But if a cRPG wants to do it off personalities, or the player, or whatever instead of a stat sheet, doesn't that mean that that the designer intended it that way too here? I'm not sure what your distinction means as applied to this game?
Of course there is a distinction there if a game wants to do it one way or the other. Have you ever played a PnP that had a "blind" GM? I have, and I have been that particular GM too. But I don't think that's the issue here. Both games are vastly different simply based on the existence of stats that govern certain things.
And Rawls, please, I've bee drinking so be gentle.
And Rawls, please, I've bee drinking so be gentle.
Sips bourbon.
Nothing. What I meant was, we have these incredible games where we can visually walk around the worlds we used to have to write down only on paper and in our minds. It's true that we won't get the freedom or RPness that the paper world gives us, but in return, we see such wonders and do pretty cool things. Even if you don't like the current RP version that, say, W3 gives us, surely the tradeoff is worth it, to see and experience these worlds?
Also I mentioned paper because literally I'm printing up maps of Hong Kong for my Kowloon Adventures game and about to tape them onto cardboard. Yepppp. Oh and my printer is glitched on magenta, so they are very..green. Which is jade which I guess is thematic? Anyway. Sure would like a fast cheap 3D printer or holocube...
As for the 90s RPG comment, I made it because 90s RPGs fit what you want a lot better than 2020 RPGs, it seems to me.
I get that you absolutely want 90s design/character affecting attributes in modern gaming, ( so do I in many ways) but wouldn't you admit that most of your preferred gaming style and perspectives start with the idea that Fallout 2/Wasteland 1 did it right and work out from there? Those -are- 90s gaming designs. And I do take issue that they were better, frankly. I think W3, arguably RPG-lite in terms of 90s standards, is a fantastic RPG. Fantastic. The tradeoff was well worth it. But it's not very 90s style, no.
No, no no no. You are still disregarding all I have said here before and in the past. I do not want 90's design. I have never wanted 90's design. NOT EVER!
You are not reading me right. And as such, I can not comment on the rest of your post because it is based on things I do not endorse or support or recognize of myself -- or, I would not if told to me as per what I said.
I tried to imply in an earlier post already that this shit was gone and done. I am not asking for a TB 2077. NO. I AM NOT, and have not been for years. And if you want to hear my ideas about combat, you need only to ask me, and I will link to you something that still reflects my desires.
What I am looking for is game design that appreciates the past and does not simply kissass the new. What I want is design that is not ashamed of its heritage, but builds upon it as per what we have. That is all.
But please, read me right. Or if you don't know how, ask. I am more than happy to explain myself.
Anyway, I've had a bottle of whiskey, so I might have misinterpreted you. Apoligies, if so...
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You haven't, he said what you understood and just how you understood.
For the record, '88 FNFF didn't include any more stats than current (as of august 2019s deep dive video) known CP2077 iteration, only switched INT for Movement Allowance (a sort of agility in Fallout), so 90s game design is out of the question, along with stat/skill quantity bloat, which was so popular in late 80s-early90s CRPGs because it's not THAT true to Cyberpunk.
Let's try this again.... Suppose you have a game with stats and skills. Now suppose the player can render them all irrelevant via their personal abilities outside the game systems. Is this in line with an RPG? I'd say no. I'd suspect you'd say no. Thus, the "RPG" part comes from the game systems appropriately enforcing those character attributes upon the player. In a way where they cannot render them irrelevant and must play within them. The stats and skills may or may not exist. This enforcement must exist.
In the context of TTK it's relevant because very low TTK, where a headshot is always a one shot, tends to favor the player stepping outside this enforcement. You often end up with action combat and a progression system behind it. Not always but usually. Hence my apprehension toward extremely low TTK. Even if it fits the source material.
Based on existing evidence it's fair to say this game is going to be like those movies you see. The ones where the movie is based upon or inspired by source material (most of these don't perfectly follow the source). One could cling to this ideal the game is not going to do this and will be a perfect replication of the source material in video game format. Or... one could recognize it's probably not going to be the case and reframe expectations or desires around it.
Of course, I'm personally not one to say anything based on source material must be an exact replication of it. Creative freedom and all. Failure to get this 1:1 comparison doesn't mean the content will be bad. Just... different.
How are those two things mutually exclusive?
Why can't have both?
They just made a choice and that's about it, it's not a matter of possibility but of willingness.
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Actually you can, and those kind of help are usually considered cheats in their multiplayer version (like autoaim for example).
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More upset because stats doesn't increase accuracy actually.
It's not like there was not dozens of ways to implement skills inside combats without making it a turn based game.
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Loved that part, you made my point far better than me and without having to use actual real life experience which can be twisted by insisting the importance of a single word while ignoring the whole point.
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Ah shit. Seems like the devs are looking at this thread?
It's hard to tell to be honest.
Ah well. Hopefully this game isn't a burden to mod.
It's hard to tell to be honest.
Ah well. Hopefully this game isn't a burden to mod.
1, 9, and 10 for me.
I don't like when fights drag on and on. 5 or so seconds of shooting one target should be pretty much able to drop anything. Provided one is using the right tool for the right job, of course. If not...well, I'm only going to last 5 seconds or so, then.
Leveling up should increase the complexity of the engagements, employing chrome and using the environment more effectively to survive, not simply increasing everything's hit-point pool so that more of my ammo and time is wasted to achieve the same, ultimate effect.
I'm still hoping as well for battles to end with people running away (...or trying to!), and that should affect the player character's rep.
For "boss fights", I don't mind them being a bit longer, but I just don't want to be forced do the same thing 6 times. I mean, if the big, ol' military mech needs to:
I don't like when fights drag on and on. 5 or so seconds of shooting one target should be pretty much able to drop anything. Provided one is using the right tool for the right job, of course. If not...well, I'm only going to last 5 seconds or so, then.
Leveling up should increase the complexity of the engagements, employing chrome and using the environment more effectively to survive, not simply increasing everything's hit-point pool so that more of my ammo and time is wasted to achieve the same, ultimate effect.
I'm still hoping as well for battles to end with people running away (...or trying to!), and that should affect the player character's rep.
For "boss fights", I don't mind them being a bit longer, but I just don't want to be forced do the same thing 6 times. I mean, if the big, ol' military mech needs to:
- have its armor blown off over a particular component...
- then the weak-spot in the generator shot out...
- then a melee attack to the critical area in order to drop it...
Except I don't agree with you. So you're good chum, you don't need to belabor your point.
I'm not interested in a 'realistic' 5-second gunfight involving cyberpunk mercenaries.
I'm not interested in realism at all, in fact, just fun.
Fights dragging on sounds like what I want, yeah.
Nice formatting though. Very well put together.
Also, just remembered I should probably make my account look all fancy too.
Not sure how though.
Frustrating.
Oh wait! Found it!
Also I just noticed you are a Moderator... Isn't that sort of disingenuous to engage in actual discussions on a board you moderate?
I'm not interested in a 'realistic' 5-second gunfight involving cyberpunk mercenaries.
I'm not interested in realism at all, in fact, just fun.
Fights dragging on sounds like what I want, yeah.
Nice formatting though. Very well put together.
Also, just remembered I should probably make my account look all fancy too.
Not sure how though.
Frustrating.
Oh wait! Found it!
Also I just noticed you are a Moderator... Isn't that sort of disingenuous to engage in actual discussions on a board you moderate?
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Interesting. You’re one of the few that prefer bullet sponge enemies. Enlighten me on why you consider that fun.
I don’t see how them being mods means they can’t discuss they’re opinions of what the game should be. As long as you’re respectful of the rules, they don’t have any issue with differing opinions.
I'd be happy to Tree_Fox. Though I don't prefer bullet sponge enemies necessarily. I prefer combat not be simplified so drastically that they are excluded as a narrative/game-play tool. I like to feel like I am playing a cyberpunk game, particularly when I am playing one quite literally named Cyberpunk 2077. The last thing I am interested in is realism of any kind. I want the sort of realistic-within-setting combat that SciFi is good at creating. Larger than life combat that includes everyone from baseline humans and Aug-ed out super-humans is sort of the point of the dystopian setting. Anything less would be disingenuous.
But then you asked why I think that's fun didn't you? I would say it's because I play games to escape reality, not to be reminded of the frail form I'm trapped in or the boring life I lead. It's escapism, why would I want something that's quick and over in a hurry?
As to my comment on his status as a mod, I meant that any conversation is inherently weighted by the fact that he has an imbalance of power weighing in his favor. One that none of us can assail in any meaningful way. Oddly appropriate for a cyberpunk setting, but that's not the best way to run an internet forum.
Also It's just a thought, I obviously can't envorce my opinion on him or anyone with administrative power here. Just voicing my ideas.
But then you asked why I think that's fun didn't you? I would say it's because I play games to escape reality, not to be reminded of the frail form I'm trapped in or the boring life I lead. It's escapism, why would I want something that's quick and over in a hurry?
As to my comment on his status as a mod, I meant that any conversation is inherently weighted by the fact that he has an imbalance of power weighing in his favor. One that none of us can assail in any meaningful way. Oddly appropriate for a cyberpunk setting, but that's not the best way to run an internet forum.
Also It's just a thought, I obviously can't envorce my opinion on him or anyone with administrative power here. Just voicing my ideas.
Mm. Debating moderation policies and CDPR rules on same isn't done publicly here. Please check the Rules in my sig.
This applies to everyone reading this, by the way. Feel free to DM a mod or a Red (Vattier) if you have issues. We don't discuss moderation, or moderation/moderator policies publicly because it causes trouble, eventually and inevitably.
And now, back to the topic please. Oh, it's a new week! Time to make a new poll!
About the combat? Sure! Some people like more of a ballet, move-counter-move kind of experience.
Others like razor quick and sudden. Each to their own.
We'll just continue to agree to disagree.
While W3 is a great game (as are Jagged Allience and X Com) none of them are "RPGs". Many think choice and consequences are all that are necessary for a game to be an RPG. I disagree, chess has choice and consequences, it's certainly not an RPG. While choice/consequences are PART of what make a game an RPG you also have to include the "Role Play" element, the ability to play a character with attributes and skills the player doesn't possess.
Bullet sponge topic again....this is so relative at this point as to be inane, at least until the game comes out. Some people want it to be like COD, others like Borderlands. In between there's a yawning chasm of variation.
Nope. Look at the poll results. People seem pretty united behind some key concepts - Wounds/bleeding, one-shot kills, complexity over HP boosts.
After that, it's either fast TTK or medium-fast TTK. Slow TTK is a small, small minority.
I'd say the results indicate a pretty clear preference from voters on what they'd like to see.
You can argue all the polls are "inane" if you want to be rude, but in this case, clear trends are there.