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RDR2 is basically an action game with free roam. There's no need for beefed up enemies because of how much your character evolves.

It's a challenge for many action RPGs, though. Being both narrative-driven and with an extended character progression, I don't think game industry came up with a perfect solution for it. You have to cut it short somewhere. You have to cut length of a game to keep free roam and fine tune a million things, increase length yet split it into many hubs to narrow it down and make it easier to balance or simply brute force it with level gating and bullet spoonges. In every case there's a major sacrifice.

You know that character progression isn't just doing more damage and having more Health?
So no, it's not a problem to have character progression.
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Hm, I more so see certain constrictions you simply have to deal with depending on how you tackle a plot or story.

Thing is you can have a main narrative without resorting to "the character wants that" by making things happens outside of the character ability to choose yet affecting him.
For example being part of a dead god's essence and being chased because of it can happens to the character without the character having a possibility to control that and so not causing problem with roleplay possibilities.
 
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You know that you can make things more difficult without resorting to level gating, you know?
There's a reason why it's harder to attack Arasaka in it's own place or to go to Combat Zone, and the reason isn't "levels".

Saying that level gating is inevitable is a lacks of imagination to me.
No, I don't know. I wish I knew. I wish I played an action CRPG that doesn't resort to major shortcuts in some areas. You can't gate a action CRPG simply by equipment (and especially advanced skills). It would be an absolute insanity to balance it. Especially considering it's also narrative-driven and with action-based gameplay.
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You know that character progression isn't just doing more damage and having more Health?
So no, it's not a problem to have character progression.
Character progression isn't. Enemy progression is, for the most part.
 
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  • Katana gameplay looks clunky as hell, like swinging a trashcan, whatever, I don't really want to play with katanas. And was that player seriously trying to block bullets with a sword? Ur not supposed to block anything with a sword, that's what shields are for.
  • Fist fights also look clunky as hell, the character stretches his arm out ridiculously. Ur not supposed to stretch ur arms that far, the opponent could catch them and throw you. Come on people, this isn't that hard to grasp.
  • Driving looks fine.
  • Shooting looks solid, can't complain at all about that.
  • Stealth looks like a joke - 10 metres away and they can't see me? Seriously? What is this, Thief 1?
If I would play this game, I would play someone who goes loud with firearms.
 
Fist fights also look clunky as hell, the character stretches his arm out ridiculously.

Disagree, not every punch is the same from different fighting technique (or no fighting technique at all).

As a former Kenjutsu practitioner, if I would criticize something it would be the lack of Ki-Ken-Tai as the character only seems to move his katana instead of putting his whole body into it. There should be a body movement with an attack.
 
I probably didn't get what you meant then, but RDR2 is a huge open-world (main quest is 50ish hours alone), with lots of exploration, many random events, several side activities, and side quests that unlocks with game progression. No levels nor important loot.

You say that level gating enforces linearity but RDR2 is as linear in the way the missions are presented : for example, mission D is "invisible" to you as long as you haven't completed mission A, B and C. It's just as linear as levels, but a different approach without a level number next to the missions. And I think it's even worse because there are some companions missions (the white ones) that only appear once you've progressed main missions or other side missions

Edit: to be more precise, what I mean is that you'll always have some kind of gating in open world games. In RDR2 before I could go fishing with little Jack, i had to go hunting with Hosea first and before that, had to clear this Odriscoll's camp.
It's the same for bounties. You can't even choose them. It's one after the other in the same Valentine city. You always have to complete the bounty to catch the scammer before you can hunt the murderous widow. In a game with level, the murderous widow would be higher level than the scammer. At least with a game with levels you could have a go at it before you get wrecked. RDR2 is more realistic that way because the widow is not stronger than the scammer but with less replayability and freedom. Ah, and I find it really disappointing that you can FAIL bounties, a side activity, if you don't play by the rules, i.e ''capture your target alive''
 
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You say that level gating enforces linearity but RDR2 is as linear in the way the missions are presented : for example, mission D is "invisible" to you as long as you haven't completed mission A, B and C.

And are you saying Witcher 3 or CP2077 main storyline missions will be available before you do the prerequisite missions? :coolstory:
 
No, I don't know. I wish I knew. I wish I played an action CRPG that doesn't resort to major shortcuts in some areas. You can't gate a action CRPG simply by equipment (and especially advanced skills). It would be an absolute insanity to balance it. Especially considering it's also narrative-driven and with action-based gameplay.

Unfortunately, in this case, there are. Yes you can have an RPG - action or otherwise - that does not tie character levels to quests or areas. Kingdom Come Deliverance, Deus Ex, Deus Ex: HR/MD are some whose systems i think could have been employed here (action - adventure - narrative - first person - rpg - immersive sim - open/semi-open world). I would even add TES series since even though there are character levels it dose not use it as a questing or gating system but as a player power gauge and the world reacts accordingly to provide extra challenges.

It's just not what they wanted to do and i respect that. But there are precedents of non level ARPG's
 
..... Also never understood how putting perks into a weapon category can magically increase its damage and critical.
I also have problems with putting points in body, intelligence etc can improve you without doing an activity associated with that attribute.
It's because it is not RealLife™ but a game.
 
Unfortunately, in this case, there are. Yes you can have an RPG - action or otherwise - that does not tie character levels to quests or areas. Kingdom Come Deliverance, Deus Ex, Deus Ex: HR/MD are some whose systems i think could have been employed here (action - adventure - narrative - first person - rpg - immersive sim - open/semi-open world). I would even add TES series since even though there are character levels it dose not use it as a questing or gating system but as a player power gauge and the world reacts accordingly to provide extra challenges.

It's just not what they wanted to do and i respect that. But there are precedents of non level ARPG's
DX games are hubs. They're already split in many parts. Which is basically gating. And Mankind Divided crumbled under it's own weight. They tried to do one hub with complete freedom and choked on the size of the task... Then they decided to split it, then it bombed and rip DX, here comes CP.
 
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DX games are hubs.

Pretty big ones with plenty of freedom. Hence my "semi-open world" paranthesis.

Regardless, was just an example. There are others.

Which is basically gating. And Mankind Divided crumbled under it's own weight. They tried to do one hub with complete freedom and choked on the size of the task... Then they decided to split it, then it bombed and rip DX, here comes CP.

Not sure if the decision to split it was because of a fundamental design flaw (It's not, ofc) or because the publisher decided it wasn't worth the extra investment. And it wasn't just the world design that was split, everything was pretty much cut in half. Otherwise it was a solid game.
 
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You say that level gating enforces linearity but RDR2 is as linear in the way the missions are presented : for example, mission D is "invisible" to you as long as you haven't completed mission A, B and C. It's just as linear as levels, but a different approach without a level number next to the missions. And I think it's even worse because there are some companions missions (the white ones) that only appear once you've progressed main missions or other side missions

Edit: to be more precise, what I mean is that you'll always have some kind of gating in open world games. In RDR2 before I could go fishing with little Jack, i had to go hunting with Hosea first and before that, had to clear this Odriscoll's camp.
It's the same for bounties. You can't even choose them. It's one after the other in the same Valentine city. You always have to complete the bounty to catch the scammer before you can hunt the murderous widow. In a game with level, the murderous widow would be higher level than the scammer. At least with a game with levels you could have a go at it before you get wrecked. RDR2 is more realistic that way because the widow is not stronger than the scammer but with less replayability and freedom. Ah, and I find it really disappointing that you can FAIL bounties, a side activity, if you don't play by the rules, i.e ''capture your target alive''
I'm sorry, you're right, I've just thrown it there without giving any explanation.

I used the example of RDR2 because many people say that very long games (and RPG fit that description almost every time) NEED a progression system and levels to direct the player in the right path. RDR2 has neither of them and still is a great game.
In terms of gating, sure, RDR2 does that as well. It's a linear game set in an open-world and not an RPG so the problem is relatively small. But what's good about it was not clear from my previous message as well. RDR2 deals with main quest vs side quests in a very simple but effective way that could be used by RPGs as well. The game's pace is driven by the narrative itself. There are moments when acting is urgent and you don't have the occasion to do side quests, but after those, the game presents you a moment of calm and that's when you can (and sometimes are invited to) do side missions/activities. Without spoiling the game, many times you are in a hurry to move your camp, but just after it the mood is relaxed and new side quests appear on the map.
A classic RPG would have given us tons of quests from the beginning, not letting us do them because of levels. You can try, sure, but not only you'll 100% fail because of math, it would also create a huge narrative dissonance between the situation and the result: a wolf looks the same as all the others you've killed 2 minutes ago, but that little number will make him kill Geralt, master witcher, butcher of blavikhen, with one bite, while our hero will hit it with his swords dozens of times with no effect. Or, and this is funnier, Hattori waiting for geralt at the docks for weeks while our favourite witcher travel around 3 regions (waiting to go from lvl 10 to lvl26).
An acceptable alternative IMHO could be letting quests appear only once you've reached the required level AND divide enemy in levels according to their type (all wolves are around level 3, all wraiths are around level 20), if you really want to keep levels in place. And don't divide areas in levels because it makes things even worse.
 
Not sure if the decision to split it was because of a fundamental design flaw (It's not, ofc) or because the publisher decided it wasn't worth the extra investment. And it wasn't just the world design that was split, everything was pretty much cut in half. Otherwise it was a solid game.
No, not design flaw. I think more due to a really hard task of fine tuning non-gated experience. I'm approaching it not from the point that levels is the only way. It's obviously not. I just believe they have to cut on something if they ever want to finish the game. Level gating helps to streamline progression and experience plus align it properly with the narrative without running a studio into the ground. So they can focus on something else. Big and bad narrative, variety in quest design and so on. It's basically about priorities and resources.
 
Level gating helps to streamline progression and experience plus align it properly with the narrative without running a studio into the ground.

Streamlining progression is not exclusive to level gating stuff, is all i'm saying. And i'm saying it because i've played it before. They did it like this because they wanted to, they're familiar with it and can focus on other stuff, probably. Streamlining the progression is still a chore with level gated stuff, maybe even more so as TW3 showed. Anyway, it is what it is.
 
Streamlining progression is not exclusive to level gating stuff, is all i'm saying. And i'm saying it because i've played it before. They did it like this because they wanted to, they're familiar with it and can focus on other stuff, probably. Streamlining the progression is still a chore with level gated stuff, maybe even more so as TW3 showed. Anyway, it is what it is.
Obviously not. I'm talking what's easier and to me it seems the main reason. They had to make it less daunting in some areas so other can be done properly.
 
Elaborate Game Informer preview - it's long but quite informative.


They make an interesting observation about gunplay - at first they thought it's not the most polished element, not on par with classic FPS shooters, but at the end of the demo they felt like the handling of weapons got better because they managed to level up certain combat skills and get experience from using this particular gun. It sounds like there's an RPG system under the hood that calculates this stuff.

In other preview I heard the same thing - you reload your gun faster as you level it up. It it actually works like that - this all sounds very promising.
 
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, and this is funnier, Hattori waiting for geralt at the docks for weeks while our favourite witcher travel around 3 regions (waiting to go from lvl 10 to lvl26).


Ok that example is hilarious and I better understand your point. When it comes to pacing, I believe the issue may be more story structure related than level related.

In RDR2, from what I've played so far, lots of missions seem to be "self contained". Unlike most RPGs, RDR missions are not connected nor split into several parts where once you're done with 1/2 of an important quest, you have to travel half the map to be given further instructions from a new npc to finish the quest (and risk being distracted). If my memory serves right, the majority of Rockstar games quests are mostly isolated events that will "lock" the player in the mission until he/she completes it (hence the replay/abandon mission buttons).
When a quest is finished, the next quest giver will also wait around for weeks in the mountains just like Hattori, but with a completely different objective. This new mission could very well be a pressing matter. However you don't know that yet because in RDR no npc will tell you "Come meet me at once in the mountain or we'll all die". There's also no quest synopsis written in your quest log that will pressure you. That's why the pacing is not weird imo.

So what CP could do is just make missions with urgency big and long, ''railroad" them like RDR ,keep them the same level all the way through and dismiss quest givers when completed.



An acceptable alternative IMHO could be letting quests appear only once you've reached the required level AND divide enemy in levels according to their type (all wolves are around level 3, all wraiths are around level 20), if you really want to keep levels in place.

That's actually a good idea, especially letting quests appear when you meet their level.
 
The Game Informer preview I linked above mentions that during dialogue you can still see the options you can't pick because of your stats not being developed enough.

If that's true it's quite a bummer. I hoped dialogue options unavailable to you would be hidden.
 
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