The problem with Skellige

[DRK3]

So i've played a bit of Ranked lately, where i've faced quite a few Second WInds. And i lost almost every time. Why?

I was using a NG Tactics deck. This deck was destroying SK Warriors earlier this month, but now it loses, because a lot of these SK decks arent using GS/Dagur anymore!

This was because of the nerf to provisions. And the irony is, that the SK got even better with it, because without GS/Dagur, they have less point potential but they're incredibly harder to disrupt. And of course, if they DO run a GS/Dagur and you're not ready, you instalose.

On a match, i was even able to brick a Harald (no warriors on GY), make a miraculous Tyyrgvii counter by Coup de Grace'ing his Gremist to purify my Ruptured unit, and still lost, because i was playing it safe, preparing for a GS that never came.

Parallel to this, i was using a meme deck to replay Arnjolf with Blood eagle (after all, he's 0 provisions!), and trying to optimize Madman Lugos, Brokvar Archers, Drummond Warmonger, but even though it was fun, after awhile i thought 'i must really be a masochist, using these cards when i could be running much safer choices like Morkvarg HoT or Hemdall...'

Curiously, this deck actually did well specially against players who pushed me to use leader ability R1 (this deck is kinda built for that) and then they would use their leader ability, even on blue coin, which is a dumb move but i guess its justified since everyone is so scared of SK warriors (even though this deck i was using wasnt nearly as threatening, but they didnt know that...)

 

[Guest 4368268]

Dove into ranked for the first time and ofc immediately cued into the SK deck. It honestly made me laugh just how OP it is.
First note I'd make is veterans should develop in hand/deck, not on their way to the graveyard.
Then there's Harald, if you don't kill him he'll ping your units (ignoring armor.. why?) and enables Greatswords, if you do kill him then he'll be resurrected bringing an over tuned warrior with him.

It feels like all their units have veil and there's Gremist for the ones that do not. Piercing missile post-expansion has become even more oppressive. Skjordal.. what were they thinking? A 5 deal 5 for 8. For reference a 4 deal 4 costs 10 for neutral and 9 for Scoia'tael. I could go on and on of course but hundreds of others have said everything for me.

But what you said about bricking their stuff and still losing is far too relatable. It's probably the thing about Gwent I dislike the most and what usually makes me not come on for a month or so. When you know you're better than your opponent but you still lose and there's nothing you could do differently then the motivation to play takes a massive dip.

Point slam decks should be a control deck punish that is unfavourable against most everything else. When a pointslam deck is also the most point heavy deck then you have broken your game. Because why not play it? All the rewards for a fraction of the usual risk.
They make this 'mistake' over and over again. Though since it's another broken post-expansion list you could argue it's deliberate. It's unacceptable either way.

 

[rrc]

I have joined the gang and started playing SK (nowadays I play very little and I don't want to play for hours with 0 rounds won).. I tried Blazing Glory with the same warrior package and I can actually play any card in any order and can still win. In one game I committed my leader in R1 to win R1 and still won since you don't need leader or anything when you play the disgustingly op cards. I make mistakes on purpose (playing less optimal play or overcommiting) and still I win. Then tried SW and the less provisions didn't mean anything. You can play M:TotS or Heimdal in R1 to win and then replay them to win R3. 30 points behind till my last card and resurrect GS and play the gold or play GS from hand and resurrect the golds.

But all said and done, a well played NR still beats nooby SK. I saw some games from MissLadyJay and she played Draug NR and kept beating SK right and left (and kept facing SK right and left). And in many of the games, the opponent made mistakes (probably noob players who reached pro rank and playing around 2500 fmmr due to auto-piloting SK). But a skilled SK player will always beat any skilled player from any faction irrespective of the draws.

 

[Guest 4404014]

But a skilled SK player will always beat any skilled player from any faction irrespective of the draws.

Well, you can always get your Eagle, Harald, Morkvarg, Hemdall, Turgvii, Skjordal, Donar, Totem and GS bogged at the bottom of your deck and lose by the minimal advantage Gwent golds have versus SK bronzes. I mean, that's not mathematically impossible, is it?

 

[Pacifixer]

100% agree! SK is ridiculously broken. I managed to brick opponents Second wind and Harald and still lost by 20 points (my board was not amazing, but it was no joke either). You can win with SK while picking your nose with one hand and scratching your balls with the other.
I hope devs are planing huge balance patch. Btw NR is pretty busted as well.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Also, good thing is once SK gets its double (or triple, quadruple, whatever, it WILL happen eventually, it MUST...) hotfix, you'll have all those noobs stuck in pro and feeling naked without their SK.

 

[judgecsk]

@Pacifixer
Indeed i can attest to that.
SK is pretty much broken atm.
I rarely win against SK-SW decks, even when pulling all the right cards at the right time, it's just ridiculous even after the nerf. The only deck that has helped me so far against em is MO-DS and by including cards like "The Beast", "Caranthir", "Dettlaf" and a demon card that I keep forgetting it's name that keeps on coming back from the graveyard, all that combined with
"Geralt : Yrden" and still it's not a guaranteed win.
I'm not one to call for nerfs usually but yeh, I don't know what else can be done.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

Yes, SK really needs more nerfs:

My suggestions:

Harald: Can only reactivate cards with maximum of 5 provision costs
=> No Greatswords can be reactivated by Harald

Blood Eagle: Echo
Damage an enemy unit by 2 then play a warrior from your deck with max 5 provision cost. If it has higher provision costs damage it by one for each difference.
Deathblow: Increase the limit by 2
Bloodthirst 3: Increase the limit by 2
=> Fits much better the Skellige Nature and weakens the card

Morkvarg: decrease strength to 4
=> Usually he creates much more value than 6, as usually he has good targets. So a small nerv might be justified.

Wild Boar of the Sea
-> Give Initiative to the Second Strike

The other SK cards appear to be still well designed. Especially Skjordall and the Veteran feature I really appreciate. It costs "space" in your hand if you want to save them for later. To my mind, one good strategy against SK is not letting them play round 3 and provoke playing their veteran like cards early.

 

[Guest 4404014]

CONFESSION: I got win 5 SK matches daily quest... and I din't change it.

 

[DRK3]

Just a few more notes i forgot on the initial post:

-Further evidence that SK actually got better by not including GS/Dagur, or at least harder to disrupt - before you could snipe these decks, tech hard against them with Xavier Lemmens to empty their graveyard, use Yrden/Igni to deal with giant GS/Dagurs...
But now, even that is not as effective as every card provides value on their own, and that value is higher on average than the value of other factions, so you really cant disrupt much.

-I have another SK deck, a Ursine Ritual, balanced between damage and self damage.
I like this deck, it has a lot of the strong new cards like Berserkers, Raiders, Harald and the gold that hits for his provision cost+veteran, but on the other hand, doesnt run Morkvarg HoT or Wild Boar of the Sea.

And this deck is the perfect proof of how strong SK is, because it can destroy other factions to the point it makes me feel bad and cheap for using it, but on the other hand, it struggles to keep up with "pure" SK Warriors decks, so it becomes quite the dilemma...

 

[Corfius]

Confession:
Started playing in March. I mostly played NR, NG and ST with some MO.

Got to pro rank last season for the first time.

I had trouble to get past rank 2 this season. Wasted all my scraps on ST and they suck. I had like 6 wins with SK since I started playing and I didnt have many of their gold cards.

So I started building my SK deck after losing every game I played against them this season.

I mostly completed my SK deck 3 days ago. I use wild boar instead of the rapture guy (don't have the card). Keep in mind I never played SK seriously before.

I lost my first game then I went on a winning streak of 11 games to reach pro rank.

My closest game was against another SK guy.

If this is not OP I don't know what is it. No matter what my opponent do I can still destroy him. It's like playing on god mode. More than anything I never felt I was out of control during a match.

OP even Harmony wasn't that strong.

 

[Guest 4404014]

I had trouble to get past rank 2 this season. Wasted all my scraps on ST and they suck. (...) So I started building my SK deck after losing every game I played against them (...) then I went on a winning streak of 11 games to reach pro rank.

Success story of typical a SKent player

(No shaming, I did the same thing. Just swallow my pride and SKate through them ranks. It's masochism otherwise.)

 

[Chunder13]

I have been playing for about 3 months now, and at first I really wanted to like SK but my deck building skills were limited and I thought SK cards were fairly weak. I gave up on SK and started building my ST deck, but concluded I just plain don't like that faction. I built a really good NG deck, but I always felt like a jerk stealing my opponent's cards. So tight before the expansion I tried SK again. Yes my deck has a lot of the new cards, wild boar, dagur, great sword, and yes it is a second wind deck. (I started this deck a few days before expansion). I feel like SK is OP, but in my opinion SK was due for more power.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Here is a great example of why the bronze warrior kit is a bit too strong. @17:45.

In round 3, a handful of SK bronzes should not beat a hand with 5 golds xD

Don't get me wrong, he sequenced the round well, but when your 4 and 5p cards are this beefy, it's hard for any other deck to keep up.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

From my perspective I really love drummond villager as it perfectly fits into the SK architecture. Nevertheless, 4 provision are quite cheap for such a powerful card.
- You have a base value of 4.
- If you target a veiled unit and the turn is long the value increases to 8
- If you target an engine unit like Blue Boy Lugos and the turn is long the value increases to 10 (as half the value increase comes from the target card)

Taking into account that other 4 p cards can give a value of 7 or more
- Aen Elle Conqueror if Devotion is met
- Mutant Creator if Devotion is met
- Kerack Maritine Soldier if Devotion is met
- Oakcritter if Devotion is met and longer turn
- Van Morlehem Servant if many statuses and later long turn (almost impossible)
- Dryad Enchantress If Long Turn
- Redanian Knight If Long Turn (even more theoretical possible)
- Kikimore Warrior If Long Turn and fitting targets available (even more theoretical possible)
- Cintrian Enchantress if Bonded
- Dryad Grovekeeper if many dryads and long turn (even more theoretical possible)

=> To sum it up Drummond villager appears to be the strongest 4p card. So maybe a nerv might be justified (e.g. increasing provision to 5 or reduce bleeding to 3)

 

[DRK3]

From my perspective I really love drummond villager as it perfectly fits into the SK architecture. Nevertheless, 4 provision are quite cheap for such a powerful card.
- You have a base value of 4.
- If you target a veiled unit and the turn is long the value increases to 8
- If you target an engine unit like Blue Boy Lugos and the turn is long the value increases to 10 (as half the value increase comes from the target card)

Taking into account that other 4 p cards can give a value of 7 or more
- Aen Elle Conqueror if Devotion is met
- Mutant Creator if Devotion is met
- Kerack Maritine Soldier if Devotion is met
- Oakcritter if Devotion is met and longer turn
- Van Morlehem Servant if many statuses and later long turn (almost impossible)
- Dryad Enchantress If Long Turn
- Redanian Knight If Long Turn (even more theoretical possible)
- Kikimore Warrior If Long Turn and fitting targets available (even more theoretical possible)
- Cintrian Enchantress if Bonded
- Dryad Grovekeeper if many dryads and long turn (even more theoretical possible)

=> To sum it up Drummond villager appears to be the strongest 4p card. So maybe a nerv might be justified (e.g. increasing provision to 5 or reduce bleeding to 3)

Its not just drummond villager, all 4 of SK's new bronze units are super strong, and can be easily found on most SK decks, which have abandoned longships/warships.

But just speaking in point potential, the best 4p card is NR's scytheman, which can hypothetically go up to 21pts. I think my best is 18/19, but usually it still goes 8-12 on Uprising decks.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

Oh yes, I forgot Lyrian Scytheman.

Well one could argue that preparing a Scytheman is more challenging than preparing a Drummond Villager. For Drummond villager you only need a veiled or a "beserker-engine" unit to create substantial value. For Lyrian Scytheman you need many units with more than their base strength. Your opponent can more try to stop you by simply damaging units.

Taking a deeper look into the other new bronzes:
- Tuirsearch attacker: Can have a max value of 7 in round 3. Does not appear to be OP for me, as all fractions including NG´s angry mob got a 4 provisions conditional 7 value card
- An Craite Raider: Has due to his Veteran Feature a maximum base value of 6 in round 3 and can damage 2 if not stopped. So his maximum value is 8, which sounds reasonable for a 5 p. To my mind the other fractions got comparable cards (NG new aristocrat with much higher value potential, NR Kerack City Guard with much higher value potential, ST Hamadryade with much higher value potential). Only MO and SY didn´t get comparable or better 5 p units. I did not even include An Craite Raider into my deck, because I prefer An-Craite Caller as my only 5 p card)
- Drummond Berserker: Decent card creating a value of 9 (1 dmg for 3 turns then base strength of 6) if not stopped. Nevertheless it´s value potential is decreased significantly if stopped (facing armour, destroyed earlier). I think his value is fair and the card is comparable to Alba Pikeman (less value potential but more flexible as not limited to Melee).

 

[Payus]

The most problematic card is Turseach Axemen, truly OP! You just need to damage Tibor or Old Speartip y 7 and 6 respectively then you can kill them with a 4 point bronze! That's an instant 10 point bronze! By that logic, of course everyone should be running this card.

HINT: most of you don't even know about this card, and nobody uses it. I wonder why.

 

[Breli]

The current power level is just disgusting. Just watch pro-players like Saber97 losing to this non-sense although the other player makes mistake after mistake.

But lets take another perspective: SK is actually great design wise. So much synergy and flexibility. Almost all cards work together well, almost all options available: they can handle tall and wide, have by FAR the best control and can put points on the board almost like monsters. All in ONE deck. Leader doesn't matter, single cards don't matter. It is just ridiculous. From a "neutral" design perspective, however, this is just a job well done.

That's also why the faction cannot be nerfed. A few provisions here and there or some minor tweaks like in the hotfix won't change anything. The entire design is just superior to other factions. I guess you need to bring up the other factions like they (tried) one year ago when we had exactly the same problem with Skellige.

I can just hope, that all this creativity and thinking that went into Skellige will be used at one point in time to improve other factions that are just boring, uninspired and have a lazy design.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

The most problematic card is Turseach Axemen, truly OP! You just need to damage Tibor or Old Speartip y 7 and 6 respectively then you can kill them with a 4 point bronze! That's an instant 10 point bronze! By that logic, of course everyone should be running this card.

HINT: most of you don't even know about this card, and nobody uses it. I wonder why.

Can tell you why...as it´s most possible a 4 provision for 4 value card.

What´s the reason?
1) Your opponent needs valuable targets. Old Speartip is for example rarely played because of its bad provision value proportion and better alternatives (like Yghren).
2) You have to be able to half the value of the card. Obvious best-fitting card is Ulfhedinn (7 provisions) who damages half. Then you can finish with Axemen if there are no reasonable counter-initiatives from your opponent. But when you play Ulfhedinn he expects Axemen and can react accordingly (increase value, use defender, use shields, etc.). All the other SK units need multiple turns to achieve that goal. But maybe cards like gigascorpion absud or delirium are alternatives
3) Slow synergies with Greatsword massacre and even negative synergies with bloodthirst based strategies

=> with this strategy you have to spend approximately (10 to 11) provisions to remove an enemy unit and get a base value of 8. If you play two NG´s Fangs of Empire you only have to spend 8 provisions and achieve the same goal. Furthermore, your opponent can worse react to poison than to big damage.

To my mind the most valuable 4 provision SK card after Drummond Villager is probably An Craite Smith (which is not even a warrior). He has a potential value of 14 (4 + 10 improvements) and can be helpful for protecting engines. However, he is often removed fast. But then your opponent has less removal potential.