Gta vs cyberpunk

[Metalomaniac16]

This is the exact question I'm asking, so far you keep using standards as a blanket statement and using hyperbole to fight a strawman.

I apologize if I come off as crude and insensitive in this, but it's not getting anywhere and I'm really struggling to understand your aim with this entire argument.

Cyberpunk is an open world narrative driven action RPG, so what standards are we talking about?

The open world and the rpg game standards.

-For open world games: Active npc AI, immersive physics, working police systems (because it was implemented in this game, it's not necesary in open world games with no crime system at all), functional and credible vehicle AI (in case it's a modern day open world game, of course), side activities related to the game's genre. In TW3 we had Gwent, in GTA we have golf, races, tennis, etc.

-For RPG games: Character customization (not just creation), immersive dialogues, real choices that lead to different quests/arcs/characters/endings (Dragon Age Origins did a tremendous job in this field and it set the bar really high, this is the current standard), actual functional perks that helps you play the way you choose, not just gimmicks of freedom that in the end lead you to play everything the same way no matter of your build because they don't really add anything to a playstyle.

Those are some of the current Open World and RPG game standards. Anything below that can't be considered any good. If you want to make a game that is revolutionary and set a NEW standard, then you can't obviate what's already there if you're setting your game in a determinate niche. For instance, you can't make an Open World game without having sites to visit, explore, and pass time with side activities. I mean, YOU CAN, but if you do that then it would not be considered as great since other games in the genre did it better. You can't have an RPG without relevant perks that helps you to ROLE PLAY the way you WANT and NEED to play that way. You can, but if you do, you will be below other games in the genre.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2021

Example of making soccer game without soccer in it, is ridicoulus. Soccer is defined outside video game industry, since XIX century.

We talking about videogames, and since there are no standards in videogames, i can make a soccer game without soccer if i want and call it soccer anyways.

 

[exxxed]

The open world and the rpg game standards.

-For open world games: Active npc AI, immersive physics, working police systems (because it was implemented in this game, it's not necesary in open world games with no crime system at all), functional and credible vehicle AI (in case it's a modern day open world game, of course), side activities related to the game's genre. In TW3 we had Gwent, in GTA we have golf, races, tennis, etc.

-For RPG games: Character customization (not just creation), immersive dialogues, real choices that lead to different quests/arcs/characters/endings (Dragon Age Origins did a tremendous job in this field and it set the bar really high, this is the current standard), actual functional perks that helps you play the way you choose, not just gimmicks of freedom that in the end lead you to play everything the same way no matter of your build because they don't really add anything to a playstyle.

Those are some of the current Open World and RPG game standards. Anything below that can't be considered any good. If you want to make a game that is revolutionary and set a NEW standard, then you can't obviate what's already there if you're setting your game in a determinate niche. For instance, you can't make an Open World game without having sites to visit, explore, and pass time with side activities. I mean, YOU CAN, but if you do that then it would not be considered as great since other games in the genre did it better. You can't have an RPG without relevant perks that helps you to ROLE PLAY the way you WANT and NEED to play that way. You can, but if you do, you will be below other games in the genre.

So basically since we're holding singular titles as the be-all-end-all standard of each genre of games there are no other games that are up to those standards based on that logic.

Also your argument was about basically having an open world game without the open world, an RPG game without the RPG mechanics etc.

See where your argument is flawed?

I agree that such elements would make this game better but it doesn't detract from what it already achieves, I'd personally take a hundred more Cyberpunks than another fantasy trope RPG.

Your personal standards are fairly high I'd say, there will never be an Open World Sandbox cRPG FPS with an open ended narrative as you expect I'm afraid, it's simply not feasible at the moment.

There's always concessions to be made, whether or not they are up to your personal expectations (observe how I swap standards with expectations here) is really not an argument I want to be a part of since it's a one sided game.

My argument was that by lacking those features it doesn't deter from the overall experience already present, yes it would add to it, but that was not the aim as far as I understood it following the game's dev cycle after The Witcher series.

Shame it doesn't meet your expectations (and a few of mine as well), but they are not exactly standards, since to be a standard it means to be part of the norm, outliers whether exceptional or not are not the norm.

What standard stands for in this discussion is pretty much a functional traffic AI algorithm, which it blatantly fails at, that's it, everything else is subjective and can be argued in circles forever (RPG mechanics, dialogue choices, branching narrative, AI etc.).

 

[MrGuyton]

The open world and the rpg game standards.

-For open world games: Active npc AI, immersive physics, working police systems (because it was implemented in this game, it's not necesary in open world games with no crime system at all), functional and credible vehicle AI (in case it's a modern day open world game, of course), side activities related to the game's genre. In TW3 we had Gwent, in GTA we have golf, races, tennis, etc.

-For RPG games: Character customization (not just creation), immersive dialogues, real choices that lead to different quests/arcs/characters/endings (Dragon Age Origins did a tremendous job in this field and it set the bar really high, this is the current standard), actual functional perks that helps you play the way you choose, not just gimmicks of freedom that in the end lead you to play everything the same way no matter of your build because they don't really add anything to a playstyle.

Those are some of the current Open World and RPG game standards. Anything below that can't be considered any good. If you want to make a game that is revolutionary and set a NEW standard, then you can't obviate what's already there if you're setting your game in a determinate niche. For instance, you can't make an Open World game without having sites to visit, explore, and pass time with side activities. I mean, YOU CAN, but if you do that then it would not be considered as great since other games in the genre did it better. You can't have an RPG without relevant perks that helps you to ROLE PLAY the way you WANT and NEED to play that way. You can, but if you do, you will be below other games in the genre.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2021

We talking about videogames, and since there are no standards in videogames, i can make a soccer game without soccer if i want and call it soccer anyways.

Um this seems to be a non sequitur. You can't start with "these are the standards" and finish with "there are no standards"

The first part is a personal wishlist and the second part is how Rocket League happens.

 

[Metalomaniac16]

So basically since we're holding singular titles as the be-all-end-all standard of each genre of games there are no other games that are up to those standards based on that logic.

Also your argument was about basically having an open world game without the open world, an RPG game without the RPG mechanics etc.

See where your argument is flawed?

I agree that such elements would make this game better but it doesn't detract from what it already achieves, I'd personally take a hundred more Cyberpunks than another fantasy trope RPG.

Your personal standards are fairly high I'd say, there will never be an Open World Sandbox cRPG FPS with an open ended narrative as you expect I'm afraid, it's simply not feasible at the moment.

There's always concessions to be made, whether or not they are up to your personal expectations (observe how I swap standards with expectations here) is really not an argument I want to be a part of since it's a one sided game.

My argument was that by lacking those features it doesn't deter from the overall experience already present, yes it would add to it, but that was not the aim as far as I understood it following the game's dev cycle after The Witcher series.

Shame it doesn't meet your expectations (and a few of mine as well), but they are not exactly standards, since to be a standard it means to be part of the norm, outliers whether exceptional or not are not the norm.

What standard stands for in this discussion is pretty much a functional traffic AI algorithm, which it blatantly fails at, that's it, everything else is subjective and can be argued in circles forever (RPG mechanics, dialogue choices, branching narrative, AI etc.).

I think you're missunderstanding me. I'm not saying i'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just saying that there's things that need to be followed and included in order to achieve progress in videogames in general. Simple as that.

About my high standards, well, there are not mine. I don't own anything but my thoughts, but as i mentioned before, there ARE some great games that already achieved most of the things i posted about above. I'm also not saying that CP2077 sucks (i used to think that way before i experienced more even thought i haven't finished my first gameplay because of... things). I'm just saying what everyone else already knows. It lacks depth, immersion, polish and blah blah. That's a neverending discusion.

 

[maniak6767]

The open world and the rpg game standards.

-For open world games: Active npc AI, immersive physics, working police systems (because it was implemented in this game, it's not necesary in open world games with no crime system at all), functional and credible vehicle AI (in case it's a modern day open world game, of course), side activities related to the game's genre. In TW3 we had Gwent, in GTA we have golf, races, tennis, etc.

-For RPG games: Character customization (not just creation), immersive dialogues, real choices that lead to different quests/arcs/characters/endings (Dragon Age Origins did a tremendous job in this field and it set the bar really high, this is the current standard), actual functional perks that helps you play the way you choose, not just gimmicks of freedom that in the end lead you to play everything the same way no matter of your build because they don't really add anything to a playstyle.

Those are some of the current Open World and RPG game standards. Anything below that can't be considered any good. If you want to make a game that is revolutionary and set a NEW standard, then you can't obviate what's already there if you're setting your game in a determinate niche. For instance, you can't make an Open World game without having sites to visit, explore, and pass time with side activities. I mean, YOU CAN, but if you do that then it would not be considered as great since other games in the genre did it better. You can't have an RPG without relevant perks that helps you to ROLE PLAY the way you WANT and NEED to play that way. You can, but if you do, you will be below other games in the genre.
Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 10:53 PM
We talking about videogames, and since there are no standards in videogames, i can make a soccer game without soccer if i want and call it soccer anyways.

That's your opinion how open-world game should work.
Soccer definition is simple and known for decades. There's no cookie cutter definition of open-world games.
Gwent maybe popular to some extent was worst part of Witcher 3 for me. It was unnecessary and not good from narrative perspective of game. You don't need pointless "activities" in games, but some games maybe need it to fill some void, Cyberpunk is not one of them
The thing not everyone played games, you played, so players are different people and have different needs and expectations.
You can make game which is hybrid, like Cyberpunk but expecting:
- shooting competing with COD or Doom;
- driving like in Forza;
- customization and scale of itemization like in World of Warcraft;
etc.etc. etc.
You can nothing stop you from it.
Some games did things 20 years ago, that modern games not even trying to copy.
You are just focused on what GTA games doing better compared to Cyberpunk (not really much), but I could bring games older than 20 years that making things better than Cyberpunk. This rethoric can be endless. if you know a lot of games and played few dozens of year fo your life... Both single player games have to offer same amount of content based on time you need to complete them fully. Both games offer differnt things. And that's it. I've seen some people (sad people) trying to make mayhem in city center acting like some degenerates, if this not audience of Cyberpunk, I'm fine with it.

 

[exxxed]

I think you're missunderstanding me. I'm not saying i'm right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just saying that there's things that need to be followed and included in order to achieve progress in videogames in general. Simple as that.

Never claimed you were, and I fully agree with you here.

About my high standards, well, there are not mine. I don't own anything but my thoughts, but as i mentioned before, there ARE some great games that already achieved most of the things i posted about above.

Yes they achieved one of those things but not all those things together which is what I'm guessing you're trying to say based on your comments.

Like Dragon Age, great gameplay elements and decision/consequence but puerile writing, bland fantasy story, clunky mechanics, dead world, nonexistent NPCs etc.

GTA, fantastic sandbox experience with great detail in it's systems, but sterile approach to narrative (pretty much the same thing, a satire which is exactly the same in each installment, it's a commentary on the US society), rigid mission design which is getting really old now considering how much freedom the game implies, outdated mechanics etc.

This is what I'm trying to say, you seem to be expecting this one game to do everything every other game achieved all at once.

And hold it up to flawed implied standards.

I'm also not saying that CP2077 sucks (i used to think that way before i experienced more even thought i haven't finished my first gameplay because of... things). I'm just saying what everyone else already knows. It lacks depth, immersion, polish and blah blah. That's a neverending discusion.

This is the circular argument right here, yes I agree it lacks refinement it's clear as day.

As for depth and immersion, I disagree completely, people have been putting hundreds upon hundreds of hours into this game, I personally am on my 4th and 5th playthrough (yes two at the same time I started a new one with the new patch and it's been flawless so far 4 hours in) and each and every single one was different except for the main story beats which were approached in a different order every time painting a different picture depending on the character I aim to play.

It's an interesting way of experiencing a non linear story with a branching narrative structure, role playing different types of V.

And then you're going to say that it's completely linear and the RPG mechanics are as deep as Far Cry and I'll refute that by explaining how many ways you can play the story and the character of V in etc. etc. etc.

So it's a matter of expectation and experience I suppose, I expected what CDPR does best (jank included) and I've got exactly that, if anyone expected a Rockstar experience combined with a Bethesda world and NPC's and Obsidian level of narrative interaction then I'm sorry you have not received that and it's not up to your standards.

Cheers!

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2021

Gwent maybe popular to some extent was worst part of Witcher 3 for me. It was unnecessary and not good from narrative perspective of game. You don't need pointless "activities" in games, but some games maybe need it to fill some void, Cyberpunk is not one of them

In all fairness Night City is in dire need of these types of things to make it feel more alive, having interactive arcades, bar stools, drinking and eating animations at the various food vendors, more interactive vendors and ripperdocs instead of the same clunky menus, side activities like some sort of gambling and street races etc.

Perhaps one day.

 

[reaper1]

So it's a matter of expectation and experience I suppose, I expected what CDPR does best (jank included) and I've got exactly that, if anyone expected a Rockstar experience combined with a Bethesda world and NPC's and Obsidian level of narrative interaction then I'm sorry you have not received that and it's not up to your standards.

No. Yet again, the blame is put on the customer. It is apparently "their standards and expectations" that are at fault. The fact is, those expectations were built up by CDPR over a number of years and then they failed to deliver. Simple as that. Moving the goalposts and making excuses for the company does not change that.

 

[exxxed]

No. Yet again, the blame is put on the customer. It is apparently "their standards and expectations" that are at fault. The fact is, those expectations were built up by CDPR over a number of years and then they failed to deliver. Simple as that. Moving the goalposts and making excuses for the company does not change that.

I'm not blaming anyone, how is expecting what CDPR does best an excuse for the company, it's ridiculous to claim such a thing.

That was my opinion from the very beginning back in December, there is no excuse for the state the game was released in, and the customer is not to blame.

But expecting Rockstar level of sandbox out of a CDPR game is only going to be met with disappointment whatever you think the marketing implied.

Every time there's a rebuttal involving expectations you seem to think people are blaming the customers when in reality no product will ever please everyone and explaining why you seem to think that it's casting a blame onto the disappointed factor - when it's just that, an explanation.

 

[reaper1]

I'm not blaming anyone, how is expecting what CDPR does best an excuse for the company, it's ridiculous to claim such a thing.

That was my opinion from the very beginning back in December, there is no excuse for the state the game was released in, and the customer is not to blame.

But expecting Rockstar level of sandbox out of a CDPR game is only going to be met with disappointment whatever you think the marketing implied.

Every time there's a rebuttal involving expectations you seem to think people are blaming the customers when in reality no product will ever please everyone and explaining why you seem to think that it's casting a blame onto the disappointed factor - when it's just that, an explanation.

It's a poor explanation that again appears to shift blame for the shocking release of this game away from CDPR.

 

[exxxed]

It's a poor explanation that again appears to shift blame for the shocking release of this game away from CDPR.

You can't be serious, the so called shocking technical state of the game at release is nothing but CDPR's fault, do I really have to spell it out?

Did I at any point implied otherwise?

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

If it has a city, vehicles and people on the streets- of course it would be compared to the closest similar game!

Makes me think. Would watchdogs not be a closer comparison because of the hacking element for one

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2021

There are standards. You can't make an open world game without making it open to explore. That's an standard. You can't make an rpg without character progression. That's a standard. You can't make a shooter without fire arms but melee weapons only. That's a standard.

These are indeed fundamental in the same way as how a soccer game is about the namesake sport soccer. I give you that.
But, firstly: none of these are not in CP, thus rendered moot. As for all the 'standards' that were being discussed, they are not part of that foundation. And as such can also not be used as: must adhere to.
The only way that would allow for that is if CDPR said it would be there. But just expecting it, because.. game standards. --> that doesnt fly.

Thirdly, I cant help but notice you disagree with me while agreeing with @maniak6767 's statement which is exactly the same I was saying. Maybe I didn't convey correctly, Idk. Just something I noticed.

 

[Milfguard2077]

GTA is probably older than you are, with a few mods it looks better than many modern games and still runs great.

with a few mods, yes, not sure what that has to do with its age in relation to my age?

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2021

There are standards. You can't make an open world game without making it open to explore. That's an standard. You can't make an rpg without character progression. That's a standard. You can't make a shooter without fire arms but melee weapons only. That's a standard.

Bugs and glitches are the less important thing here. Bugs can be fixed, glitches can be fixed.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2021

So, you're telling me that there are no standards? I can make a game that is labeled as a fight game but have no fight at all? It would be abnormal if people told me that i wasn't following the fighting game basic standard who's be able to actually fight?

there is no "standard" - there are genre's and examples of that genre - but no, no standard

if you made a "fighting game" without fighting, your game would end up in the genre the public puts you in

for example... The Room this film was made by a guy called Tommy Wiseau - It is was intended to be a drama, after its release and reception it is now loosely a "dark comedy"

 

[Metalomaniac16]

So it's a matter of expectation and experience I suppose, I expected what CDPR does best (jank included) and I've got exactly that, if anyone expected a Rockstar experience combined with a Bethesda world and NPC's and Obsidian level of narrative interaction then I'm sorry you have not received that and it's not up to your standards.

Cheers!

Ok, i'm just going to conclude here because we're definitely not going to agree in every aspect of what should be done in games and what doesn't need to. Despite that, this has been the most nice debate i had with anyone in a long time. Hope you have a good day.

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2021

These are indeed fundamental in the same way as how a soccer game is about the namesake sport soccer. I give you that.
But, firstly: none of these are not in CP, thus rendered moot. As for all the 'standards' that were being discussed, they are not part of that foundation. And as such can also not be used as: must adhere to.
The only way that would allow for that is if CDPR said it would be there. But just expecting it, because.. game standards. --> that doesnt fly.

Thirdly, I cant help but notice you disagree with me while agreeing with @maniak6767 's statement which is exactly the same I was saying. Maybe I didn't convey correctly, Idk. Just something I noticed.

Yeah, i think i maybe didn't followed what you meant to say exactly.

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2021

That's your opinion how open-world game should work.
Soccer definition is simple and known for decades. There's no cookie cutter definition of open-world games.
Gwent maybe popular to some extent was worst part of Witcher 3 for me. It was unnecessary and not good from narrative perspective of game. You don't need pointless "activities" in games, but some games maybe need it to fill some void, Cyberpunk is not one of them
The thing not everyone played games, you played, so players are different people and have different needs and expectations.
You can make game which is hybrid, like Cyberpunk but expecting:
- shooting competing with COD or Doom;
- driving like in Forza;
- customization and scale of itemization like in World of Warcraft;
etc.etc. etc.
You can nothing stop you from it.
Some games did things 20 years ago, that modern games not even trying to copy.
You are just focused on what GTA games doing better compared to Cyberpunk (not really much), but I could bring games older than 20 years that making things better than Cyberpunk. This rethoric can be endless. if you know a lot of games and played few dozens of year fo your life... Both single player games have to offer same amount of content based on time you need to complete them fully. Both games offer differnt things. And that's it. I've seen some people (sad people) trying to make mayhem in city center acting like some degenerates, if this not audience of Cyberpunk, I'm fine with it.

There's definitely people that love this game, and as i said before, i don't hate it either. I love some of the mechanics, some of the gameplay aspects, and i'm not gonna lie, sometimes i get immerse in fights, but there's definitely something that is not right with this game and i think it has to do with everything i mentioned before. Still, glad there's still time for having nice conversations without everyone getting salty and attacking everyone.

 

[exxxed]

Ok, i'm just going to conclude here because we're definitely not going to agree in every aspect of what should be done in games and what doesn't need to. Despite that, this has been the most nice debate i had with anyone in a long time. Hope you have a good day.

I think in principle we agree on a lot of stuff, all the companies should be held to such scrutiny and CDPR is definitely no saint.

I just like their products and expect them to improve, I see the flaws and I also see the good stuff, and for me personally the good stuff is enough to glance over the issues for now.

I too have enjoyed our discussion and I bid you farewell .

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

Yeah, i think i maybe didn't followed what you meant to say exactly.

No worries mate, Thats what we have this topic for, to discuss and debate our views.

 

[mips13]

with a few mods, yes, not sure what that has to do with its age in relation to my age?

It's just a saying, meaning it's old. It doesn't actually have anything to do with your age.

 

[Cali66]

Trying to compare the two is like trying to compare apples and oranges.
One is set is set in the distant past and the other is set in the distant future.
I hope that helps to clarify things.

 

[J.a.y_m.o.h]

A remaster of San Andreas would be far much better compared to Cyberpunk on PS4 at this point. I wish they would just fix the game fully. It's a shame that such a good storyline and awesome missions are going to waste because of the bad graphics and errors.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

The open world and the rpg game standards.

-For open world games: Active npc AI, immersive physics, working police systems (because it was implemented in this game, it's not necesary in open world games with no crime system at all), functional and credible vehicle AI (in case it's a modern day open world game, of course), side activities related to the game's genre. In TW3 we had Gwent, in GTA we have golf, races, tennis, etc.

-For RPG games: Character customization (not just creation), immersive dialogues, real choices that lead to different quests/arcs/characters/endings (Dragon Age Origins did a tremendous job in this field and it set the bar really high, this is the current standard), actual functional perks that helps you play the way you choose, not just gimmicks of freedom that in the end lead you to play everything the same way no matter of your build because they don't really add anything to a playstyle.

Those are some of the current Open World and RPG game standards. Anything below that can't be considered any good. If you want to make a game that is revolutionary and set a NEW standard, then you can't obviate what's already there if you're setting your game in a determinate niche. For instance, you can't make an Open World game without having sites to visit, explore, and pass time with side activities. I mean, YOU CAN, but if you do that then it would not be considered as great since other games in the genre did it better. You can't have an RPG without relevant perks that helps you to ROLE PLAY the way you WANT and NEED to play that way. You can, but if you do, you will be below other games in the genre.

Post automatically merged: Apr 14, 2021

We talking about videogames, and since there are no standards in videogames, i can make a soccer game without soccer if i want and call it soccer anyways.

having a police system doesn't mean you would have a similar system to a game named grand theft auto, whose primary design is to have stealing of cars, and cops chasing you.

having vehicles in an open world doesn't mean you will have city Ai vehicle simulation.

it is unrealistic to each sub feature that exists in a game to be equal to or better than the best version of a game designed primarily around that feature.

The cops in this game are mechanic to punish civilian kills, and a prop. They are not a primary game loop. The vehicle AI in the city is designed to simulate real world city traffic at a surface level. Its mostly a prop.

the vehicle AI I'm gta is designed to let you drive around at high speeds, not be true to the general feeling of driving in urban CA.

https://socalpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/LA-traffic-photo-by-Florian-Wehde-on-Unsplash.jpg

the whole game is designed around creating fun compelling car cops and robbers, cyberpunk's purpose is to create a compelling rpg experience. The open world's purpose to feel like a cyberpunk city. IMO the city is a huge success at setting the scene and feeling like a place of many stories.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

A remaster of San Andreas would be far much better compared to Cyberpunk on PS4 at this point. I wish they would just fix the game fully. It's a shame that such a good storyline and awesome missions are going to waste because of the bad graphics and errors.

For San Andreas and for quote someone :
"I don't know why... but i have some doubts"

Bad graphics ? It seems to me that we should not play the same game. On PS4, maybe for now, but i'm sur they will resolve that