Cerys needs a nerf

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Guest 4398794

Guest
Maybe they shouldn't have made her "spawn" the melee unit. Sure.

But I lolled at the size of this thread. Do you guys even play the game a lot? There's worse things out there...

If you hate her so much: play Muzzle. Steal her with SY. You can steal the damaged 'maiden with Sweers. I'm sure there's other options. The deck doesn't really do much else. IF it works it's good. Often they don't pull it off.
Haha. You beat it with sy and NG. The other two broken bunch.
Ironic :cool:
 
Haha. You beat it with sy and NG. The other two broken bunch.
Ironic :cool:
So you are saying half the factions are broken ?
That being said, suggesting that SY would be broken right now and not even mentioning ST (which is again at the top with harmony ... who would have guessed (which is not meant in the way that I take particular issue with it)) is funny.

If we add ST to the list we end up with 2/3 of all factions and considering Uprising is still popular (especially with Draug) we would have 5/6 factions as "broken".
 
No. And I won't.
I don't like those decks.
I like engi decks with damage order or cooldown.

You dont like the deck, you are not interested in learning how to beat it efficiently, despite others being helpfull and described how to counter it. You express false statements, such as tripple Cerys, and can't even explain how it's played, as no neutral card can ressurect it.
Yet you have an opinion that this deck is supposed to be OP based on entirely made up statistics on winrates.

Most people have presented viable arguments of what is wrong with this deck. With inconsistency being the main issue, along with non-removal, making it susceptible to Engines, a deck that you play, but perhaps did not master.
Yet here we are, discussing a tier 3 deck, which you chose to label as OP and broken along with SY deck, that is tier 4 at best.


The credibility in these posts went down to 0.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
This might not be the best thread to share this, but somehow it feels kinda appropriate too...

Im always complaining about my bad luck on matches and RNG, but today i witnessed an RNG-miracle, the RNG gods blessed me on this match, precisely against a Lippy Cerys:

RNG Miracle (Succubus Perfect Steals - he forfeited).jpg


So yeah, i used 2 random Succubus effects (one with Caranthir) and stole both his Crowmother AND Cerys, the top 2 targets. For those afraid of numbers, that is a 1/7 followed by another 1/7 odds, that is around 2% of happening.

I would be happy with just a shieldmaiden or roach, but when this happened i was laughing my ass off so hard the opponent forfeited before i could play the next card. :ohstopit:
 
This type of ability has been a problem since the first version of HC:

- Neutral witcher trio
- Blue stripe commando's + Roach

Those cards all got nerfed very hard in different ways:

- Witchers got nerfed so many times to the point they became unplayable
- Blue stripes got +1 provision nerf I believe Roach as well + Foltest leader ability got nerfed twice (1 fewer charges 2 only give zeal to NR cards) + Draug row nerf

I think it would be fair to deal with this combo in a similar way:

- Change Cerys provision costs from 11 to 12p
- Shieldmaidens provision cost from 5 to 6p or base strength from 4 to 3
- Change Ursine ritual charges from 5 to 4
- Lippy -1 base strength or +1 provision cost nerf
 
This type of ability has been a problem since the first version of HC:

- Neutral witcher trio
- Blue stripe commando's + Roach

Those cards all got nerfed very hard in different ways:

- Witchers got nerfed so many times to the point they became unplayable
- Blue stripes got +1 provision nerf I believe Roach as well + Foltest leader ability got nerfed twice (1 fewer charges 2 only give zeal to NR cards) + Draug row nerf

I think it would be fair to deal with this combo in a similar way:

- Change Cerys provision costs from 11 to 12p
- Shieldmaidens provision cost from 5 to 6p or base strength from 4 to 3
- Change Ursine ritual charges from 5 to 4
- Lippy -1 base strength or +1 provision cost nerf

Let's not compare commandoes who can get zeal from a leader, who can be copied 3-8? Times with operator, reinforcements, Adalia, blue stripes, necromancy on blue stripes...
Who can then be summoned all of them again in one go with roche(a possible 33 point play).
Pavetta bringing them all back.
Being Draug targets....

To shieldmaidens who you play, if youre lucky, once for 15 points and one leader charge with no extra ability or way to copy them besides operator. And if you're very lucky you can play them twice for another 19 points.

Edit: you also get thinning, must be said.

It works very differently besides the obvious similarities.

And as other have said, you don't just run Cerys in any SK deck, you need ursine ritual for the instaproc(forfeiting other better abilities), you need to run Lippy if you want to replay Cerys ONCE, which costs 10p, also need roach-morkvaarg or roach-knickers to make your lippy play enough tempo(another 10 +9p or 10+8 or 9+8 or 10+9+8p depending on how much you need them. You might think it's optional, but not having those will make it so that if you play lippy in R2 you either lose a card if you won R1 or you get bled and demolished if you lost R1.
 
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This card pretty much makes the game. Turning it around in two rounds gives 25+ points in total. The effect of this card is too much for the price of it. And the spawned creatures are the worst for removals - 4 points is too much for most row removals and it's not enough for high removals.
Wide Damage is not usually meant for Removal, but for value, what is Point of removing Shieldmaidens after they are summoned? Just running a wide damage, you are going to reap a lot of value, Cerys is not OP, and that Combo is not 11 Prov, it is 21, Shieldmaidens are 5 prov card each, and you are forced to Play Ursine ritual, and in order to play it twice, you need to run Lippy, a 10 prov card that plays for 4 points, and you need to run several Draw Cards in order to be able to Draw Cerys, not to mention the Brick Possiblity, and the being extremely exposed to wide Damage, aswell as a weak Long round, how is that OP? I don't even remember the last time I played Vs a Lippy deck.
If your deck Struggles against Lippy deck, you simply need to tech against it, add the best Wide Damage you have. You can go further by adding Regis: Bloodlust, and take out Cerys with it.
would be better if you mention what deck are you playing mostly, and you should try to win round one at all costs, specially if you are playing an Engine Deck, winning round 1 is pretty much equal to winning the game.
 
Boys.. Nerf is killing gwent !!! every good leaders , cards got nerfed and no one play with them.. My deckbuilder full of unplayable cards.. Nerf is nothing solution , solution is buff other cards , leaders !!
also Newbies always complaining somecards i dont care..
 

Guest 4404014

Guest
Hi, I'm a noob. Dunno about meta or balance but I lose to Cerys every time.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
If your deck Struggles against Lippy deck, you simply need to tech against it, add the best Wide Damage you have. You can go further by adding Regis: Bloodlust, and take out Cerys with it.
would be better if you mention what deck are you playing mostly, and you should try to win round one at all costs, specially if you are playing an Engine Deck, winning round 1 is pretty much equal to winning the game.
And that's the problem. If you have to build your deck to specifically counter one play then it's not balanced at all because a single card cannot counter that strategy, you'd ruin your decks synergy to counter one thing only to b e demolished by another faction. How useful would Regis be against NG or SY? I assure you winning the first round doesn't guarantee a win. I almost always win the 1st round against Lippy players, the problem is it requires my best cards to do it. The issue isn't just lippy or Cerys but also cards like Roach, Nickers and Morkarg etc that allows them to build points quickly with little effort or you being able to react. So you'd need more than Regis to take out all of those cards, once Cerys is summoned the damage is already done. I've stolen her before and it didn't stop me from losing because those obviously aren't the only cards in your opponents deck and Lippy essentially just placed them back in their deck. The issue with Lippy isn't just Cerys...it's that your opponent has just been given their best cards to play a second time when you have very few cards left so for that reason it's OP, it's not just about Cerys. One of the two cards need to be changed to Order
 
And that's the problem. If you have to build your deck to specifically counter one play then it's not balanced at all because a single card cannot counter that strategy, you'd ruin your decks synergy to counter one thing only to b e demolished by another faction. How useful would Regis be against NG or SY? I assure you winning the first round doesn't guarantee a win. I almost always win the 1st round against Lippy players, the problem is it requires my best cards to do it. The issue isn't just lippy or Cerys but also cards like Roach, Nickers and Morkarg etc that allows them to build points quickly with little effort or you being able to react. So you'd need more than Regis to take out all of those cards, once Cerys is summoned the damage is already done. I've stolen her before and it didn't stop me from losing because those obviously aren't the only cards in your opponents deck and Lippy essentially just placed them back in their deck. The issue with Lippy isn't just Cerys...it's that your opponent has just been given their best cards to play a second time when you have very few cards left so for that reason it's OP, it's not just about Cerys. One of the two cards need to be changed to Order
Could you show a copy of your decklist ?
I just cannot wrap my head around what you said.
If you cannot win in a long round 3 if they do not even have Cerys I wonder how you intend to win in the first place.

And that's the problem. If you have to build your deck to specifically counter one play then it's not balanced at all because a single card cannot counter that strategy, you'd ruin your decks synergy to counter one thing only to b e demolished by another faction. How useful would Regis be against NG or SY?
[...]
You do realize that each deck has favorable and unfavorable matchups, right ?
By that argument every card in the game would have to be deleted.
 
Lippy decks have a great strength in the fact they are hard to conter by the opponent, they would need multiple seizes, banishes and row punish cards, which aren't too prevalent in the meta, and doesnt really go tall or rely on order units so poison and locks do nothing.

However, to balance that great strength it has a great weakness in the draws and mulligans - while with other strong decks, all you need to worry is in getting your strongest cards, with Lippy Cerys its more important to just avoid bricks. Not exactly sure what the popular list is, but my version was a mulligan nightmare with risks of bricking 2 shieldmaidens (more in R3), roach, knickers, morkvarg, Ermion if no alchemy spells was left on deck and Crowmother, that needed to be revived before Lippy is played.

Personally, i really like these decks, as im not a fan of GS decks or going tall with svalblod priests, and want to actually put up a fight vs poison and control decks. Im ok with a small nerf, just as long as it doesnt make this playstyle unplayable... again.

I personally think a better Xavier Lemmens would balance Lippy decks properly. Having a real punishment for those decks in the form of a Lemmens that banishes 5 cards in the graveyard (as oppose to 3 or all). I don't think the draw dependence is enough of a balance/disadvantage to properly balance Ursine/Lippy.

Sure thing it's a poor tournament deck, but it sees a relative high amount of play (outside of tournaments), and it seems somewhat consistenta (in my personal observations and when I face them).

People even argue that Usurper should not be a good deck. I think the same can be argued about Lippy. But then again, I think the first statement is incorrect. I think a deck like Lippy has it's place. But I think a "good" nerf would be a better Lemmens (5x banish). That's not only as a Lippy counter, but also for the sake of the role of that card and its average value and use against other decks.
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Hi, I'm a noob. Dunno about meta or balance but I lose to Cerys every time.

Maybe you don't have enough initial tempo (available) in your deck?
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
You do realize that each deck has favorable and unfavorable matchups, right ?
By that argument every card in the game would have to be deleted.

I'm aware. My unfavorable match-up in a world where the game is balanced would be NG not SK since I play MO (Deathwish) and I would be quite fine with that. By your logic however my bad matchup would be NG, SY, NR and SK because currently all those factions require tailoring my deck to counter meta decks which would be fine if I knew who I'd be matched against. Since I have no control over that my options are can't beat em, join em or just don't play
 
I'm aware. My unfavorable match-up in a world where the game is balanced would be NG not SK since I play MO (Deathwish) and I would be quite fine with that. By your logic however my bad matchup would be NG, SY, NR and SK because currently all those factions require tailoring my deck to counter meta decks which would be fine if I knew who I'd be matched against. Since I have no control over that my options are can't beat em, join em or just don't play
I really do not intend to insult you, however Deathwish is a horrible archtype (this is not from a perspective against them, but that they deserve more help (and less auto-losing against poison)).
If you measured which archtypes are too strong by the standard of Deathwish you would have to practically kill the entire metagame (even the mid tier decks).
If you enjoy playing Deathwish that is perfect, however it really struggles to be able to compete.

Edit: At this point I am also not sure that reducing archtypes to factions is really a working simplification anymore.
 
Can no one see the real problems here are Matta and Royal Decree! These “perfect” tutors ( cards guaranteed to draw a specific card from the deck) are bad in many ways: they reduce variety in decks by allowing reliance on single cards or combinations rather than clusters of synergies. Without both Matta and Royal Decree, the odds of drawing both Lippy and Cerys both on first round would be small enough that no one would play this combo. Eliminating perfect tutors would also increase variety in tactics during a match — imagine if player had to use the cards they actually drew rather than cards they wish they drew; then different draws might actually result in different games.

If you really want to shuffle the meta, changes to perfect tutors would be a positive start.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
I really do not intend to insult you, however Deathwish is a horrible archtype (this is not from a perspective against them, but that they deserve more help (and less auto-losing against poison)).
If you measured which archtypes are too strong by the standard of Deathwish you would have to practically kill the entire metagame (even the mid tier decks).
If you enjoy playing Deathwish that is perfect, however it really struggles to be able to compete.

Edit: At this point I am also not sure that reducing archtypes to factions is really a working simplification anymore.

Sorry, but i love deathwish and feel i need to be its advocate here, because it's not horrible at all.

First, there are enough deathwish units to warrant multiple playstyles. And some of them are quite good. Specially against Poison.

The easiest matches against NG poison i have are generally with my DW decks. Plague Maiden is amazing and luckily you can do well against everyone - if you're against NG, they have locks, Sweers, Yen Invo, so its best to immediately trigger Plague Maiden as they never have row removal. On the other hand, other factions like ST or SK have row removal, but rarely have locks or banishes (only the occasional Korathi) so its safer to trigger the rats on the turn you'll boost them with Morvudd/Yen/ Bone Talisman.

Another amazing DW cards are Succubus and Manticore (and Caranthir), because they fell out of play, most players dont play around them and you can counter so many valuable units with them. Yes good players will try to play around them, but if they're playing a deck which relies mostly on single units like NR Engines or NG, they have no way of doing that.

I've been able to win against NG, ST Harmony, NR Uprising, SK Lippy, SY, all with MO Deathwish.
 
Sorry, but i love deathwish and feel i need to be its advocate here, because it's not horrible at all.

First, there are enough deathwish units to warrant multiple playstyles. And some of them are quite good. Specially against Poison.

The easiest matches against NG poison i have are generally with my DW decks. Plague Maiden is amazing and luckily you can do well against everyone - if you're against NG, they have locks, Sweers, Yen Invo, so its best to immediately trigger Plague Maiden as they never have row removal. On the other hand, other factions like ST or SK have row removal, but rarely have locks or banishes (only the occasional Korathi) so its safer to trigger the rats on the turn you'll boost them with Morvudd/Yen/ Bone Talisman.

Another amazing DW cards are Succubus and Manticore (and Caranthir), because they fell out of play, most players dont play around them and you can counter so many valuable units with them. Yes good players will try to play around them, but if they're playing a deck which relies mostly on single units like NR Engines or NG, they have no way of doing that.

I've been able to win against NG, ST Harmony, NR Uprising, SK Lippy, SY, all with MO Deathwish.
You might be right, for some reason I only thought about a Scenario + Detlaff: HV and disregarded the strongest targets.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
Sorry, but i love deathwish and feel i need to be its advocate here, because it's not horrible at all.

First, there are enough deathwish units to warrant multiple playstyles. And some of them are quite good. Specially against Poison.

The easiest matches against NG poison i have are generally with my DW decks. Plague Maiden is amazing and luckily you can do well against everyone - if you're against NG, they have locks, Sweers, Yen Invo, so its best to immediately trigger Plague Maiden as they never have row removal. On the other hand, other factions like ST or SK have row removal, but rarely have locks or banishes (only the occasional Korathi) so its safer to trigger the rats on the turn you'll boost them with Morvudd/Yen/ Bone Talisman.

Another amazing DW cards are Succubus and Manticore (and Caranthir), because they fell out of play, most players dont play around them and you can counter so many valuable units with them. Yes good players will try to play around them, but if they're playing a deck which relies mostly on single units like NR Engines or NG, they have no way of doing that.

I've been able to win against NG, ST Harmony, NR Uprising, SK Lippy, SY, all with MO Deathwish.
That's great for you, I'm sure a lot of ppl have had successes against those factions. It depends on the player, the opponent, the current meta etc a lot of factors. For those opponents I've faced in ranked matches poison is combined with lock and removal. A deathwish deck against lock and removal is not very effective against a seasoned NG player. Double ball + Locks+Yennefers invocation etc can pretty much shut that deck down. That's not to say you can't win, perhaps you missed the point of what balance is, whatever the case you have a far less chance of getting the perfect cards at draw to win than a NG player will because there's no such thing as a bad hand right now if you're playing a NG meta deck.
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Can no one see the real problems here are Matta and Royal Decree! These “perfect” tutors ( cards guaranteed to draw a specific card from the deck) are bad in many ways: they reduce variety in decks by allowing reliance on single cards or combinations rather than clusters of synergies. Without both Matta and Royal Decree, the odds of drawing both Lippy and Cerys both on first round would be small enough that no one would play this combo. Eliminating perfect tutors would also increase variety in tactics during a match — imagine if player had to use the cards they actually drew rather than cards they wish they drew; then different draws might actually result in different games.

If you really want to shuffle the meta, changes to perfect tutors would be a positive start.
You have a good point. I do however think there's a place for those cards so long as the cost is sufficient
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I really do not intend to insult you, however Deathwish is a horrible archtype (this is not from a perspective against them, but that they deserve more help (and less auto-losing against poison)).
If you measured which archtypes are too strong by the standard of Deathwish you would have to practically kill the entire metagame (even the mid tier decks).
If you enjoy playing Deathwish that is perfect, however it really struggles to be able to compete.

Edit: At this point I am also not sure that reducing archtypes to factions is really a working simplification anymore.
No worries, not insulted at all :) I take your point. I know deathwish has fallen to the way side in favor of thrive and dominance especially after the deathwish leader ability got canned but I find those other strategies rather monotonous and I can see other players being annoyed by them to be honest lol But mostly they don't allow for much creativity and I prefer not playing meta decks. Besides with Geralts Yrdn in abundance now those are hit or miss. I'll probably stick with it until it gets a much needed buff
 
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Can no one see the real problems here are Matta and Royal Decree! These “perfect” tutors ( cards guaranteed to draw a specific card from the deck) are bad in many ways: they reduce variety in decks by allowing reliance on single cards or combinations rather than clusters of synergies. Without both Matta and Royal Decree, the odds of drawing both Lippy and Cerys both on first round would be small enough that no one would play this combo. Eliminating perfect tutors would also increase variety in tactics during a match — imagine if player had to use the cards they actually drew rather than cards they wish they drew; then different draws might actually result in different games.

If you really want to shuffle the meta, changes to perfect tutors would be a positive start.

Royal Decree is fine, but Matta is pretty silly. That card was introduced just so you can guarantee draw scenario, which is just bad.

The thing that would nerf Cerys/Lippy the best would be a boost to Lemmens.
 
And that's the problem. If you have to build your deck to specifically counter one play then it's not balanced at all because a single card cannot counter that strategy, you'd ruin your decks synergy to counter one thing only to b e demolished by another faction. How useful would Regis be against NG or SY? I assure you winning the first round doesn't guarantee a win. I almost always win the 1st round against Lippy players, the problem is it requires my best cards to do it. The issue isn't just lippy or Cerys but also cards like Roach, Nickers and Morkarg etc that allows them to build points quickly with little effort or you being able to react. So you'd need more than Regis to take out all of those cards, once Cerys is summoned the damage is already done. I've stolen her before and it didn't stop me from losing because those obviously aren't the only cards in your opponents deck and Lippy essentially just placed them back in their deck. The issue with Lippy isn't just Cerys...it's that your opponent has just been given their best cards to play a second time when you have very few cards left so for that reason it's OP, it's not just about Cerys. One of the two cards need to be changed to Order
And what's the problem? I said you should tech against decks that you happen to be weak against, bad matchups, simple as that, you don't need to tech against Lippy, but if your deck is struggling and it's a bad matchup, then you should tech against it, that's how it works with every deck, you tech against your bad matchups a little, and I never played Regis Bloodlust myself, just said you can go further and do that, but that won't be Nessecary, if you struggle against Lippy just add wide damage, and I don't really know how you loose to Lippy with Deathwish Monster to be honest, maybe your deck isn't good in general, or you are misplaying Vs Lippy.
Maybe share your deck if you want.
 
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