Is this game an rpg?

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So you''ll just lose her quests without getting new quests in return. These consequences do not lead to a new experience for the player.

I let her go, but I didn't see any new quests about mysterious cop murders. No new content for the player.

You don't see it, you don't get the quest where their killing happens. That's just one sentence from Judy.

Great example from Pick Up quest.

It doesn't matter to the player because they no longer appear in the story. It doesn't matter if they die or not, nothing changes for the player. You can also kill them even if you refuse to cooperate with the Watch. So even their death doesn't depend on that choice.

One phone call from Rachel. No new quests, no new dialogue, no new content.

your definition of consequences is new quests for the player.

thats not actually what choices and consequences mean.

many times the consequences for an action are the loss of other options.
you also ignore that consequences that effect the characters, and game world, are consequences.
A character dying, is a consequence. A character breaking up with you is a consequence. making friends or enemies is a consequence. Characters appearing in endings, or not is a consequence.


once again, just because you don't like the choices and consequences, does not mean they do not exist. Just because you like another games choices and consequences does not mean they don't exist.

one characters play through and another's can be extremely different based on how they chose to play the game, with different friends, enemies, people alive, different news stories, and totally different state of affairs in NC. Not only that, but who V is as a character/person can be totally different. This is what makes it an rpg.
 
You should really give it another try with the community patch ( I believe it's included with the GOG version) but bare in mind that combat isn't the focus of the game and sometimes it's unavoidable :D.

Either way besides both being released before they were properly cooked they both have similar things in common like different life paths and choices that define the narrative but not change it completely in the long run.

So I am curious what exactly makes VtMB that much different than Cyberpunk...
The two big differences are the class system that affects much of the conversations in the game. Seduction, intimidation and persuation along with some class powers. Apart from a few body checks builds have very little effect on the personality of V. You cant be a cool streetkid charming your way through night city like you could as a Toreador.

The other is the much tighter focus of Bloodlines with its hub based areas keeps your attention on the narrative and the side quests in those hubs. Cyberpunk constantly hints at this much bigger world you could go and have an adventure in but its not real. You could look out over LA from the Ocean House or Grouts Mansion and have a wonder what you could get upto in Bloodlines but you cant reach it. Open worlds are hard to make not seem mile wide inch deep.
 
No, nothing you do has any effect on the world. Its an action adventure where you follow Vs story more than drive it.

So, One player can be a cold hearted corpo, who despised Johnny, Ignored Judy, Had Panam delete them from their phone, caused Arasaka to dominate NC and allowed Saburo to return to life and become an overlord handing out immortality.

And another can be a bleeding heart idealist who idolized Johnny, played in a band, Made love to Judy. Saved lost children, refused to take any hitjobs, Walked away from conflict with Voodoo boys, and gave her body to her friend rather than live for a few months, Causing the downfall of Arasaka, and freeing trapped digital souls.


but nah, nothing you do effects the world. You don't drive V's story.
 
The two big differences are the class system that affects much of the conversations in the game. Seduction, intimidation and persuation along with some class powers. Apart from a few body checks builds have very little effect on the personality of V. You cant be a cool streetkid charming your way through night city like you could as a Toreador.

I have to admit, the fact that there were any skill checks in Cyberpunk took me by surprise.

Now I have to ask, what do the skill checks in VtMB really change besides the following dialogue option which is similar to Cyberpunk's.

As far as I remember the narrative beats in VtMB remain the same regardless of your affiliation, like joining the Tremere Regent (Johnny), joining La Croix (Arasaka) or going with Nines Rodrigues (Panam).

There are similar skill checks in Cyberpunk's missions where you can either talk your way through an interaction, sneak or combat.

Akin to VtMB you can either get more information or less depending on your lifepath.

The other is the much tighter focus of Bloodlines with its hub based areas keeps your attention on the narrative and the side quests in those hubs. Cyberpunk constantly hints at this much bigger world you could go and have an adventure in but its not real. You could look out over LA from the Ocean House or Grouts Mansion and have a wonder what you could get upto in Bloodlines but you cant reach it. Open worlds are hard to make not seem mile wide inch deep.

I ultimately agree with this, but personally I always wanted to have a bigger world in VtMB while I was playing it - goes the same with Deus Ex.

But I agree that the tighter focus in both of them worked in their favor although having an open world in Cyberpunk doesn't really draw any of that away from it in my perspective.
 
Having the option to play as Malkavian and Nosferatu and unique gameplay experience they provide.

I agree, but you can have a similar experience in Cyberpunk as well, ultimately the problem lies with the concept of contemporary videogame mechanics, you can't have paying customers be excluded from gameplay options - or so it seems.

As much as you were excluded from walking the streets while being a Nosferatu or having prophetic dialogue choices as a Malkavian *which you would not be aware of if you haven't previously completed the game - the narrative doesn't exactly change.
 
@Ayinde_Palmer If you've played Mass Effect, you must remember the moment where Shepard has to choose who survives - Cayden or Ashley. After this mission you get unique dialogues and scenes with a surviving team member.

Now imagine if the survivor had only said thank you Shepard and disappeared from the game.
Yes, you made a choice, the character survived. But what's the point of that choice if it doesn't change anything for the player? No consequences.

And it's the same with choices in Cyberpunk. They are there, but have no consequences for the player, do not create new situations, do not lead to unique quests, do not change the path through the story.

Meaningful choices and consequences were in almost every quest of The Witcher 3. All players praised CDPR for implementing it. So when CDPR promised choices and consequences in Cyberpunk, people expected the same level of execution.
 
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Meaningful choices and consequences were in almost every quest of The Witcher 3. All players praised CDPR for implementing it. So when CDPR promised choices and consequences in Cyberpunk, people expected the same level of execution.
No, not nearly as much as much as they were present in TW2. They've also received a lot of praise for what they've accomplished with that game and that very aspect had been downgraded in TW3. For some reason they are really afraid of allowing people to miss out on good chunk of game's content.
 
No, not nearly as much as much as they were present in TW2. They've also received a lot of praise for what they've accomplished with that game and that very aspect had been downgraded in TW3. For some reason they are really afraid of allowing people to miss out on good chunk of game's content.
Well, in TW3, the main role of the player was to make sure Geralt arrived at the next cinematic alive and reasonably well. Outside of that, you had some freedom to go and do as you please, but the main job was always to get Geralt to his next scene.
 

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Well, in TW3, the main role of the player was to make sure Geralt arrived at the next cinematic alive and reasonably well. Outside of that, you had some freedom to go and do as you please, but the main job was always to get Geralt to his next scene.
Yeah, kinda. It's just weird to see TW3 used as an exemplar of how the choices and consequences should be implemented when it's the game with most linear story in its own trilogy. I still love the game, don't get me wrong, but the difference between TW2 and TW3 in this aspect is so much bigger than between TW3 and CP2077.
 
you have tons of choices in this game that determines the outcomes of events. You just ignore all those events because you don't care about any of those outcomes. You imply a choice only matters if it effects the main character's ending. You also ignore that what endings are even available depends on the choices the player makes. And you ignore that events within the endings change depending on your choices.

Are you saying that siding with netwatch or with the voodoo boys is not an RPG choice? Deciding whether to be a cold blooded killer with Anna hammil, Gustavo Orta, Corpo Hit and run lady, those are not choices that allow you to act out a role, and effect in game character's lives? The fate of clouds? Where you send Jackie's body? If you solve the north Watson Ripper's shady business, and kill him or make a deal for discounted parts? Saving Pepe marriage or destroying it? Saving takamura or letting him die? Whether tortoise cop commits suicide or not? Taking a bribe for throwing a fight? Determine wether us cracks singer lives or gets murdered by a stalker? Determine whether nomads stay in NC or go? Determine whether a politician is brainwashed, or watching his back? Whether river lives or dies? Determine the relationship between various characters.

RPG choices doesn't mean having 10 endings, or your choices decided the fate of a kingdom (though v's choices do) it means your choices determine who,why,how,what,when your character is, and effects the world and the characters in it.

the game has tons of RPG choices and consequences. It has tons of RPG character dialogue options that let you set V's personality, and values.


None of those have IMPACT or reintegrate themselves into the world. After that quests closes, I don't interact with said people ever again or see them in the world in any way I can interact with.

Tell the cop lady to go be a Nomad? Big deal, never hear from her again or get a follow up quest. Help Meredith Stout out? Only a text message for a weird joytoy with recycled joytoy voice. Fate of clouds? Matter nothing at all, whether Tom dies and the other one goes missing or they live under Maiko, I never see them again, and to Judy it doesn't matter because she says she feels alone in the city regardless and wants to leave. Jackie's body and saving Takemura are only relevant in, AGAIN, the endings. And only in a single one particularly.

Winning the boxing fights is of absolutely no consequence; I get a Steam achievement, whoop dee doo. No title, no NPC reactions to me throughout the city, no champion belt to hang in my rather static apartment. Not even a special conversation with Viktor at his clinic! Hell, the game apparently doesn't even care I saved a cat and brought it to my apartment, because when I wake up in my new apartment after the Arasaka assault, Misty's dramcatcher and the Zen Master items are there, but the cat is nowhere to be found. No indication of who the cat goes to should I decide to head out with the Nomads, since the cat is not present at the camp either.

Help Netwatch or VDB? Inconsequential, whether VDB dies or not has no ramification in the world or story. Whether I cooperate with them despite two betrayals doesn't earn me any different treatment than from chopping their heads off after the second betrayal or after working with Netwatch. Nor do I get any follow up from Netwatch for helping them fry the VDB.

Your understanding of RPG and choices is just set at the lowest bar possible, with highly superficial choices that merely represent the illusion of choice, but with no material consequences in my gameplay or the completely static world of Night City.

50 street cred, and for what? Still a nobody to every single NPC in Night City. Think you'll hear in the radio who won Claire's races? Nope.

Chop up a bunch of scavs, Tyger Claws, Maelstrom, and decimate VDB? The NPC's of said factions hanging out in the street won't even react to me unless I go stand right in front of their face and bump into them triggering the automated aggression system for hostile NPC's that every killable enemy NPC has.

This game has no integration of your choices into the world because there is simply no development of said world. It's all smoke and mirrors, a pretty case of chocolates without the chocolates inside.

This is most obvious when you go to a supposedly dedicated gay bar in Dicky Twister, and THERE ARE NO ACTUAL STRIPPERS. There is no mesh for male strippers, only a single joytoy in Cherry Blossom. In fact, one of the male "strippers" dancing on the bar is wearing some baggy construction jumpsuit and a mask. They couldn't even be bothered to implement NPC's appropriate for the environment they were put in, unlike the several thinly dressed female strippers and the floating dolls in The Afterlife. Lots of posters about Mr. Stud, not a single stud-like NPC in the game outside maybe River Ward or Emerick in terms of body build.

I don't play RPG's so I can imagine consequences in my head. Mass Effect, Dragon Age, the Witcher certainly don't leave recurring consequences to my imagination or down to a piece of text. I play RPG's so I can see my choices materially reflected in the world I'm immersed in and progressing on.

Did I enjoy some things of this game? Sure, the main story was warmly crafted and delivered, as were the side story of the NPC's related to the ending (the Nomads, Judy's crew, and Johnny's bandmates), alongside some deeply touching sidequests like Claire's race, Joshua's crucifixion, Mama Welles's send-off of Jackie and Misty's involevement. Some even really funny ones like breaking the guy out from the Militech encampment that the friend who works in Militech asks you to. Too bad the overwhelming majority of the content is repetitive filler, delaying your leveling and replayability through the sheer boredom of the 10th "get this item by sneaking or get X NPC or Y item without killing people" gig.

I also must say that the combat, despite the horrendous balancing of it, has a lot of potential and is enjoyable for the most part, outside melee and first person not being really well-suited for parry based gameplay.

But all of this is eclipsed by the outright deceitful marketing of this game and the claims made in interviews, from the depth and variety of romance, to the cut 3rd person cutscenes, to the grand claims of RPG elements and overstated importance of gangs who in the grand scheme of things are completely irrelevant.

This game is a mixed bag, and it hurts like crazy that it turned out this well, because it's clearly a diamond in the rough that would have been a "thing of beauty" had they given it the time it deserved.
 
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No offense, but you aren't noticing the impact of stats/perks that's on you. The only thing in this game that depends solely on player skill is driving.
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Good Points! But even with world building, video games are more flexible than tabletop games because the worlds are bigger and more expansive. In a tabletop game, I can 't just veer off the set path and play random side quests the way I can with a crpg. I think people have unrealistic expectations for RPG's and confuse them for Action Sandbox Simulators like GTA.
Not really I would love a game thats as RPG and as good as Gothic 2, Vampire Bloodlines, Disco Elysium, Dragon Age Origins, Kotor.
I'm confused, are you saying that the there's dialogue options in Far Cry and Assassin's Creed that define the type of character you play?

If you consider Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines an RPG what makes it more of an RPG than Cyberpunk?
Like i said similar not perfectly equal.
IT has over Far cry 5 some weak dialogue options put there just for existence. No depth and complexity like in other real crpg.


Vtm B moral choices affect greatly the gameplay. By behaving unethically your humanity gets lower and if its gets too low you mostly get into freenzy and atack people if blood low. This at the wrong time can lead to masquerade violations.
By exibiting vampire power in front of people you lose masquerade points.
If you lose 5 masquerade points the game ends.


Humanity points can be gain by doing acts of kindness.


The abilities and attributes have bigger influence in successfully completing certain actions.
The ability to move silently and avoid being detected is heavily influenced by the character's Dexterity and Stealth ratings.
The same goes for the other abilities and attributes.


How the player interacts with the game world varies depending upon which clan you chose. Differences range from different dialogue options becoming available to certain quests becoming available or unavailable. The most notable gameplay differences are experienced by those who play as Malkavian (due to their insanity, dialogue options are often
Illogical nonsense, making it difficult to conduct conversations and negotiations; Malkavians also encounter numerous bizarre moments during gameplay, such as television sets and stop signs speaking to them) and Nosferatu (who, in order to avoid Masquerade violations, are prohibited from speaking to humans(mostly have to go through sewers) and who do not have access to any gameplay options involving seduction).


Superior approaches to the game having social, stealth, melee or ranged.


Superior tree dialogue with multiple influence choices depending on abilities, race, attributes.


Dialogues really matter (think of old Fallout or Torment or Baldur's Gate).


The game appeals to the cult following the World of Darknes pen and paper system.


Your choices, gameplay has great impact on the game. The replayability is far greater in VTM and has much more role playing complexity. Cyberpunk 2077 does not even dream to come close.


Saying its similar its just plain wrong.
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Yeah, kinda. It's just weird to see TW3 used as an exemplar of how the choices and consequences should be implemented when it's the game with most linear story in its own trilogy. I still love the game, don't get me wrong, but the difference between TW2 and TW3 in this aspect is so much bigger than between TW3 and CP2077.
Witcher 3 is a weak crpg.
Cyberpunk 2077 its even weaker making it more action adventure then crpg.
 
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Not really I would love a game thats as RPG and as good as Gothic 2, Vampire Bloodlines, Disco Elysium, Dragon Age Origins, Kotor.
You didn't play Vampire Bloodlines or Disco Elysium if you say so, it's pretty easy to spot you have no clue.
Vampire Bloodlines and Cyberpunk are very, very similar. Bloodlines are pretty linear story with some variations mainly based on your gameplay/clan. But story and quests they are not more complex or complicated than ones from Cyberpunk. If Cyberpunk is not RPG as you said, Bloodlines is not RPG, Disco is not RPG etc. etc. Sorry but is hard to read things like that, when I'm 100 % sure you know these titles only because you've read about them.
 
You didn't play Vampire Bloodlines or Disco Elysium if you say so, it's pretty easy to spot you have no clue.
Vampire Bloodlines and Cyberpunk are very, very similar. Bloodlines are pretty linear story with some variations mainly based on your gameplay/clan. But story and quests they are not more complex or complicated than ones from Cyberpunk. If Cyberpunk is not RPG as you said, Bloodlines is not RPG, Disco is not RPG etc. etc. Sorry but is hard to read things like that, when I'm 100 % sure you know these titles only because you've read about them.
Its irrelevant if i played or not. Reality and truth are not depending on me playing.
But for your knowledge I did play 4 times(only 3 times i finished) VTM B.

Vtm B moral choices affect greatly the gameplay. By behaving unethically your humanity gets lower and if it gets too low you mostly get into freenzy and atack people if blood low. This at the wrong time can lead to masquerade violations.
By exibiting vampire power in front of people you lose masquerade points.
If you lose 5 masquerade points the game ends.

Humanity points can be gain by doing acts of kindness.

The abilities and attributes have bigger influence in successfully completing certain actions.

The ability to move silently and avoid being detected is heavily influenced by the character's Dexterity and Stealth ratings.

The same goes for the other abilities and attributes.

How the player interacts with the game world varies depending upon which clan you chose. Differences range from different dialogue options becoming available to certain quests becoming available or unavailable. The most notable gameplay differences are experienced by those who play as Malkavian (due to their insanity, dialogue options are often
Ilogical nonsense, making it difficult to conduct conversations and negotiations; Malkavians also encounter numerous bizarre moments during gameplay, such as television sets and stop signs speaking to them) and Nosferatu (who, in order to avoid Masquerade violations, are prohibited from speaking to humans(mostly have to go through sewers) and who do not have access to any gameplay options involving seduction).

Superior approaches to the game having social, stealth, melee or ranged.

Superior tree dialogue with multiple influence choices depending on on abilities, race, atributes.

Dialogues really matter (think of old Fallout or Torment or Baldur's Gate).

The game appeals to the cult following the World of Darknes pen and paper system

Your choices, gameplay has great impact on the game. The replayability is far greater in VTM and has much more role playing complexity. Cyberpunk 2077 does not even dream to come close.
Saying its similar its just plain wrong.


I would call games like
Shadowrun
Disco Elysium
Divinity Original Sin 1,2
Gothic 1,2
Pillars of Eternity 1,2
Fallout 1,2, New Vegas
Dragon Age Origins
Diablo 1,2
Kotor 1,2
Vampire Bloodlines
Baldur's Gate 1,2 strong computer RPGs.

And games like Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Skyrim are weak computer RPGs.

And games like Cyberpunk 2077 , Far Cry 5, Assassins Creed Origins open world action-adventure with weak rpg elements.

Even CDPR agrees with me.
They themselves on their website call the game open world action-adventure.

In Far Cry 5 you:
"You create your character, customize the appearance. You can upgrade weapons, buy cars.
You can go through missions shooting enemies, you can use stealth, you can use environments and wild animals. You can decide who to kill and who not to kill.
You can do side quests or not.
For completing missions the protagonist gets experience and perks - and not just +5% damage, but new abilities.
You have to complete three storylines to unlock the ending. At the end of the game you choose the ending. "

Very similar with Cyberpunk 2077.
Logic dictates that if Cyberpunk 2077 is RPG then Far Cry 5 is one.

Is Far Cry 5 RPG?

Also the game is a joke in terms of gameplay: weak driving, weak shooting mechanics, weak loot(look ridiculous, meaningless you change it too often, boring), customization after start of game its non-existent, weak physics, weak interactivity, weak RPG elements, skill trees with useless, unbalanced, AI is brain-dead, game unfinished, bugs, crashes, dead big open world.
Some redeeming qualities: lighting, sound&music, the world and characters, story.

Can we really compare Cyberpunk 2077 with masterpieces like KOTOR, VTM B, Dragon Age Origins, Disco Elysium, Shadowrun, Gothic 2 NOTR, Divinity Original Sin 1?
 
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If I assume the role of a fictional character and possess their persona, abilities, etc. independent of my own in reality a game is on it's way to being an RPG. My character sees a situation a certain way then I do as well. My character can do it then I can as well. If my character can't do it then I can't either. At the very least if my character finds it easy or struggles with it then, as the player, I should too.

Building this character only serves to let the player define the role. This option doesn't have to be available. Although, it's typically a better RPG if it does because the player can create the role themselves.

Stats, skills, perks or any other form of character progression serve to define the capabilities of the role being assumed.

Choices/consequences, in whatever form they take, offer a way to express the personality of this character. They don't need to exist but the player loses some ability to express the character when they are excluded.

All of these various areas and others, taken individually, can be classified as RPG elements. To me, given the way modern games are designed, categorizing a game is based on which elements dominate it. If these RPG elements are the driving force and dominate the game then it's an RPG.

In a Halo level I can choose to fall off a bridge in a very specific way on purpose and, as a consequence, this decision ripples across the level, despawns all enemies and the level can be completed without entering combat. Assuming I stick the landing properly. :confused: One could conceivably stretch this and call it choices and consequences. Halo is not an RPG, however.

In my opinion CP has various solid RPG mechanics. In other cases, not so much.
 
Like i said similar not perfectly equal.
IT has over Far cry 5 some weak dialogue options put there just for existence. No depth and complexity like in other real crpg.

Subjective, objectively it is more complex than Far Cry whether you like it or not, just by the simple fact that you can guide the narrative and create character archetypes by the way of lifepaths, dialogue options and gameplay.

Vtm B moral choices affect greatly the gameplay. By behaving unethically your humanity gets lower and if its gets too low you mostly get into freenzy and atack people if blood low. This at the wrong time can lead to masquerade violations.
By exibiting vampire power in front of people you lose masquerade points.
If you lose 5 masquerade points the game ends.


Humanity points can be gain by doing acts of kindness.

Even though it was a half assed mechanic with barely any impact on the gameplay besides a cutscene with a ''blood hunt'' Cyberpunk could have used a humanity meter ending up with MaxTac hunting V down as a cyberpsycho, the game has all the ingredients to support it.

Now the fact that it doesn't have it doesn't really substract anything from the RPG values this game has going for it.

The abilities and attributes have bigger influence in successfully completing certain actions.
The ability to move silently and avoid being detected is heavily influenced by the character's Dexterity and Stealth ratings.
The same goes for the other abilities and attributes.


How the player interacts with the game world varies depending upon which clan you chose. Differences range from different dialogue options becoming available to certain quests becoming available or unavailable. The most notable gameplay differences are experienced by those who play as Malkavian (due to their insanity, dialogue options are often
Illogical nonsense, making it difficult to conduct conversations and negotiations; Malkavians also encounter numerous bizarre moments during gameplay, such as television sets and stop signs speaking to them) and Nosferatu (who, in order to avoid Masquerade violations, are prohibited from speaking to humans(mostly have to go through sewers) and who do not have access to any gameplay options involving seduction).


Superior approaches to the game having social, stealth, melee or ranged.


Superior tree dialogue with multiple influence choices depending on abilities, race, attributes.


Dialogues really matter (think of old Fallout or Torment or Baldur's Gate).


The game appeals to the cult following the World of Darknes pen and paper system.


Your choices, gameplay has great impact on the game. The replayability is far greater in VTM and has much more role playing complexity. Cyberpunk 2077 does not even dream to come close.

Yeah this is all present in Cyberpunk.

The problem with Cyberpunk is that it allows everyone to experience everything in one playthrough which creates character inconsistencies, but if you replay the game by role playing a certain character archetype and consistently work towards certain goals (redemption and belonging, become a legend of the afterlife or reconciling with the corpo world - the three main narrative threads supported through dialogue and lifepaths) it encourages replayability greatly if one cares for Role Playing.

The fact that the game design allows all the characters to become a mixture of everything is sadly a modern game design trope which in my opinion, plain sucks, and it should have more strict consequences depending on certain paths the characters chose, but claiming they don't exist or they're shallow is just plain fallacious.
 
itjobs.

Subjective, objectively it is more complex than Far Cry whether you like it or not, just by the simple fact that you can guide the narrative and create character archetypes by the way of lifepaths, dialogue options and gameplay.



Even though it was a half assed mechanic with barely any impact on the gameplay besides a cutscene with a ''blood hunt'' Cyberpunk could have used a humanity meter ending up with MaxTac hunting V down as a cyberpsycho, the game has all the ingredients to support it.

Now the fact that it doesn't have it doesn't really substract anything from the RPG values this game has going for it.



Yeah this is all present in Cyberpunk.

The problem with Cyberpunk is that it allows everyone to experience everything in one playthrough which creates character inconsistencies, but if you replay the game by role playing a certain character archetype and consistently work towards certain goals (redemption and belonging, become a legend of the afterlife or reconciling with the corpo world - the three main narrative threads supported through dialogue and lifepaths) it encourages replayability greatly if one cares for Role Playing.

The fact that the game design allows all the characters to become a mixture of everything is sadly a modern game design trope which in my opinion, plain sucks, and it should have more strict consequences depending on certain paths the characters chose, but claiming they don't exist or they're shallow is just plain fallacious.

I agree, but I think having exclusive options is mostly just an illusion. I don't think the game would be more RPG if they made you have to choose between judy/panam's/johnny's side quests, or made the 3 MS separate branches mutually exclusive. Or made certain gigs unlock more other gigs. Or made you have to choose a specialty for gigs.

The fact is you have more choice to shape your character by not having exclusive options, rather than less. However, apparently many players can't handle all that choice to shape their characters, and somehow believe that they have more choice, when they effectively have less. Choices don't matter unless they have a meter attached to them.

The other factor is the game is way more subtle, they don't always explicitly tell you how everything is effected, and you only figure out by playing multiple times or searching for info. Like saving takamura, Or quests that unlock based on other quests done, Or paying attention to the names and stories in gigs to see when new ones spawn. New conversation options based on how thoroughly you investigate Evelyn at clouds. Other games may have less choices, but they announce them all, and have the game clearly reveal to you when something changed.
 

Basically catch-22, I agree with everything here but it seems to create a dissonance in people's minds because all the branches being open and accessible at all times gives the impression that there is no choice at all.

It's the videogame mentality clearly at play here, if it's available it needs to be done which as a consequences removes the veneer of choice by giving the player full control over the narrative and gameplay options at all times - but also burdens the player with the notion that they need to restrict themselves from accessing content clearly open to be experienced.

This is where the dissonance comes from, I can clearly get a similar experience out of this game as I could from Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, but I can also get a similar experience from this game as I could from S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Deus Ex.

It's really down to how people play it, yes to some it's a deep and meaningful Role Playing experience, to others it's a plain old looter shooter so at the same time it's different things to different people.

This whole argument is nonsensical and the initial definition of a Role Playing Videogame is strictly referring to games supporting the D&D, AD&D and AD&D 2ed systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

It has however morphed over time to include a wider range of videogame systems that ultimately imply that the player has a specific interaction with the character development archetype at the core of the experience.

Basically by the simple virtue of having the option to control the character development and to create certain gameplay scenarios based on that said development a video game can become a role playing game.
 
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Basically catch-22, I agree with everything here but it seems to create a dissonance in people's minds because all the branches being open and accessible at all times gives the impression that there is no choice at all.

It's the videogame mentality clearly at play here, if it's available it needs to be done which as a consequences removes the veneer of choice by giving the player full control over the narrative and gameplay options at all times - but also burdens the player with the notion that they need to restrict themselves from accessing content clearly open to be experienced.

This is where the dissonance comes from, I can clearly get a similar experience out of this game as I could from Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, but I can also get a similar experience from this game as I could from S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or Deus Ex.

It's really down to how people play it, yes to some it's a deep and meaningful Role Playing experience, to others it's a plain old looter shooter so at the same time it's different things to different people.

This whole argument is nonsensical and the initial definition of a Role Playing Videogame is strictly referring to games supporting the D&D, AD&D and AD&D 2ed systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_video_game

It has however morphed over time to include a wider range of videogame systems that ultimately imply that the player has a specific interaction with the character development archetype at the core of the experience.

Basically by the simple virtue of having the option to control the character development and to create certain gameplay scenarios based on that said development a video game can become a role playing game.

Definitely a catch 22 as in another thread, they are literally saying the consequences of the roof decision leading to exclusive situations is bad rpg mechanics, and in this thread they are saying the lack of that is bad rpg mechanics.
 
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