Yeah, there are things to fix... But also we have things to enjoy

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Endings don't have to be happy, they are good as they are, they probably went for bitter-sweet ending, but they are more bitter than sweet, this is next unrealistic expectation because it's hard for me to even remember one cyberpunk movie with hollywoodish "good"ending.

FFS. I'm sick of people claiming players who didn't like the endings have unrealistic expectations based on the one or two Cyberpunk movies they probably now. The Cyberpunk genre has many examples of good or okay endings with hope for the future, just look at the Sprawl books or Snow Crash. Or GitS. Even Blade Runner, which isn't even full Cyberpunk except for its style, actually can be interpreted as quite hopeful.
And the happy/unhappy ending thing is not even the biggest problem with the endings. It's that they are all more or less the same (V alsways gets plot cancer, only the scenery is different.) and one random decision on a rooftop decides Vs whole future.
 
FPP quality is top notch, with excellent body presence, combined with tricks during scenes when you can feel you mass of your body.
That's true (for me at least) :)
It change of most of FPP I have played, where you can't see your own feet... And the view feel like a camera floating above the ground... Never any movement or anything... just a floating camera at fixed height :(
(little return to F4 or Outer Worlds, it's a shock...)
 
You talk about design choices. Point me to game with excellent FPP combined with excellent TPP. I'm waiting. That's next unrealistic expectation to have, we are 6 months after release, and some people still dreaming. [...]

FPP quality is top notch, with excellent body presence, combined with tricks during scenes when you can feel you mass of your body.
[...] Clear design choice is : player never lose controle over character, during dialogues,during combat and other activiites. That's impossible with TPP cutscenes. And that's not new idea, it was done for in HL1 but for some reason people forgot you can make games like that...
Also opinion about character customization is just echo of other opinions, because clearly, you can see what you wear all the time, you can even hear different sounds from different clothes.
You see your skin color, fingers (even tits, junk)all the time, and it's part of character customization.
Endings don't have to be happy, they are good as they are, they probably went for bitter-sweet ending, but they are more bitter than sweet, this is next unrealistic expectation because it's hard for me to even remember one cyberpunk movie with hollywoodish "good"ending.
Interesting. You use the word 'excellent' FFP with TPP in a game. You say that your are waiting? Really? You're just going to have to wait. Why? There is no such thing as an excellent or perfect game. Never will be. All I said is that all games of this caliber (AAA) should have this available to the player, nothing more.

As for your opinion of the use of FFP in this game, I have to give you that one. I admit that the use of FFP in 2077 is the best I have seen in a game. Do I prefer TPP? Yes, I do. Every player has their own views on this item.

As for the endings, you may be right I really don't know. I am not one well versed in the cyberpunk world and I have no problem admitting that. But...this is not a book, not a movie, this is a 'game'. As such, the developers, writers have many options available to them (during development) for any kind of ending they wish to give the many players, options for the endings. I did not in anyway suggest that these should be implemented in this game at this point nor would I.

I can dismiss the rest of your response by saying that I cited my 'rules' of what games in this day and age could / should have available to the players. It was a comment on my part. Your response was interesting reading if nothing else.

Thanks for your comment.
 
FFS. I'm sick of people claiming players who didn't like the endings have unrealistic expectations based on the one or two Cyberpunk movies they probably now. The Cyberpunk genre has many examples of good or okay endings with hope for the future, just look at the Sprawl books or Snow Crash. Or GitS. Even Blade Runner, which isn't even full Cyberpunk except for its style, actually can be interpreted as quite hopeful.
And the happy/unhappy ending thing is not even the biggest problem with the endings. It's that they are all more or less the same (V alsways gets plot cancer, only the scenery is different.) and one random decision on a rooftop decides Vs whole future.
Ofc it's unrealistic, because which one Blade Runner had good ending? First one ended with Rachel having short time to live, it's bitter-sweet ending, and kinda similar to Cyberpunk 2077 - and If you think that was good ending, just watch 2nd movie...
New Blade Runner also had very bitter-sweet ending: K is dead, but delivered Deckard to his daughter (whole character is also tragic because she can't move outside her special bubble), even a little bit more bitter than sweet. What is really hopefull about that one?
GITS ending is also bitter-sweet. Motoko will survive, but only as new entity merged with Puppet Master -I'm not really sure what is hopefull about this ending, pretty much bitter-sweet and I would say not really satysfying If you liked her character, at least for me. If you like this ending then ending with Silverhand taking body should be postive one,lol, because at this point it's impossible to fully separate Silverhand from V, even Alt mentionted it, if I'm not wrong.
That's simply not true. There are times in the game where you are "locked" into a situation and unable to freely move/leave.
And you can be hit by car, and stunned by grenade. When you games start TPP cutscene you can't control you're character in any way. You can just watch cutscene. While sometimes in Cyberpunk you are locked into chair or sit inside car, you can stil look around and creare your own frame for scene.
Interesting. You use the word 'excellent' FFP with TPP in a game. You say that your are waiting? Really? You're just going to have to wait. Why? There is no such thing as an excellent or perfect game. Never will be. All I said is that all games of this caliber (AAA) should have this available to the player, nothing more.
Nobody did top notch TPP combined with top notch FPP. One mode is always addition to main one. Bethesda games: good FPP, trashy TPP. Rockstar: very good TPP, FPP is just there. I'm not even sure why this should be necessary. There's plenty of TPP games and rarely I can see people asking for FPP mode for them (for example AC series or Dark Souls), or it's hard to imagine Far Cry in TPP. Most people dont think about GTA as FPP, even when there's option for it.
Why FPP games should do more than TPP games?
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That's true (for me at least) :)
It change of most of FPP I have played, where you can't see your own feet... And the view feel like a camera floating above the ground... Never any movement or anything... just a floating camera at fixed height :(
(little return to F4 or Outer Worlds, it's a shock...)
Yes and I don't get why people say customization, clothes are pointles, when you can look at it whole time...I think that different sounds for different types of clothes were a little bit overkill, but nice detail...
 
And you can be hit by car, and stunned by grenade. When you games start TPP cutscene you can't control you're character in any way. You can just watch cutscene. While sometimes in Cyberpunk you are locked into chair or sit inside car, you can stil look around and creare your own frame for scene.
I wasn't referring to anything other than the fact that the statement you made wasn't accurate. I wasn't making comparisons to other games. There are what in effect act like cut-scenes in this game whereby the player ceases to have full control of the character.
 
"Nobody did top notch TPP combined with top notch FPP. One mode is always addition to main one. Bethesda games: good FPP, trashy TPP. Rockstar: very good TPP, FPP is just there. I'm not even sure why this should be necessary. There's plenty of TPP games and rarely I can see people asking for FPP mode for them (for example AC series or Dark Souls), or it's hard to imagine Far Cry in TPP. Most people dont think about GTA as FPP, even when there's option for it.
Why FPP games should do more than TPP games?"
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OK, fair enough. I still stand behind what I said, but I get it. ;)

EDIT: Oh, and by the way? I can imagine Far Cry in TPP quite easily. Just sayin...
 
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The biggest problem CDPR has is that its popular to trash it. I don't think anyone had a right to complain. Free refunds, promise to fix and follow-through on their promises.

[…] I dont think anyone who played it (except on last gen concoles) thought that "You know what, I dont think this game was worth 60$." The amount of people who vote the game was not worth it VASTLY outnumber the people who actually took the refund.
 
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Okay, Cyberpunk is an unfinished game due to the hurries it was submitted and has a lot of problems. But, while we are waiting for the developers to fix them, why not appreciate the things that are well done?
MUSIC
VIEWS & ENVIRONMENT
STORY
SECONDARY STORYLINES
STYLE (PEOPLE & TRANSPORT)
I definately agree.
I specifically also like to comment on the music part, because it find the songs that you hear via the radio, but also the various themes excellent. Also I am very, very, VERY happy they didn't go for the wavey a la Tron type of synth music that you may get to think off. I really like the heavier more industrial tune (at least its how I call it) that most music has. It fits with what I would consider cyberpunk as a world to be, evenly so with the look of the city. On the surface one might looks at the flashy neon colors, the style over substance approach. but underneath (deep within the shadows even) the darkness rules. I'm thinking of the darkness such as depicted in the Loviisa Kaukonen message. Translate that into everyday streetlife ... yeah, I can definately imagine how taking up a flashy style can be used to hide something dark.

I also love the designs of the various things you find, such as cars and all.

There's much to love, and love it I do :)
 
My statement was correct, your interpretation was wrong.
I don't want to get into a skirmish here, but that won't do. My interpretation is fine, you are moving the goalposts. You claimed that in CP2077, the player retains control of their character during cut-scenes. That is not the case on a number of occasions. Locked into sitting in a chair is not free movement.
Clear design choice is : player never lose controle over character, during dialogues,during combat and other activiites.
 
Ofc it's unrealistic, because which one Blade Runner had good ending? First one ended with Rachel having short time to live, it's bitter-sweet ending, and kinda similar to Cyberpunk 2077 - and If you think that was good ending, just watch 2nd movie...

I don't want to start a skirmish here, but why did you focus on the two examples probably everyone nows (Blade Runner and GitS), but not on the ones who are THE seminal examples and codifiers of Cyberpunk literature and Cyberpunk as a whole - the Sprawl books (Neuromancer, Count Zero, Mona Lisa Overdrive, the Buring Chrome short stories) and Snow Crash? They have quite a variety of outcomes and endings, characters who survive, some who enter a different plane of existence and others that just go home after a long day.

And I would argue that even the endings of Blade Runner and GitS are more positive than what V experiences, even the Blade Runner sequel to some extent (K dies (probably), but Deckard reunites with his daugher, so at least there is some payoff). And in GItS Makoto wanted to merge with the Puppet Master if I remember correctly and she seems quite content in the sequel I think.

And, as someone else mentioned, CP2077 is a game. You get much more emotionally invested in a long game, and you'd expect that you have more of an influcence on the outcome, especially if the game calls itself an RPG.
Even in Witcher 3, which is set in a pretty grim world where lots of shitty stuff happens, you can influence Geralt's fate and have a chance to reach some kind of happy state based on your actions.
 
I don't want to start a skirmish here, but why did you focus on the two examples probably everyone nows (Blade Runner and GitS), but not on the ones who are THE seminal examples and codifiers of Cyberpunk literature and Cyberpunk as a whole - the Sprawl books (Neuromancer, Count Zero, Mona Lisa Overdrive, the Buring Chrome short stories) and Snow Crash? They have quite a variety of outcomes and endings, characters who survive, some who enter a different plane of existence and others that just go home after a long day.

And I would argue that even the endings of Blade Runner and GitS are more positive than what V experiences, even the Blade Runner sequel to some extent (K dies (probably), but Deckard reunites with his daugher, so at least there is some payoff). And in GItS Makoto wanted to merge with the Puppet Master if I remember correctly and she seems quite content in the sequel I think.

And, as someone else mentioned, CP2077 is a game. You get much more emotionally invested in a long game, and you'd expect that you have more of an influcence on the outcome, especially if the game calls itself an RPG.
Even in Witcher 3, which is set in a pretty grim world where lots of shitty stuff happens, you can influence Geralt's fate and have a chance to reach some kind of happy state based on your actions.
One of the endings of CP2077 is almost a 1:1 copy of Bobby,Angie,the Finn fate in Monalise Overdrive(temperance). In burning chrome they make the money,they loose the girl. In Neuromancer Case/Molly relationship goes south and you don't know about them till Monalise (and Case is no longer a console Cowboy) and the consequences of their actions are not clear till Count Zero. In Count Zero you have 3 story arcs,Angie/Bobby is not closed till Monalise,Turner ends kind of Star ending and Marly is the one that is happier(kind of Sun for an art curator I guess).
Snow Crash its maybe the only one with a clear win scenario for Hiro and Y.T(or maybe some improvement about their situation?) but the world as such stays pretty much the same.
 
One of the endings of CP2077 is almost a 1:1 copy of Bobby,Angie,the Finn fate in Monalise Overdrive(temperance). In burning chrome they make the money,they loose the girl. In Neuromancer Case/Molly relationship goes south and you don't know about them till Monalise (and Case is no longer a console Cowboy) and the consequences of their actions are not clear till Count Zero. In Count Zero you have 3 story arcs,Angie/Bobby is not closed till Monalise,Turner ends kind of Star ending and Marly is the one that is happier(kind of Sun for an art curator I guess).
Snow Crash its maybe the only one with a clear win scenario for Hiro and Y.T(or maybe some improvement about their situation?) but the world as such stays pretty much the same.

but would you consider these endings as uniformly negative as what V gets? For example Angie and Bobby at least go to Cyberspace together and aren't in danger of getting consumed by "rogue AI's". And Case and Molly never were in love, so they just went their different ways...and as you said, Marly or Turner had quite positive endings. As for Snow Crash..well, I kinda like that one best, maybe it is because of the positive outcome. It was never their aim to change the world, but at least they managed to save the world and underwent some personal growth (also, I think Snow Crash has one of the best intro chapters in all of SF/fantasy. Hiro as the Deliverator is just so entertaining.) :ROFLMAO:
 
Lets try to don´t spoil a lot of endings and novels and don´t summon forum moderators :)
but would you consider these endings as uniformly negative as what V gets? For example Angie and Bobby at least go to Cyberspace together and aren't in danger of getting consumed by "rogue AI's".
Well, if you look at the whole Angie story (poor girl destiny is even more on-rails than V story, even before birth) she is already "aligned"(if not possesed) with Rogue AIs no-even in Count Zero, I mean.
And Case and Molly never were in love, so they just went their different ways..
There is a small letter from Molly to Case no? This links also with another short-story that I'm pretty sure that you know "Johnny Mnemonic" that links with the "happy" states of Marly/Turner (we can also mention Kumiko and Mona perhaps?, kind of happy but Mona will be controlled by others at the end), I would not bet that they are alive at all knowing how Gibson dealt with Johnny at the end of his story and what is revealed about his fate in Neuromancer...

I would say that all the characters share something with V (also the guy from "New Rose hotel"-sorry I don´t remember his name right now, and my copy of "Burning Chrome" its somewhere between tons of books- whose heist went even worse than V and Jackie): they are not in control of their own story practically never, they are always pawns of bigger forces/actors.

Without going into endings (that we probably have all written ad-nauseum in this forum,including myself).

I can imagine that what bothers is "Vs end timer", which its for me just a plot device (how will you end like Angie if not?) and a door open (or not) for an expansion.I can understand people wanting a "epic happy all problems solved" ending, but taking into account the themes that they wanted to touch would have not make a lot of sense.

"Snowcrash" is highly recommended, is the most epic-ridiculous intro of a protoganist (I mean is "Hiro Protagonist" literally and his business card is also hilarious). The whole book is satire in Cyberpunk setting that is written by a genious (some critics argued, that Stephenson actually made a satire of the whole Cyberpunk genre at the same time).

PS: little unrelated, but never thought before how many female characters with a protagonist role (in bigger or lesser degree) uses Gibson, not just in Sprawl but also in Bridge , Blue Ant and Peripheral...
 
First of all, it was a disappointment for me that the main missions were short and only the beginnings of the characters were different.
Why are there only "2" prostitutes in the huge night city?
Why do we make love automatically?
Why don't we auto-fight the irritating ninja oda in the Play It Safe quest?
Game it would be nice if it was more interactive. I wasn't ready to meet the ninja "oda" either. I repeated the section 20 times. On the 8th iteration, the game could ask me if I should cancel the mission? (I would cancel, but I passed). i am angary, i sorry.
Also there were various minor bugs, the most glaring of which was the weapon upgrade button was not working in different resolution.
It's still a fun and good game. I expect a nice mission pack from you (cdpr).
Have a nice day!
 

ya1

Forum regular
I think the problem for many people is not that there aren't things to enjoy in CP77 as much as that those things are soured by the simple fact that the game is underdeveloped.

The only real problem this game has is the bugs.

With all respect, I beg to differ. In my opinion, bugs are just a tip of an iceberg.


And sorry what [is that] about game being "unfinished"?


1) Underdeveloped engine, 2) Dysfunctional AI, 3) Underdeveloped environment, 4) Underdeveloped physics, 5) (IMO THIS SHOULD BE NUMBER 1) Untested, falsely described and hyper unbalanced gameplay, 6) Lack of diverse open world content, 7) Lack of customization, 8) Lack of environment interactivity, 9) Relatively short story arcs, and low number thereof, 10) Lack of rpg-esque endgame content

I could go to 20 and further but I would be like a 100,000th person to do that on the internet.

not saying story is not 10/10 because it is

I feel like this doesn't do justice to the true masterpieces of storytelling in games: Disco Elysium, Witcher 3, Torment series, many of the old point-and-click adventures like Beneath the Steel Sky, I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream, etc.

The writing - I find it competent, good. But this is no high lit like Disco Elysium. This is more like good Netflix.

Plot, however, it oozes patchiness. 2 out of 4 main story arcs are completely irrelevant to main story.
Panam/Hellman arc could be entirely cut and there would be no missing links in the plot. Judy/Eve arc could be skipped if V just called Mr Hands and asked, "Do you know anyone tech/AI-savvy I could do a quest for?" Moreover, the only thing Takemura arc concludes at outside the Arasaka ending is the location of Mikoshi which is - who could've thunk - Arasaka HQ. The only arc that truly matters for the plot is the VDB/Alt arc.

What's more, the story almost completely lacks mystery.
The only mystery is "Who is Alt and what is Mikoshi?" but that is more obvious than "Will Vin Diesel survive in this Fast and Furious?" (Gotta give credit to Peralez and the vending machine side stories, though, they build up mystery pretty aptly.)
Also, the plot almost completely lacks twists.
The only twist is Saburo's death in the prologue.

Honestly, if this plot were used to make a movie, it would not be a very good movie.

Besides, most lore is in a form of a copy-pasta dialogue like "A: We're about to do a crime. B: But they are coming to do a crime on you first. A: So I guess someone will have kill them and pick all that loot from amongst our dead bodies." I'm so into lore, I read everything in most games, but this got old after 5 times.
 
I think the problem for many people is not that there aren't things to enjoy in CP77 as much as that those things are soured by the simple fact that the game is underdeveloped.
What I see on these forums as the most prevalent is the many mechanical and technical issues that have a large variety between player experiences. But that sounds like a fair assessment.
With all respect, I beg to differ. In my opinion, bugs are just a tip of an iceberg.
1) Underdeveloped engine, 2) Dysfunctional AI, 3) Underdeveloped environment, 4) Underdeveloped physics, 5) (IMO THIS SHOULD BE NUMBER 1) Untested, falsely described and hyper unbalanced gameplay, 6) Lack of diverse open world content, 7) Lack of customization, 8) Lack of environment interactivity, 9) Relatively short story arcs, and low number thereof, 10) Lack of rpg-esque endgame content

I could go to 20 and further but I would be like a 100,000th person to do that on the internet.
Disclaimer: I have not followed the hype, so the explicits about what was presented, promised at one time and what ultimately may have become player expectation I do not know. But from many posts I've read it seems that many expected several elements that may never have been part of the game, or werent certain to become such. And yes, I am aware of the marketing having gone out of hand so one does not help the other.

Long story short, the hype surrounding this game was so high, I still view NMS (launch) as a sort of equivalent in what seems to have happened. Culminating in the moment of launch into... Well that we know.
I feel like this doesn't do justice to the true masterpieces of storytelling in games: Disco Elysium, Witcher 3, Torment series, many of the old point-and-click adventures like Beneath the Steel Sky, I Have No Mouth But I Must Scream, etc.

The writing - I find it competent, good. But this is no high lit like Disco Elysium. This is more like good Netflix.
Plot, however, it oozes patchiness. 2 out of 4 main story arcs are completely irrelevant to main story.
Panam/Hellman arc could be entirely cut and there would be no missing links in the plot. Judy/Eve arc could be skipped if V just called Mr Hands and asked, "Do you know anyone tech/AI-savvy I could do a quest for?" Moreover, the only thing Takemura arc concludes at outside the Arasaka ending is the location of Mikoshi which is - who could've thunk - Arasaka HQ. The only arc that truly matters for the plot is the VDB/Alt arc.

What's more, the story almost completely lacks mystery.
The only mystery is "Who is Alt and what is Mikoshi?" but that is more obvious than "Will Vin Diesel survive in this Fast and Furious?" (Gotta give credit to Peralez and the vending machine side stories, though, they build up mystery pretty aptly.)
Also, the plot almost completely lacks twists.
The only twist is Saburo's death in the prologue.

Honestly, if this plot were used to make a movie, it would not be a very good movie.
I beg to differ on this. A plot does not require complexity or many twists and turns to make a good movie. (Alien, Predator, Terminator, I could go on)
These are all good movies with very simple plot.
CP77 plot just does not hinge on a big twist specifically. I suppose only the ending does. But even in its more or less linear setup the plot is sufficient.
I do agree that, specifically because its a large open world game, it could be deepened more than it is. But as it is its not really a detractor in itself.
Besides, most lore is in a form of a copy-pasta dialogue like "A: We're about to do a crime. B: But they are coming to do a crime on you first. A: So I guess someone will have kill them and pick all that loot from amongst our dead bodies." I'm so into lore, I read everything in most games, but this got old after 5 times.
I agree with that reading the amount of shards gets weary. It would not have suffered from diversity in how you learn these background thingies. Or have them incorporated in the flow of the gig in some other way.
 
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