering means you have enough gunsmithing skill to fix any gun, but not enough electrical know-how to short-circuit an automated turret. This is what worries me, in that it requires CDPR to make "low-level" checks available throughout the game, rather than being able to specialize and say I can do certain types of hacks, with dedicated netrunners being able to do all kinds and "dabblers" only able to execute some types.
 
So here they say this.. https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-combat-weapons-details/

"Rowley has declared that the game is not a shooter, but instead, very much an RPG. Rowley stated, “It’s a role-playing game with some shooter elements, rather than a shooter with role-playing laid on top of it. There’s very deep progression systems, so all the things you’d expect from a CD Projekt game.” Al things considered, Cyberpunk definitely sounds like an ambitious project worth"

So its RPG with shooter elements. Hmm, very deep progression system sounds fun.
 
Reading that CDPR is actively building around 4 "approaches" (fast solo, strong solo, engineer, hacker)...
Huh? Where did you got that from? From last years gameplay demo, I only see 3 main approaches:

Guns-Blazing - Sneaking - Talking

And from your 4 (somewhat vague) suggestions, I kinda see only 2. Fast solo and strong solo seem the same, except one kills faster then the other. Engineer and Hacker also seem closely related to each other, because almost anything that would require engineering, would also require hacking. It's like a car mechanic, hooking up a computer for diagnostics/repairs nowadays.

Aside from that, this years (currently still behind closed doors) gameplay demo, already showed, that hacking will be usable in the mids of action, akin to hacking enemies cyberware/implants/environment on the fly. I would assume, we will be able to specialize in multiple things (if not even all at the same time) and blend them, like using hacking not only during sneaking, but also in the middle of full on action.

How to balance it? My suggestion would be: Make the enemies tough for action, make them perceptive for sneaking, and fast talking for dialogs. Because here is the thing, their toughness only matters for action, their perception only for sneaking, and their talking only for dialogs, and all three serve as a perfect punishment when the player fails in the other. Problem solved...

...kinda, since I don't know what CDPR is actually up to.
 
If its leaning forward RPG, they usually solve it with respec, if you see yourself in wrong build, just respec.
 
“It’s a role-playing game with some shooter elements, rather than a shooter with role-playing laid on top of it. There’s very deep progression systems, so all the things you’d expect from a CD Projekt game.”

It's an ambiguous line that. "RPG with shooter elements - Shooter with RPG laid on top". Where does one end and the otherone begin as far as gameplay goes? And what is a "shooter element" to begin with in this context?

Furthermore, the progressionsystems in previous CDPR games were anything but deep, so the conclusions to draw from that last line are also a bit on thin ice.
 
So here they say this.. https://gamerant.com/cyberpunk-2077-combat-weapons-details/

"Rowley has declared that the game is not a shooter, but instead, very much an RPG. Rowley stated, “It’s a role-playing game with some shooter elements, rather than a shooter with role-playing laid on top of it. There’s very deep progression systems, so all the things you’d expect from a CD Projekt game.” Al things considered, Cyberpunk definitely sounds like an ambitious project worth"

So its RPG with shooter elements. Hmm, very deep progression system sounds fun.

Old.
It's an Action-adventure game with RPG elements.
Source: Most sources on this forum directly speaking of gameplay mechanics themselves instead of just saying directly what genre it's supposed to be.
But will have good story so I'll stil buy. Well, not, I've already won it in a lottery.
 
It's an ambiguous line that. "RPG with shooter elements - Shooter with RPG laid on top". Where does one end and the otherone begin as far as gameplay goes? And what is a "shooter element" to begin with in this context?

Furthermore, the progressionsystems in previous CDPR games were anything but deep, so the conclusions to draw from that last line are also a bit on thin ice.

Well Im not that into combat. Ive played million different kind of combat during my days.

But answer for OP is respec, thats how they usually fix weak/strong builds.
 
Huh? Where did you got that from?

From here:
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...e-heard-so-far-about-cyberpunk-2077.11008534/

How to balance it? My suggestion would be: Make the enemies tough for action, make them perceptive for sneaking, and fast talking for dialogs. Because here is the thing, their toughness only matters for action, their perception only for sneaking, and their talking only for dialogs, and all three serve as a perfect punishment when the player fails in the other.

Well, if all actions require high "skill", then you have the exact situation where anyone not maxing out one of them is going to have a hard time. If fx. you are split between sneaking and talking, you won't be able to beat a "hard" enemy either way, which will then push you into combat which you might not have invested any "points" in at all. So because you did not max out any one thing, you are now pushed to resolve encounters in the worst possible way for the character you built.
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But answer for OP is respec, thats how they usually fix weak/strong builds.

It is not so much a matter of a certain combination of skills is bad, as much as not sticking to a single "class" would be weak. So if you just stayed in your lane, doing the same type of gameplay all through the game you would never need to respec (except maybe from boredom).
 
But answer for OP is respec, thats how they usually fix weak/strong builds.

Well, my opinion of respec is that it's kind of an intentional cheat to cover up the failure of managing proper systems that stay interesting and viable throughout. It kinda undermines the whole purpose of the systems existing in the first place that the player can flipflop at will between characterbuilds and in doing so making past choices and commitments null; or even not make sense anymore, since you were able to do something with your specific characterbuild and it had some consequences, but now all of a sudden you're unable to do that something again, but the consequences remain.

I'd say there is a central flaw in the design in terms of how the systems interact with and create the intended experience, if a respec is actually required. It doesn't really flatter the game.
 
Well, my opinion of respec is that it's kind of an intentional cheat to cover up the failure of managing proper systems that stay interesting and viable throughout. It kinda undermines the whole purpose of the systems existing in the first place that the player can flipflop at will between characterbuilds and in doing so making past choices and commitments null; or even not make sense anymore, since you were able to do something with your specific characterbuild and it had some consequences, but now all of a sudden you're unable to do that something again, but the consequences remain.

I'd say there is a central flaw in the design in terms of how the systems interact with and create the intended experience, if a respec is actually required. It doesn't really flatter the game.

I've totally forgotten that!
Now I'll see V as some kind of metamorph too.
So new concept: Murderous Metamorph Cyberfuta !
So much better than social V which have to think twice before putting on any cyberware!
 
Well, my opinion of respec is that it's kind of an intentional cheat to cover up the failure of managing proper systems that stay interesting and viable throughout. It kinda undermines the whole purpose of the systems existing in the first place that the player can flipflop at will between characterbuilds and in doing so making past choices and commitments null; or even not make sense anymore, since you were able to do something with your specific characterbuild and it had some consequences, but now all of a sudden you're unable to do that something again, but the consequences remain.

I'd say there is a central flaw in the design in terms of how the systems interact with and create the intended experience, if a respec is actually required. It doesn't really flatter the game.

Flipflopping definitely makes them look amateurish. I wouldnt want that personally. Too much RPG does that too. Hopefully they get it right.
 
Flipflopping definitely makes them look amateurish. I wouldnt want that personally. Too much RPG does that too. Hopefully they get it right.

Anyone remember the "Dark Emporium DLC" for Dragon Age 2? Sure we will let you respec your broken character, just sign up to our online store...
 
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