Forbes:. CDPR Faces Extreme Skepticism Ahead Of Cyberpunk 2077’s 1.2 Patch

[Deathlyhearts]

Many of Bethesda's titles do exactly that.

Post automatically merged: Mar 28, 2021

That's fair enough, but you are trying to tell people who aren't happy that they are wrong in their opinions, so it works both ways.

That's not what I am saying at all or are you really going to tell me you honestly believe that comparison between CP and Crusader Kings 3 or Spelunky 2 is fair?

I am no game designer, but it's fairly common knowledge that open world games with missions and story instances where you can approach things in several different ways without having a single loading screen getting in your way in a massive vertical city with massive amounts of NPC's and massive variety of game environments surely is way, way, waaaaaaaaay more complex than a strategy game or a dungeon crawler game with game mechanics from the 90's.

I have no problems when people are disappointed with something, but objectively unfair comparisons doesn't make someone's opinion more credible. Quite the opposite really.

 

[reaper1]

That's not what I am saying at all or are you really going to tell me you honestly believe that comparison between CP and Crusader Kings 3 or Spelunky 2 is fair?

I am no game designer, but it's fairly common knowledge that open world games with missions and story instances where you can approach things in several different ways without having a single loading screen getting in your way in a massive vertical city with massive amounts of NPC's and massive variety of game environments surely is way, way, waaaaaaaaay more complex than a strategy game or a dungeon crawler game with game mechanics from the 90's.

I have no problems when people are disappointed with something, but objectively unfair comparisons doesn't make someone's opinion more credible. Quite the opposite really.

Yes. They are games designed and sold as products for money. You have given a very subjective view of CP2077, but dismiss comparisons as objectively unfair. It works both ways. Some things are clearly down to personal opinion and tastes, but at this point it seems any and every excuse is made on behalf of CDPR, while any criticism or comparisons are deemed unfair. The way the Police operate in the game is absurd, as is the traffic. Many instances where it appears the world has reacted to your input are actually triggers for quite tightly scripted pieces that give the illusion of player participation, yet play out the same regardless. That is below what I reasonably expected from the game, let alone the fact that it has not been optimized in the slightest for consoles.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

I have no problems when people are disappointed with something, but objectively unfair comparisons doesn't make someone's opinion more credible. Quite the opposite really.

You're not wrong but complexity and difficulty isn't a catch-all defense. I've played a lot of games in my life. Some have been sloppy messes. Others have been surprisingly stable and function as intended. In certain cases where this contrast exists it's been with two very similar titles. Aka, one was bad because it was sloppy and/or rushed work. It wasn't because games are difficult.

I'm not sure what exactly any of this has to do with the thread though. I think the write-up was claiming the handling of the patches and updates is just like the hype leading up to the game. Clearly no lessons have been learned in that sphere.

 

[Deathlyhearts]

Yes. They are games designed and sold as products for money. You have given a very subjective view of CP2077, but dismiss comparisons as objectively unfair. It works both ways. Some things are clearly down to personal opinion and tastes, but at this point it seems any and every excuse is made on behalf of CDPR, while any criticism or comparisons are deemed unfair. The way the Police operate in the game is absurd, as is the traffic. Many instances where it appears the world has reacted to your input are actually triggers for quite tightly scripted pieces that give the illusion of player participation, yet play out the same regardless. The is below what I reasonably expected from the game, let alone the fact that it has not been optimized in the slightest for consoles.

I dismiss those claims, as objectively unfair, because that's exactly what they are - when talking facts, personal opinions don't come into play. I am not dismissing them, because they are criticism, but because they are -unfair- critism. You can't compare games who are miles apart both in genre, complexity and amount of game mechanics, environments, details game animations, characters complexity, and any other little detail you can think about, just because they are both products sell for money. If you really can't grasp how redicilous that notion is I really have nothing more to add.

Be my guest to be disappointed about things you feel the game did poorly compared to others of it's class all you like. That's fair if you feel that way, but come on... Stay objective and fair when doing so.

For the record I am not excusing the game's shortcomings. There are plenty of aspects I wish were done differently - longer story, more complex and deeper side story and quests, the complete lack of any 3d person cutscenes was also a bummer for me. The police system not being one of them, cause I never really cared for that mechanic. It can stay in GTA for all I care and imo they should scrap it from the game. But that's my opinion. The way I see it story wise there is literally zero sense V to be hunted constantly around the city by cops and Maxtac, considering a lot of activities you actually work -with- the NCPD.

Anyway it's not about excuses in the face for critism. It's fine to be critical of something if it disappointed you and didn't met your expactations, but it's important to be fair as well, when doing so.

Now I will appreciate it if you stop dragging me into this conversation. I suggest we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[eLmeFist0]

The majority of what you mentioned, either have already been released or were released only a couple of months into the pandemic, which obviously means the pandemic didn't at all (or barely) affected their development process. Yes, some were indeed released late into 2020 or even 2021, but comparing Hitman 3, Yakuza, Crusader Kings 3, Spelunky 2 etc to CP? Come on, seriously.... The scale of those games are on a completely different level. Not comparison whatsoever can be made given how much complex and massive CP is compared to all of them combined.

Meanwhile CP development was hit by the pandemic 7 months before it's release. So your comparisons are far, far from fair.

Not sure how you even placed RDR2 being released late autumn 2020 when it released in 2018.. yaikes.

I did not said all the games mentioned are as complex as Cyberpunk 2077.
My point was the pandemic did not seem to affect gaming companies because the releases were as many as the years before and as good.
To correctly compare would be to make a rapport between complexity and number of developer, money involved in the games.
CDPR is a big company.
A new company like Iron Gate Studio can make a good quality product(Valheim, less complex yes) with only 5 people there is no excuse for the giant CDPR.
IO Interactive managed to release Hitman 3 in 2021 at good quality, good optimization, performance with less then half of people that work for CDPR.
Watch Dogs Legion is not much less complex then Cyberpunk 2077, yet its finished, in working order.
So even though some of the games are less complex, fewer people worked at them so the comparison its ok to make.

 

[exxxed]

Watch Dogs Legion is not much less complex then Cyberpunk 2077, yet its finished, in working order.

Yeah, sure.

Anyway, as for the article at hand.

Journalism at it's finest, cherry picking information to suit a controversial narrative without a hint of objectivity.

Fine work indeed.

 

[Deathlyhearts]

I did not said all the games mentioned are as complex as Cyberpunk 2077.
My point was the pandemic did not seem to affect gaming companies because the releases were as many as the years before and as good.
To correctly compare would be to make a rapport between complexity and number of developer, money involved in the games.
CDPR is a big company.
A new company like Iron Gate Studio can make a good quality product(Valheim, less complex yes) with only 5 people there is no excuse for the giant CDPR.
IO Interactive managed to release Hitman 3 in 2021 at good quality, good optimization, performance with less then half of people that work for CDPR.
Watch Dogs Legion is not much less complex then Cyberpunk 2077, yet its finished, in working order.
So even though some of the games are less complex, fewer people worked at them so the comparison its ok to make.

Like I said from the very beginning I still disagree with some titles you put in that list and I point out which ones. Some of them were released before the pandemic and some barely a month or two into it, which means there wasn't really that much time for the development to be affected more severely.

Also the bigger the studio the more it will get affected negatively when people start working from home IMHO, compared to having less people.

I agree that other games like Watch Dogs and Assassin's Creed wasn't, as much affected sure, but how is Cyberpunk unfished and not in working order? I have several full playthroughs that I finished from start to finish without a single game breaking bug. So does many of my friends and I've seen many, many people don't have any issues finishing the game currently even on base Ps4 and Xbox consoles. The game is still riddled with bugs sure and still in need of -lots- of polishing, but that narrative that it's so completely unplayable seems quite overblown to me.

 

[eLmeFist0]

Yeah, sure.

Anyway, as for the article at hand.

Journalism at it's finest, cherry picking information to suit a controversial narrative without a hint of objectivity.

Fine work indeed.

Can we really compare Cyberpunk 2077 bugginess, playability, optimization with Watch Dogs Legion bugginess, playability, optimization?
Common.

 

[exxxed]

Can we really compare Cyberpunk 2077 bugginess, playability, optimization with Watch Dogs Legion bugginess, playability, optimization?
Common.

Yes, if you watch the video you'll see the similarity, quests breaking, physics going wonky, cars falling through the graphics or spawning in front of the player, bad performance, pop-in, freezes, crashes etc.

On the other hand both games are feature complete and one can experience the entirety of the content presented in the game.

But I'll leave it at this since we have a tendency to go off topic a lot and end up having our posts moderated.

 

[eLmeFist0]

Like I said from the very beginning I still disagree with some titles you put in that list and I point out which ones. Some of them were released before the pandemic and some barely a month or two into it, which means there wasn't really that much time for the development to be affected more severely.

Also the bigger the studio the more it will get affected negatively when people start working from home IMHO, compared to having less people.

I agree that other games like Watch Dogs and Assassin's Creed wasn't, as much affected sure, but how is Cyberpunk unfished and not in working order? I have several full playthroughs that I finished from start to finish without a single game breaking bug. So does many of my friends and I've seen many, many people don't have any issues finishing the game currently even on base Ps4 and Xbox consoles. The game is still riddled with bugs sure and still in need of -lots- of polishing, but that narrative that it's so completely unplayable seems quite overblown to me.

Most of the games i gave example were released autumn 2020 or 2021.
Also i am talking about release when the problems were so many.
Takemura call bug -> game breaking bug. Many complained even on this forum.
Save file bug- > game breaking bug. Many complained even on this forum.
Performance dropping with gameplay over time making the game unplayable. Many complained even on this forum.
Unplayable frame rate(below 20 FPS). Consoles, me, my brother and people with lower end hardware. I and my brother get below 10 fps even. Mostly is below 30 FPS.
Flatline Error every time one launched the game(at release) making the game unplayable. I still get this error almost everytime after ~ 1h playthrough.

 

[Bukary77]

Am I seeing this right?

There are motorcycles on the streets! The pedestrians react quite naturally if you happen to drive on the sidewalk! And the drivers can change direction and adjust their behavior to what's happening on the road!

This is some next-gen stuff! Amazing!

 

[reaper1]

Am I seeing this right?

There are motorcycles on the streets! The pedestrians react quite naturally if you happen to drive on the sidewalk! And the drivers can change direction and adjust their behavior to what's happening on the road!

This is some next-gen stuff! Amazing!

It's just a sign of what this game is lacking in terms of its open world design because while Legion is ok, its open world is extremely sterile and lacking in any immersive features. At this point I am finding it absurd to see how the poor traffic and police implementation and NPC AI are consistently excused for CP2077 as if they are not important to the game. Any other title that featured an open world, city setting would not be excused such basic failures.

 

[Bukary77]

At this point I am finding it absurd to see how the poor traffic and police implementation and NPC AI are consistently excused for CP2077

You know the drill.

I did not notice any problems...
It's not that important...
It does not affect the gameplay...
It's not a driving simulator...
It's not The Bus...
It's perfectly understandable in the game that is so complex and huge...
The pandemic has changed everything...

 

[danickas]

Am I seeing this right?

There are motorcycles on the streets! The pedestrians react quite naturally if you happen to drive on the sidewalk! And the drivers can change direction and adjust their behavior to what's happening on the road!

This is some next-gen stuff! Amazing!

You should play Watch dogs legion then and forget about Cyberpunk.

 

[Mesophocles]

On the other hand both games are feature complete and one can experience the entirety of the content presented in the game.

If you are refering to the old saying "its not a bug, its a feature", you are absolutely correct regarding CP2077 and calling it "feature complete".

 

[vinovat]

Patch 1.2 will be patches and minor changes like Police AI. There is no expectation that this update will bring back cut content! Cut content back in update 1.3 or 1.4!!!

this patch fixes no AI.
making sure police magically teleports behind you (but further back) is no AI fix, but rather a band-aid on a broken leg

this patch is mainly aimed at consoles (to make sure it's less of a shitshow than it is now)

 

[exxxed]

It's just a sign of what this game is lacking in terms of its open world design because while Legion is ok, its open world is extremely sterile and lacking in any immersive features. At this point I am finding it absurd to see how the poor traffic and police implementation and NPC AI are consistently excused for CP2077 as if they are not important to the game. Any other title that featured an open world, city setting would not be excused such basic failures.

I don't think it has anything to do with the overall importance, they are important from an immersive point of view, but the overall aim of both games is different.

Those systems are more important for Legion since the main gameplay loop revolves around it (especially random NPC's and pedestrian AI) while Cyberpunk's gameplay loop revolves around the open ended approach to every quest and the narrative side of it which the pedestrian AI and traffic AI has little to no impact on.

Now personally I agree with you, I do want better pedestrian reactions and traffic fluidity (this last one pisses me right off every time I want to go on a midnight drive).

It's just that the necessity of such systems is not equivalent across the board for every open world game.

Post automatically merged: Mar 28, 2021

If you are refering to the old saying "its not a bug, its a feature", you are absolutely correct regarding CP2077 and calling it "feature complete".

Clever, A+.

 

[ElsonsoJannus]

At this point I am finding it absurd to see how the poor traffic and police implementation and NPC AI are consistently excused for CP2077 as if they are not important to the game. Any other title that featured an open world, city setting would not be excused such basic failures.

It isn't absurd.

Night City is huge and complicated and busy, in three dimensions, and it appears a lot deeper than it actually is. I do think that people get fooled by this because the scale is such that it is easy to see the charade. There are just a lot of places where the game has to just approximate what the city is doing, and people notice.

Cops are going to spawn in. Mobiles are going to spawn and despawn and are simulated at a distance. They are going to react to the player, but their reaction is secondary to the purpose of the game. The "AI" responds to the presence of the player, while trying to manage scale and complexity.

What happens around you in Night City is a simulation, but it is still just a backdrop in a theme park, not a main character. This is not SimCity2077.

The game also has a ton of bugs, so it isn't always possible to say that some limitation in the AI is intended. It could be a bug.

 

[ocimpean]

I guess we will have to wait and see. Until the patch has landed, everything is speculation.