Is this game an rpg?

[eLmeFist0]

I am a poor person to ask.

You commented above about "serious RPG players". I have watched table top AD&D/D&D games at GenCon where no role playing was going on. We called those game roll playing games, and that is generally the mindset where all computer role playing games fit in. The term CRPG is sort of a derogatory term for a game that wants to be something that it is not.

That is why I am a poor person to ask. In order to accept that computer video games can be role playing games, I have already dropped my standards so far down that there is really no point in quibbling over nuances. It isn't whether the computer game is a role playing game. Very few are. The criteria is whether it can be played as a role playing game. It is about the support that the computer game provides to the player for the purpose of role playing.

As for Far Cry 5, again, never played the game. Your list of items is really about story games, so it is hard to tell. Is it anything like The Last of Us?

"You commented above about "serious RPG players"."

I talked about CRPG not tabletop, pen-and-paper RPGs.
What I should have write is "serious C(omputer)RPG players".

"That is why I am a poor person to ask. In order to accept that computer video games can be role playing games, I have already dropped my standards so far down that there is really no point in quibbling over nuances. It isn't whether the computer game is a role playing game. Very few are. The criteria is whether it can be played as a role playing game. It is about the support that the computer game provides to the player for the purpose of role playing."

I already talked about the standards being lowered then tabletop, pen-and-paper RPGs mostly C(omputer)RPG.

"As for Far Cry 5, again, never played the game. Your list of items is really about story games, so it is hard to tell. Is it anything like The Last of Us"

Again:
In Far Cry 5:
"You create your character, customize the appearance. You can upgrade weapons, buy cars.
You can go through missions shooting enemies, you can use stealth, you can use environments and wild animals. You can decide who to kill and who not to kill.
You can do side quests or not.
For completing missions the protagonist gets experience and perks - and not just +5% damage, but new abilities.
You have to complete three storylines to unlock the ending. At the end of the game you choose the ending. "

Very similar with Cyberpunk 2077.
Logic dictates that if Cyberpunk 2077 is RPG then Far Cry 5 is one.

Last of Us is in the action-adventure genre.

There are the following video-games genre:

Sandbox EX: Grand Theft Auto
Real-time strategy (RTS) Ex: Company of Heroes, Age of Empires
Shooters (FPS and TPS) EX: Crysis, Doom, Halo, Half Life, Gears of War
Multiplayer online battle arena (MOBA) EX: DOTA
Role-playing (c(omputer)RPG) EX: Divinity: Original Sin, Gothic 2
Simulation: EX: Euro Truck Simulator, Flight Simulator
Racing: Fortza, NFS
Sports EX: Fifa, Madden NFL
Puzzlers EX: Portal, The Witness
Action-adventure EX: Last of Us, Assassins Creed, Uncharted
Adventure games EX: Syberia, Broken Sword
Horror EX: Amnesia, Penumbra
Platformer EX: Unravel

Assassins Creed Origins, Cyberpunk 2077, Far Cry 5 are not so "pure" action-adventure like Last of Us, Uncharted but have some weak RPG elements on top.

 

[szspagna]

I am a serious RPG player, and that means that no computer game is really an RPG. We are decades away from the technology to do that at an economical price. This is why we have the term CRPG, for Computer RPG. Cyberpunk does qualify under that limited definition. More than TW3, but less than other games.

My curmudgeon nature aside, strictly speaking, any time the player takes on a character performing a role in a game, it is a role playing game. The definition is really very broad.

As with all CRPG, it is the degree to which these sorts of things are allowed that define _how good_ of an CRPG it is. This is not a binary, black or white, sort of thing. Cyberpunk is a CRPG, and there is no doubt about that, no matter what they say on their website. It is not really good at being an CRPG. though. They have a number of restrictions, limitations, and omissions that subtract from the game. This is likely why they quiety removed the reference from their website. In forum parlance: cut content.

I'd like to see them add to the game to make it a good CRPG. With everything that has happened, I am not holding my breath.

This is not even close to the CRPG you imply when we look at games like Divinity, Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, let alone traditional JRPG's. You are far stretching the definition of an RPG.

The few lasting choices are the endings and whether Delamain dies, merges with the AI, or resets, and in the case of Delamain you don't even interact with the aftermath besides 2-3 text messages from one of the cars sending you pictures of its travels.

The single somewhat RP element in this game is the combat variety, but if we use build variety as a qualifier for RPG, virtually almost all action combat games would qualify for it.

 

[KinserClipper]

This game is much more along the lines of an open world shooter such as Far Cry or Borderlands or Rage 2, than a more RPG styled action game like Witcher 3 or Elder Scrolls or Kingdom Come.

Except, if you know what you're doing you can get through much of the game without shooting.

 

[Didacgomez]

I'm a little bit old already, but according to some people "Dungeon Master" and "Eye of the Beholder" are no longer (c)RPGs?No turn-based, limited dialog choices,linear gameplay (no automap, you have to use pen and paper actually to map), not open-world (Eye of the beholder II some hub I think). Also "MUD" games are no longer (c)RPG apparently.

 

[KinserClipper]

What are you talking about? You get better weapons, you murder guys. That's about it.
Sure, putting stats in some stats/skills makes you better at it, but you can do it just fine without them. And that's the problem.

No offense, but you aren't noticing the impact of stats/perks that's on you. The only thing in this game that depends solely on player skill is driving.

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2021

I disagree, and it is not because of Witcher, AAA games, or any computer role playing game.

In every role playing game, roles have expectations and limitations, and you can play "different roles" within the bounds of those. Even in table top RPGs, a player can encounter a situation where playing a role outside of expectations is frowned upon. This is often viewed as a disruptive player, and I have heard stories about these players being asked to leave, especially when things get taken to an extreme.

Computer games are more restrictive in this respect, simply because there is no AI that can adapt the setting, dialog, and outcome of the game to the whims of the player. The player must play the role within the bounds of the game design, like with Elder Scrolls, Fallout, and many others, but especially Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077.

CDPR does not have a rich background in RPG games, so one does not expect a lot freedom in the games they make. Cyberpunk is a little more tolerant than Witcher, but they are both limited, and both RPG games.

Good Points! But even with world building, video games are more flexible than tabletop games because the worlds are bigger and more expansive. In a tabletop game, I can 't just veer off the set path and play random side quests the way I can with a crpg. I think people have unrealistic expectations for RPG's and confuse them for Action Sandbox Simulators like GTA.

 

[TouPoutsou]

People keep going around circles around here. RPG is a game that lets you develop your character in different ways to take care of the tasks (inside or outside of combat) in different ways. The Mage will deal differently with a certain encounter than the thief or the tank... And that's that. The Witcher, Far Cry or Assasin's Creed are not RPGs, because despite the leveling up, the skill trees, the different weapons or even story choices, you deal with the encounters as a predetermined role, despite having the option of slight differences. Geralt will deal with monsters with his swords, no matter if have invested more in your fast attack rather than your strong attack.
CP is an RPG because you can deal with the encounter as a hacker, or as melee fighter, or a street brawler, or a gunslinger. It is not deep, but it's there. Also the freedom on tabletop RPGs sometimes is overstated. It depends on the Game Master, on the campaign or the specific quest. Several times we just had to take a linear path to loot a dungeon. Some games actively try to recreate that Pen and Paper experience and do it rather well, like Divinity 2. Better than Baldur;s Gate did back in the day.

 

[Metalomaniac16]

People keep going around circles around here. RPG is a game that lets you develop your character in different ways to take care of the tasks (inside or outside of combat) in different ways. The Mage will deal differently with a certain encounter than the thief or the tank... And that's that. The Witcher, Far Cry or Assasin's Creed are not RPGs, because despite the leveling up, the skill trees, the different weapons or even story choices, you deal with the encounters as a predetermined role, despite having the option of slight differences. Geralt will deal with monsters with his swords, no matter if have invested more in your fast attack rather than your strong attack.
CP is an RPG because you can deal with the encounter as a hacker, or as melee fighter, or a street brawler, or a gunslinger. It is not deep, but it's there. Also the freedom on tabletop RPGs sometimes is overstated. It depends on the Game Master, on the campaign or the specific quest. Several times we just had to take a linear path to loot a dungeon. Some games actively try to recreate that Pen and Paper experience and do it rather well, like Divinity 2. Better than Baldur;s Gate did back in the day.

It was sold as an RPG, they changed that before launch. You can say is an RPG, we know they tried to make an RPG, but i guess when they realized it was lacking a lot, they changed the label to first person action shooter.

 

[Grindders]

CP is an RPG because you can deal with the encounter as a hacker, or as melee fighter, or a street brawler, or a gunslinger.

And that means that Far Cry 5 is also an RPG. Ubisoft will be surprised when they find out about this.

By the way, in The Last of Us 2 you can shoot enemies, hit them with melee weapons, or sneak past them. So TLOU2 is also an rpg?

 

[ElsonsoJannus]

This is not even close to the CRPG you imply when we look at games like Divinity, Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, let alone traditional JRPG's. You are far stretching the definition of an RPG.

What you call stretchin' the definition of an RPG, I have a different perspective. People are needlessly restricting what they consider an RPG to be. By doing this, games that are actually pretty fun CRPGs get pushed out of the happy CRPG family.

I mean, that is what this thread is all about, right? Is this game a CRPG? Should it be in the happy CRPG family? I say "YES".

I am not afraid to let some scummy First Person Shooter or Survival game into the fold.

Good Points! But even with world building, video games are more flexible than tabletop games because the worlds are bigger and more expansive. In a tabletop game, I can 't just veer off the set path and play random side quests the way I can with a crpg. I think people have unrealistic expectations for RPG's and confuse them for Action Sandbox Simulators like GTA.

Actually, I think you have that reversed.

 

[TouPoutsou]

And that means that Far Cry 5 is also an RPG. Ubisoft will be surprised when they find out about this.

By the way, in The Last of Us 2 you can shoot enemies, hit them with melee weapons, or sneak past them. So TLOU2 is also an rpg?

No

 

[ElsonsoJannus]

By the way, in The Last of Us 2 you can shoot enemies, hit them with melee weapons, or sneak past them. So TLOU2 is also an rpg?

The reason I mentioned The Last of Us a while back that it is pretty much an anti definition for an RPG game. At least, as far as a story game goes. I assume The Last of Us 2 does not fall far from the apple tree.

So, no, it is not a CRPG, for the same reason the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books are not role playing. Having options in the scripted story does not, by itself, make a CPRG game.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

This is not even close to the CRPG you imply when we look at games like Divinity, Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, let alone traditional JRPG's. You are far stretching the definition of an RPG.

The few lasting choices are the endings and whether Delamain dies, merges with the AI, or resets, and in the case of Delamain you don't even interact with the aftermath besides 2-3 text messages from one of the cars sending you pictures of its travels.

The single somewhat RP element in this game is the combat variety, but if we use build variety as a qualifier for RPG, virtually almost all action combat games would qualify for it.

you have tons of choices in this game that determines the outcomes of events. You just ignore all those events because you don't care about any of those outcomes. You imply a choice only matters if it effects the main character's ending. You also ignore that what endings are even available depends on the choices the player makes. And you ignore that events within the endings change depending on your choices.

Are you saying that siding with netwatch or with the voodoo boys is not an RPG choice? Deciding whether to be a cold blooded killer with Anna hammil, Gustavo Orta, Corpo Hit and run lady, those are not choices that allow you to act out a role, and effect in game character's lives? The fate of clouds? Where you send Jackie's body? If you solve the north Watson Ripper's shady business, and kill him or make a deal for discounted parts? Saving Pepe marriage or destroying it? Saving takamura or letting him die? Whether tortoise cop commits suicide or not? Taking a bribe for throwing a fight? Determine wether us cracks singer lives or gets murdered by a stalker? Determine whether nomads stay in NC or go? Determine whether a politician is brainwashed, or watching his back? Whether river lives or dies? Determine the relationship between various characters.

RPG choices doesn't mean having 10 endings, or your choices decided the fate of a kingdom (though v's choices do) it means your choices determine who,why,how,what,when your character is, and effects the world and the characters in it.

the game has tons of RPG choices and consequences. It has tons of RPG character dialogue options that let you set V's personality, and values.

 

[maniak6767]

RPG = Role Playing Game, Cyberpunk is RPG.
Stats on weapons, clothes and characters, dialogue options, skill checks, non-lineary story, skill trees. It's even better because you can use cars to roleplay character, something other big RPG's lacking (Bethesda never tried to add cars to their games).

 

[Grindders]

No

Why not? You said yourself that CP is an RPG because you can deal with the encounter as a hacker, or as a melee fighter, or a street brawler, or a gunslinger. You can do the same things in Far Cry 5 and The Last of Us 2. Except hacking.

You imply a choice only matters if it effects the main character's ending.

No. People don't want 100 different endings. People want to see the consequences of their choices. People want choices that lead to different quests and situations. People want consequences, like in The Witcher 3.
And ended up with a choice between "do the quest" or "don't do the quest" and lots of dialogues with only 1 answer choice. Dialogue with only one answer choice in an RPG? That even sounds ridiculous. I don't understand who in the studio management approved this decision.

The only mission in the game with meaningful choices and consequences is Pick Up. Every story quest, every side job, every gig should have been designed like a Pick Up. This is what people were expecting. And it's not crazy expectations, CDPR already did that in The Witcher 3.

What makes you think people want more endings anyway? I haven't seen a single person on this forum who wants more endings when talking about the linearity of Cyberpunk.

 

[exxxed]

-snip-

I'm confused, are you saying that the there's dialogue options in Far Cry and Assassin's Creed that define the type of character you play?

If you consider Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines an RPG what makes it more of an RPG than Cyberpunk?

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Why not? You said yourself that CP is an RPG because you can deal with the encounter as a hacker, or as a melee fighter, or a street brawler, or a gunslinger. You can do the same things in Far Cry 5 and The Last of Us 2. Except hacking.


No. People don't want 100 different endings. People want to see the consequences of their choices. People want choices that lead to different quests and situations. People want consequences, like in The Witcher 3. People expected similar consequences from the creators of The Witcher 3.
And ended up with a choice between "do the quest" or "don't do the quest" and lots of dialogues with only 1 answer choice. Dialogue with only one answer choice in an RPG? That even sounds ridiculous. I don't understand who in the studio management approved this decision.

What makes you think people want more endings anyway? I haven't seen a single person on this forum who wants more endings when talking about the linearity of Cyberpunk.

the game has tons of choices that effect what happens in the quest and game world, as I already pointed out. A consequence of siding with Saul is panam hates you and deletes you from her phone. A consequence of where you send Jackie's body is having a funeral, or being an engram In mikoshi. A consequence of letting Anna Hammil live is her killing the corrupt cops who hired a hit on her. A consequence of siding with Judy's plan is Tom and Roxy getting killed. A consequence of not listening to Meredith is fighting militech, A consequence of siding with netwatch is Alt killing the VDBs because netwatch booby trapped them. A consequence Of killing Joshua is they never get to make his braindance. A consequence of leaving the building like Johnny reccomends is takamura dying, and not being a part of the ending story.

the witcher isn't the definition of an rpg, its not the definition of choice and consequence. Its fine to say you prefer the witcher, but its ridiculous to claim the game isn't an rpg because it doesn't have choices and consequences, when it has them all over the game. You don't like the way they handled choices and consequences, thats not the same as them not existing.

 

[ElsonsoJannus]

If you consider Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines an RPG what makes it more of an RPG than Cyberpunk?

I was never able to play Bloodlines for more than a couple hours, but it does have one thing in common with Cyberpunk. Both were released before they were finished.

 

[Grindders]

A consequence of siding with Saul is panam hates you and deletes you from her phone.

So you''ll just lose her quests without getting new quests in return. These consequences do not lead to a new experience for the player.

A consequence of letting Anna Hammil live is her killing the corrupt cops who hired a hit on her.

I let her go, but I didn't see any new quests about mysterious cop murders. No new content for the player.

A consequence of siding with Judy's plan is Tom and Roxy getting killed.

You don't see it, you don't get the quest where their killing happens. That's just one sentence from Judy.

A consequence of not listening to Meredith is fighting militech

Great example from Pick Up quest.

A consequence of siding with netwatch is Alt killing the VDBs because netwatch booby trapped them.

It doesn't matter to the player because they no longer appear in the story. It doesn't matter if they die or not, nothing changes for the player. You can also kill them even if you refuse to cooperate with the Watch. So even their death doesn't depend on that choice.

A consequence Of killing Joshua is they never get to make his braindance.

One phone call from Rachel. No new quests, no new dialogue, no new content.

Now look at the Pick Up quest.
You pay with your money - the deal goes peacefully. You pay with an infected chip and fight with Malstrom and later in the story they are your enemies. You pay with a clean chip and fight Militich and the Malstroms become your friends.

See the difference in the consequences? Your choices lead to new scenes, new dialogues, new situations.

 

[exxxed]

I was never able to play Bloodlines for more than a couple hours, but it does have one thing in common with Cyberpunk. Both were released before they were finished.

You should really give it another try with the community patch ( I believe it's included with the GOG version) but bare in mind that combat isn't the focus of the game and sometimes it's unavoidable .

Either way besides both being released before they were properly cooked they both have similar things in common like different life paths and choices that define the narrative but not change it completely in the long run.

So I am curious what exactly makes VtMB that much different than Cyberpunk...

 

[Andy_Tomlins]

No, nothing you do has any effect on the world. Its an action adventure where you follow Vs story more than drive it.