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No they are not.
Players are in different situations and places always, and this is the problem. You can exploit environment differently, or cheat more easily in some situations.
Dude if you think that is cheating fine, you talking about MP where again if both have TPP and same tools they have equal chances to win, this is single player game and you play against ai.
Year ago they say you know HUD is so full of stuff it won't work in TPP, from demo we see it is normal HUD that would work in TPP, hell Batman Arkham games have same HUD.
They say in FPP during dialogue you can see interesting item or object and pointed at it and maybe get new dialoge, great they add find hidden object game in main game, in rpg i want that my character base of his stats and skills find new item or object and dialoge option, and not to spend 30 minute in FPP looking for hidden stuff hoping for some new dialoge or event.
City is much better in FPP, ok great but it is a city and nothing more, honestly Night City is nothing special even today there are city who are biger and better looking, also city is not so tight pack that TPP won't work, Batman Arkham City, GTA, Spiderman, Max Payne, Division 1 and 2 all have TPP that work fine in City.
Year ago they say you know HUD is so full of stuff it won't work in TPP, from demo we see it is normal HUD that would work in TPP, hell Batman Arkham games have same HUD.
They say in FPP during dialogue you can see interesting item or object and pointed at it and maybe get new dialoge, great they add find hidden object game in main game, in rpg i want that my character base of his stats and skills find new item or object and dialoge option, and not to spend 30 minute in FPP looking for hidden stuff hoping for some new dialoge or event.
City is much better in FPP, ok great but it is a city and nothing more, honestly Night City is nothing special even today there are city who are biger and better looking, also city is not so tight pack that TPP won't work, Batman Arkham City, GTA, Spiderman, Max Payne, Division 1 and 2 all have TPP that work fine in City.
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Let's say that you and me play some TPP MP game. I am sneaking on some higher position like a 3 floor building, and you are below. With a simple camera move i can easily spot you, but you can't spot me because i'm too high for your camera.
Case closed.
I don't have problems with any perspective, but properly done shooter in a FPP is a different beast. The game just feels more real, especially if you play it with the mouse.
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So you use your situational awareness to get advantage over me, that is tactic and not cheating, stuff you just describe can happen in FPP to, and this game was supposed to be RPG first, but look like they change it to action FPS, to get more people from COD and Battlefield and Pubg, lets see if MP for Cyberpunk 2077 end with Deathmatch and Battle Royale mod.
There are good FPS in both FPP and TPP perspective, you like FPP more that is good and fine i respect that, i like TPP more game is more alive that way, i can see my character all the time, douing all the game activity, melee combat always look much better in TPP, shooting also can be really good in TPP, taking cover, you character facial expressions during dialogue, all of that make me more connected to my character and that game world and it make game much more fun to play, but almost all that go out of window in FPP.
I thought of this for quite a long time and can sympathize with both sides here. On one side, I prefer FPP much more when it comes to shooter elements and sneaking. This is probably mostly due to the games I grew up with, like Half Life, Counter Strike (1.6, I believe?), Unreal Tournament, Quake, or Thief I & II, which I knew like the back of my hand. More FPS games followed, so I am very well accustomed with them.
On the other side, I also grew up with classic RPG's like, Baldur's Gates, Fallout, or Arcanum, which technically have a isometric perspective, but I liked it to see the characters. But the first two games that got me into TPP, were Gothic, and Heavy Metal F.A.K.K.²...
...and boy, did Julie stirred up my puberty
and I would lie to say, that I like TPP for other reasons then to goggle over the sexy backside, of a skimpily dressed babe,... preferably when doing acrobatics during combat. Kinda pointless to say, that Tomb Raider followed quite quickly, among other games with female player models.
So I would like to add a suggestion how a nice FPP/TPP mix could be established for CP77, which came to me when I thought about the considered photo mode:
Imagine you found a nice spot you want to take a photo, but you want V full in frame. You press the button for photo mode, V fingers a little drone out of the pocket. It lifts of the palm, hovers for a second and zips out of view. Then the camera shifts to traditional TPP, basically V takes control over the drone, which allows you to get V fully into the frame for the shot.
Such a drone could possibly also be deployed in combat, either to establish a traditional TPP camera, or to maneuver the drone through the environment for gathering tactical intel, like enemy positions and such.
I remember Splinter Cell (Chaos Theory, I think?) in which it was possible to shoot little cameras at walls and ceiling, to get better view on areas with lots of blind-spots, to use them as temporary security cameras to spy on guard patrol routes, or even for distractions and to knockout guards with sleeping gas.
Lastly, the game is set in a world where such drones could easily exist, and I would like too see, that CDPR would explore that side as far as they can.
But I'll be fine either way.
On the other side, I also grew up with classic RPG's like, Baldur's Gates, Fallout, or Arcanum, which technically have a isometric perspective, but I liked it to see the characters. But the first two games that got me into TPP, were Gothic, and Heavy Metal F.A.K.K.²...
...and boy, did Julie stirred up my puberty
and I would lie to say, that I like TPP for other reasons then to goggle over the sexy backside, of a skimpily dressed babe,... preferably when doing acrobatics during combat. Kinda pointless to say, that Tomb Raider followed quite quickly, among other games with female player models.So I would like to add a suggestion how a nice FPP/TPP mix could be established for CP77, which came to me when I thought about the considered photo mode:
Imagine you found a nice spot you want to take a photo, but you want V full in frame. You press the button for photo mode, V fingers a little drone out of the pocket. It lifts of the palm, hovers for a second and zips out of view. Then the camera shifts to traditional TPP, basically V takes control over the drone, which allows you to get V fully into the frame for the shot.
Such a drone could possibly also be deployed in combat, either to establish a traditional TPP camera, or to maneuver the drone through the environment for gathering tactical intel, like enemy positions and such.
I remember Splinter Cell (Chaos Theory, I think?) in which it was possible to shoot little cameras at walls and ceiling, to get better view on areas with lots of blind-spots, to use them as temporary security cameras to spy on guard patrol routes, or even for distractions and to knockout guards with sleeping gas.
Lastly, the game is set in a world where such drones could easily exist, and I would like too see, that CDPR would explore that side as far as they can.
But I'll be fine either way.
I'm pretty sure that including TPP as a standard gameplay option for CP2077 is not going to happen. The concept behind the limitation is an extremely valid design decision. And no, I'm not required to say that. I would still have voted for a TPP approach, despite the challenges it created. However, after weighing the arguments, I support the final decision even though I "lost my vote". (I think it was an insanely hard call.)
I've made this argument several times before, but as it's been quite a while, it's worth revisiting. The word "immersion" was creating a lot of static. What is meant there is that the player character and the camera are more immersed in the world. It's a matter of literal perspective, speaking in terms of cinematography. Either you are experiencing the world at "ground-level" detail -- or you are not. The camera floating 20-30 feet behind my character (ala TW3) is not "ground-level" detail. It's still very detailed, but it does not allow for the same type of detail or experience that an FPP perspective allows for. TPP also means that the developers cannot "hide" as much about the world, meaning the experience will not be able to put the player in the same types of situations, since they can clearly see more of the world around them from a more omniscient angle. FPP transforms both the energy and gameplay into a much more intimate experience insofar as what you are physically able to observe on the screen. (Staring down the barrel of a gun pointed directly at the camera is not the same energy as watching an enemy point a gun at my character. And this same consideration now ripples into all aspects of the gameplay experience.)
Not preferring an approach does not in any way apply to designing effectively for one approach over the other. And I'll say again that games that try to do both will almost invariably be wonky, as either FPP or TPP will inherently work better overall. The second option will wind up feeling awkward, at least in certain situations. My vote would always be for picking one and sticking with it, even if it means I don't get my preference.
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On the topic of TPP being "cheating", I think that's a pretty extreme stance. As long as all players have access to the same mechanics, then balance can be achieved. There are even techniques (albeit, quite clunky techniques) for some TPP games that will actually vanish other players on the screen if I don't have "FPP" line of sight to them. Myself, I don't really care for how it works at present, but it will be interesting to see where it goes in the future.
I've made this argument several times before, but as it's been quite a while, it's worth revisiting. The word "immersion" was creating a lot of static. What is meant there is that the player character and the camera are more immersed in the world. It's a matter of literal perspective, speaking in terms of cinematography. Either you are experiencing the world at "ground-level" detail -- or you are not. The camera floating 20-30 feet behind my character (ala TW3) is not "ground-level" detail. It's still very detailed, but it does not allow for the same type of detail or experience that an FPP perspective allows for. TPP also means that the developers cannot "hide" as much about the world, meaning the experience will not be able to put the player in the same types of situations, since they can clearly see more of the world around them from a more omniscient angle. FPP transforms both the energy and gameplay into a much more intimate experience insofar as what you are physically able to observe on the screen. (Staring down the barrel of a gun pointed directly at the camera is not the same energy as watching an enemy point a gun at my character. And this same consideration now ripples into all aspects of the gameplay experience.)
Not preferring an approach does not in any way apply to designing effectively for one approach over the other. And I'll say again that games that try to do both will almost invariably be wonky, as either FPP or TPP will inherently work better overall. The second option will wind up feeling awkward, at least in certain situations. My vote would always be for picking one and sticking with it, even if it means I don't get my preference.
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On the topic of TPP being "cheating", I think that's a pretty extreme stance. As long as all players have access to the same mechanics, then balance can be achieved. There are even techniques (albeit, quite clunky techniques) for some TPP games that will actually vanish other players on the screen if I don't have "FPP" line of sight to them. Myself, I don't really care for how it works at present, but it will be interesting to see where it goes in the future.
I hope for TPP mode done by some modder, as of now FPP only will reduce fun i have with a game.
Also, how much FPP can bring out good graphic and details, it also can even more point out bad stuff.
Also, how much FPP can bring out good graphic and details, it also can even more point out bad stuff.
No, that has nothing to do with situational awareness and tactic, but about angle of camera. In TPP you can cheat and see behind the wall with simple camera move, while in the same time your character does not move. And in some situations you have advantage, just like i described in my post.
[Sard Edit: Let's be nicer, thanks.]
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So, what people mean when they speak of TPP being "cheating", typically, is that it forces the offensive player into a serious disadvantage.
Yes, both sides have super-human perception in TPP, but the defender has a tremendous jump on his attacker, as he can see around his cover to attack whereas the other person can't see through objects.
This is extremely significant. FPP removes this issue and ensures that if the defender wants to shoot or see, he has to risk a look.
Both sides can defend, of course, or "camp"/ "turtle" but that makes for verrrrry boring gameplay and is often contrary to the standard of play in the game.
Pretty irrelevant in SP of course, but very relevant in MP PVP.
Yes, both sides have super-human perception in TPP, but the defender has a tremendous jump on his attacker, as he can see around his cover to attack whereas the other person can't see through objects.
This is extremely significant. FPP removes this issue and ensures that if the defender wants to shoot or see, he has to risk a look.
Both sides can defend, of course, or "camp"/ "turtle" but that makes for verrrrry boring gameplay and is often contrary to the standard of play in the game.
Pretty irrelevant in SP of course, but very relevant in MP PVP.
It's certainly relevant in MP PVP. The question is whether it's relevant in CP2077. Even if CP one day has multiplayer it feels like a silly reason to be against TPP. We're not talking a competitive FPS here.
It's not really a reason to be against TPP - just clearing up why "both sides have TPP" doesn't help in MP PvP.
In terms of TPP, that's pretty irrelevant for 2077 too. CDPR has made that clear. They've built their game around it and there are no simple fixes for that, despite people hoping otherwise.
Modding is likely to be the closest solution.
Even with modding it would be hard to implement it because the game is build for fp from the ground up
Yep. Very.
As I've said before, I played Witcher 3 in FPP for the Vive-mod I was using, and it wasn't great. Stopped pretty quickly.
Honestly, I think this is something people are going to have to accept. Not every game you want to be is in Third, not every game you want is in First, not every game is turn based or action oriented or iso and so on.
Can't always etc. as the Stones say.
If your game has true reflections (which Cyberpunk does: you can see yourself in mirrors) and full body animations (which Cyberpunk does), and mod support, a TPP mod can be made. Period. The animations are literally there. They have to be. If you have reflections (that the player isn't forced to stand still in front of), they will be able to move back and forth, side to side, pull out their gun, run around... etc. If you just have the third-person animations as T-Poses or something, that's going to be a MASSIVE immersion breaker the second you walk by a mirror. Not gonna happen.
It does not mean it will be super enjoyable, but it will likely be better than what we got with The Witcher 3's FPP mod. Thing is, it's much easier to make a TPP mod for a FPP game that isn't just a floating camera (important distinction) than it is to make a FPP mod for a TPP game. The control scheme in FPP is generally more immediate and less floaty/clunky (common complaints with TW3).
Kingdom Come: Deliverance has a useable TPP mod, and it's actually pretty gosh darned good for exploration. You'd NEVER use it in combat, but for exploring the world? Absolutely. Works just fine.
Obviously, and this is a huge "if," IF CDPR fails to deliver any kind of mod support, or complete trash for mod support, you can kiss your TPP dreams (and many other mod-related dreams; at least ones that don't occur after 5 years have passed) goodbye.
Unfortunately, given their non-committal stance on the matter, I would not at all be surprised if they went the route of "no soup for you." As was the case with TW3, we will likely have to rely on the community to do CDPR's "job" for them, and make tools of their own, which will either never happen at all or take quite a while.
Will we still get mods even then? Yes, of course! Almost every PC game on the planet, with at least a moderate level of popularity, has some amount of mods. But the scope and possibilities will be extremely limited.
It does not mean it will be super enjoyable, but it will likely be better than what we got with The Witcher 3's FPP mod. Thing is, it's much easier to make a TPP mod for a FPP game that isn't just a floating camera (important distinction) than it is to make a FPP mod for a TPP game. The control scheme in FPP is generally more immediate and less floaty/clunky (common complaints with TW3).
Kingdom Come: Deliverance has a useable TPP mod, and it's actually pretty gosh darned good for exploration. You'd NEVER use it in combat, but for exploring the world? Absolutely. Works just fine.
Obviously, and this is a huge "if," IF CDPR fails to deliver any kind of mod support, or complete trash for mod support, you can kiss your TPP dreams (and many other mod-related dreams; at least ones that don't occur after 5 years have passed) goodbye.
Unfortunately, given their non-committal stance on the matter, I would not at all be surprised if they went the route of "no soup for you." As was the case with TW3, we will likely have to rely on the community to do CDPR's "job" for them, and make tools of their own, which will either never happen at all or take quite a while.
Will we still get mods even then? Yes, of course! Almost every PC game on the planet, with at least a moderate level of popularity, has some amount of mods. But the scope and possibilities will be extremely limited.
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Actually, staying in cover and shooting from there is standard in C2020 where firefights are very X-comish.
But yeah, I supposed running around with a bulletsponge character is more fitting for the player base chased by the dev'.
If you're looking at other visual media and how well it can be pulled off there I can definitely see CDPR's commitment to FPP to work out in the end:
Surprisingly decent as well, and while it doesn't reinvent the wheel with yet another take on ye olde brain/sensory hacking trope Project 2501/Laughing Man-style it does at least succeed in the distinct (visual) execution of it.
Some shots, in particular the FPP ones with the drawn handgun, could have been taken from CP2077 just as well. The "netrunning" (or in this case "etherrunning") sequences look strikingly similar too.
The few instances of characters having a bit of a "sexy time" in Anon also serve as a solid argument (or precedent even) for going all the way with the First-Person-Perspective, including sex scenes in CP2077. Film or game, ultimately it's the same cinematic enactment/staging using the same tools and techniques in either case.
Couple more bits and pieces:
Nice detail there with the hooker (or 'joy girl') getting tipped an additional 20% and, obviously being extra happy about it. Clive Owen's character must have been really pleased with her performance.
Unfortunately that's also what makes or breaks sex scenes from the player's POV. Since you're all up close and personal and 'in the thick of it' there's also a bigger focus on facial expressions to sell the act. If they are not done right (which still is really hard to achieve, especially with technically limited in-game cutscenes) that's pretty much it for the moment as well as the immersion.
They could just put the focus on the groping, fondling and pounding and away from the respective partner's face to avoid any such potential pitfalls though.
You can't compare Movie and Game, movie is much shorter, story develop much faster, less stuff happened over the course of the movie, Anon is not first try of movie in FPP, he is just one of few who are something other than Horror.
No. Not what I meant. In MP, staying in cover means the game bogs down and one party is forced to take the disadvantage to keep things moving.
In Cyberpunk 2020, you cannot simply stay in cover either. it's not X-Com. In dangerous combat with grenades, drones, AP munitions, cover is a brief respite. You have to be fast and accurate to survive. It's not a cover shooter. That's called "pinned down and suppressed" and outside of games where the AI is dumb, will only get you killed.
The devs are chasing nearly all mature players. And outside of some hold-outs who refuse to adapt, will get most of them.
But can you name anything else or recent that had this degree of UI/HUD integration during FPP sequences, for almost throughout the movie?
And since the original Deus Ex (or the System Shocks, if you want go back further) I don't think you can bring up the length argument anymore either. Always takes me at least 20-30 hours to finish that in a satisfactory manner and that about equals the entertainment value of 20 movies, if you'd watch them back to back.
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