Patch Notes 9.3

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This selfeater vs BGF is the classic case of double counting. When BGF uses the coins generated by other cards, it is the other card which generates the value and not BGF. If you consider that BGF is using those coins, which just means that the other cards played for far lesser value. BGF is on board and the player plays smuggle and use the three coins to do three damage. Total number of points in those two turns is 12 from 2 cards. On the other hand Self-Eater gets split into two and then GanCean is played, GanCean plays for 9 and SelfEater gains more points. Next turn, another GanCean or a crone gets played, the other card plays for its full value all the while SelfEater gets more and more points.

In case of BGF, the coins generated by the other card is simply used by BGF. If you count those coins for BGF, you shouldn't count those coins for the cards. It is that simple. All this argument would make sense if we are discussing about the Ranged row lock Halfling, whenever coins get generated, she boosts herself.

In logical sense I cant compare SelfEater and BGF. One is an engine which can go completely out of hands and the other is a static card which is just as good as any other spenders.
But you forget to say you have a lot of cheap cards that generate coins and needed to be spend, while in MO you dont have a lot of cheap bronzes relicts. Thats totaly different.

Sometimes you need to play good golds to make selfeater has good value, while with BGF you can only spend your cheap card crimes and use the coins generated with BGF.

Also, in other hand we have blightmaker, wich is an instant 11 points for 6 provision.

You know how much you need to get 12 points value with SE now?

turn 1 play SE - 5 points
turn 2 - 2 and 2 - play the relict - 3 and 3
turn 3 - 3 and 1 and 1 - play the relict - 4 and 2 and 2
turn 4 - 4 and 2 and 1 and 1 - play the relict - 5 and 3 and 2 and 2

So, after 4 turns your selfeater if its not been killed with a single 2 damage in turn 3 (or 4 damage in turn 2 or even 5 damage in turn 1) has one more potential than blightmaker.

Now thinks how much relicts do you have to do that?

2 Gan Caen
2 pigs
1 another SE
3 moiras
1 rat catcher
1 mamunna
1 blood mistres
1 SWH or caretaker or not (since a lot of players dont use this 2 last cards)

So you have more 11/12 cards to get SE value. But, of course, in round 1 you wont use mamunna and BM. Also, problably in this new patch you dont have SWK.
From moiras you probably whant to save the damage for others round, so you will only use 2 of them.

The bronze cores you probably wont use both SE in the same round, and, also, you probalby wont use the other 2 doubles to not bricks mamunna.

So you will have, in fact.

2 - piigs
1 - gaen cann
2 - moiras
1 - rat catchess

Only 6 cards (playable and not commit the game) to buff SE it in round 1.

If you have luck, you get those 6 cards, your SE dont get killed, and play this 6 cards and your SE will have a huge value. If you have a little less luck you will get 4 of them and your SE will get a good value, more than blightmaker after 5 turns. One more time, if it wont get killed/blocked.

And, of course, i need to remember you used 3 gold cards in process

If you are unlucky you will get 3 or less and your SE will have less value than blightmaker in 4 turns, while, i repeat, blightmaker its instant play.

Also, problably you used 1 gold card in process

So the nerf in mamunna and BM i think it was necessary. The nerf in SE was too much.
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Continuing. You know something funny? SE beeing at 6 points base power already needs 4 turns to have more value than blightmaker

turn 1 play SE - 6 points
turn 2 - 3 and 3 - play the relict - 4 and 4
turn 3 - 4 and 2 and 2 - play the relict - 5 and 3 and 3
turn 4 - 5 and 3 and 1 and 1 - play the relict - 6 and 4 and 2 and 2

In this case in the turn 4 it will have 14 points, wich is really good indeed. But i already show in the last post you need to play relicts and thats not that easy.

Lets get another cenário. - andregas's larva.
Turn 1 - play larva 2 and 2
turn 2 - plays anything - 3 and 3
turn 3 - plays anything - 4 and 4
turn 4 plays anything taller than 4 - 5 and 5

So only in turn 4 the new SE gets 2 points more than andrega.

Also, of course, if you continue playing relicts the SE will have much value than larva. In other hand, larva you dont need to play relicts, only tall units, wich here includes kikimore worker, wich is a tall unit with 4 provision, and also elder bear.

So, as i said in another post, only having more cheap relicts the nerf in SE will be ok, untill there she need to continue at 6 power
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i think blightmakers only will be ok if the token creates has only 1 base power. In that case i also can agree it can drops 1 provision
 
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Actually, now that i think about it, SE is not an engine. Engines are cards that once you meet their requirements they keep generating points even after you pass.

SY has cards like Passiflora Peaches, Sly Seductress, Saul De Navarette etc.

MO have Witch Apprentice, The Beast, Nagalfar's Crew etc.

SE doesn't generate points passively if you meet the conditions so it's not an engine. You have to use the order ability and then play a relict to get value.

On the other side, BGF you have to first play a crime to get the coins and the use the order to get the value so it's also not a engine.

Again in this regard they are very similar so why should BGF be left at 6 while SE was nerfed to 5?
Not to mention SE is still 6 provision while BGF is only 5.
 
Actually, now that i think about it, SE is not an engine. Engines are cards that once you meet their requirements they keep generating points even after you pass.

SY has cards like Passiflora Peaches, Sly Seductress, Saul De Navarette etc.

MO have Witch Apprentice, The Beast, Nagalfar's Crew etc.

SE doesn't generate points passively if you meet the conditions so it's not an engine. You have to use the order ability and then play a relict to get value.

On the other side, BGF you have to first play a crime to get the coins and the use the order to get the value so it's also not a engine.

Again in this regard they are very similar so why should BGF be left at 6 while SE was nerfed to 5?
Not to mention SE is still 6 provision while BGF is only 5.
Team Leviathan Gaming defines an engine as "any card that generates value over time". Selfeater is, of course, an engine.
 
Team Leviathan Gaming defines an engine as "any card that generates value over time". Selfeater is, of course, an engine.
Then by that definition BGF is also an engine and not a "spender". The fact that it needs coins (a mechanic specific to SY) doesn't make it any less of an engine.
 
Well, for me the difference resides in the action. To gain extra value with BGF you have to:
  1. Play BGF.
  2. Play a card which make you gain coins (which are not most of them).
  3. Spend the coins using this card. BUT this will mean that you are not going to have coins to use in other spenders. So giving this extra value is opposed to gain value with other cards.
  4. To counter BGF you can lock it or destroy it in any turn you want, because it's not a menace as long as there is no money.
On the other side, to gain extra value with SE requieres:
  1. Play SE.
  2. Split the SE and play a relic (same turn). You are going to gain the extra value besides other actions you want to play. AND you are playing SE in a deck full of relics. Maybe a year ago there weren't so much, but now you have plenty good options to full your deck with.
  3. To counter SE you have to lock it or destroy it the FIRST turn it's played (despite the needs of your strategy), because if you don't do it at that time it will continue gaining value.
Both are good cards, but SE it's clearly superior.
 
  1. To counter SE you have to lock it or destroy it the FIRST turn it's played (despite the needs of your strategy), because if you don't do it at that time it will continue gaining value.
Actually no. Before the nerf a 6 point SE if it was hit with a 5 point removal it couldn't split unless you played another relict and even then you got two 1 point bodies which were easily removed. And yet somehow that was still "op" and they nerfed it.

BGF if you have the coins it plays for way more points and even if you hit it with a 5 point removal you still have another turn in which to spend some more coins without comiting another spender.

Sooo again, what's the difference here? Why are BGF entitled to more power than SE when they serve the same purpose in their respective decks?
 
Actually no. Before the nerf a 6 point SE if it was hit with a 5 point removal it couldn't split unless you played another relict and even then you got two 1 point bodies which were easily removed. And yet somehow that was still "op" and they nerfed it.
I don't see how this invalidate my point. If you let SE on board, once he splits it will grow twice and each time you let it there that will repeat everytime you play a relict. AND, in your argument you are not counting that, besides the other player hay use a 5b point removel, SE still remained with you 1 p bodies who will be countinue growing each time you play a relict. That's way it got nerfed.

Now we have a 5p SE, but the conclusion is the same: if you don't cancel it the first turn, you will have two bodies who will grow with each relict played and if the player doens't do anything, there will be 3 or more.

Your second paragraph simply leave out the 3rd point I wrote of BGF. Yes, you can spend coins using that card, but that means you won't use those coins on other cards. So the utility of BGF relies not only on having coins, but also not having a better spender. By contrast, SE will continue growing when you play a relict, not only not affecting negativily your game (which is the case when you spent coins, because once you spent them you have no more), but also helping Sabbath.
 
I don't see how this invalidate my point. If you let SE on board, once he splits it will grow twice and each time you let it there that will repeat everytime you play a relict. AND, in your argument you are not counting that, besides the other player hay use a 5b point removel, SE still remained with you 1 p bodies who will be countinue growing each time you play a relict. That's way it got nerfed.

Now we have a 5p SE, but the conclusion is the same: if you don't cancel it the first turn, you will have two bodies who will grow with each relict played and if the player doens't do anything, there will be 3 or more.

Your second paragraph simply leave out the 3rd point I wrote of BGF. Yes, you can spend coins using that card, but that means you won't use those coins on other cards. So the utility of BGF relies not only on having coins, but also not having a better spender. By contrast, SE will continue growing when you play a relict, not only not affecting negativily your game (which is the case when you spent coins, because once you spent them you have no more), but also helping Sabbath.
I already explained all of that in previous posts. Check those.
 
Bloody Good Friends is not an engine.
It converts the coins into points but these coins/points come from other cards. It doesn't generate more than 1 point for 1 coin. Sure, it can help a Coin Engine (like Imke), Tunnel Drill or even a Bounty but the extra points always come from other cards. Basically, BGF just plays for 6 but as a non-restricted spender, it's flexible and useful. And the two tags help to not brick Novigradian Justice.

The extra points from Self Eater are not taken from the Relicts you play, they come from SE. The other Relicts play for their full value. So this one is an engine. It just needs protection now, but it still generates extra points (more than an army of BGF without coins could dream).

I don't have any opinion if BGF should be at 5 power. The 2 cards are very different.
 
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I already explained all of that in previous posts. Check those.
Edit: I read all the thread and, well, because you didn't convinced me and I continue to believe you are wrong is way I explained with arguments that counter yours.
 
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I don't know what is difficult to understand here. BFG is a spender, it converts coins. An example of an engine would be tax collector who gains coins, which you can later spend with BFG. I'm not really against making him 5 power, but he's hardly the real issue with SY. If anything deserves the nerf bat it would be the drill and cleaver.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
But you forget to say you have a lot of cheap cards that generate coins and needed to be spend, while in MO you dont have a lot of cheap bronzes relicts. Thats totaly different.

Sometimes you need to play good golds to make selfeater has good value, while with BGF you can only spend your cheap card crimes and use the coins generated with BGF.

Also, in other hand we have blightmaker, wich is an instant 11 points for 6 provision.

You know how much you need to get 12 points value with SE now?

turn 1 play SE - 5 points
turn 2 - 2 and 2 - play the relict - 3 and 3
turn 3 - 3 and 1 and 1 - play the relict - 4 and 2 and 2
turn 4 - 4 and 2 and 1 and 1 - play the relict - 5 and 3 and 2 and 2

So, after 4 turns your selfeater if its not been killed with a single 2 damage in turn 3 (or 4 damage in turn 2 or even 5 damage in turn 1) has one more potential than blightmaker.

Now thinks how much relicts do you have to do that?

2 Gan Caen
2 pigs
1 another SE
3 moiras
1 rat catcher
1 mamunna
1 blood mistres
1 SWH or caretaker or not (since a lot of players dont use this 2 last cards)

So you have more 11/12 cards to get SE value. But, of course, in round 1 you wont use mamunna and BM. Also, problably in this new patch you dont have SWK.
From moiras you probably whant to save the damage for others round, so you will only use 2 of them.

The bronze cores you probably wont use both SE in the same round, and, also, you probalby wont use the other 2 doubles to not bricks mamunna.

So you will have, in fact.

2 - piigs
1 - gaen cann
2 - moiras
1 - rat catchess

Only 6 cards (playable and not commit the game) to buff SE it in round 1.

If you have luck, you get those 6 cards, your SE dont get killed, and play this 6 cards and your SE will have a huge value. If you have a little less luck you will get 4 of them and your SE will get a good value, more than blightmaker after 5 turns. One more time, if it wont get killed/blocked.

And, of course, i need to remember you used 3 gold cards in process

If you are unlucky you will get 3 or less and your SE will have less value than blightmaker in 4 turns, while, i repeat, blightmaker its instant play.

Also, problably you used 1 gold card in process

So the nerf in mamunna and BM i think it was necessary. The nerf in SE was too much.
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Continuing. You know something funny? SE beeing at 6 points base power already needs 4 turns to have more value than blightmaker

turn 1 play SE - 6 points
turn 2 - 3 and 3 - play the relict - 4 and 4
turn 3 - 4 and 2 and 2 - play the relict - 5 and 3 and 3
turn 4 - 5 and 3 and 1 and 1 - play the relict - 6 and 4 and 2 and 2

In this case in the turn 4 it will have 14 points, wich is really good indeed. But i already show in the last post you need to play relicts and thats not that easy.

Lets get another cenário. - andregas's larva.
Turn 1 - play larva 2 and 2
turn 2 - plays anything - 3 and 3
turn 3 - plays anything - 4 and 4
turn 4 plays anything taller than 4 - 5 and 5

So only in turn 4 the new SE gets 2 points more than andrega.

Also, of course, if you continue playing relicts the SE will have much value than larva. In other hand, larva you dont need to play relicts, only tall units, wich here includes kikimore worker, wich is a tall unit with 4 provision, and also elder bear.

So, as i said in another post, only having more cheap relicts the nerf in SE will be ok, untill there she need to continue at 6 power
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i think blightmakers only will be ok if the token creates has only 1 base power. In that case i also can agree it can drops 1 provision
I will try this one last post and I am out from this discussion. Clearly no one is going to chance their opinion and this can go forever without both sides not agreeing to each others. It is fine though.

You saying 'but there are plenty of cards that generate coins" to say BGF is good. No one denies BGF is a good card. It is a good card and has synergy with Drill, one of the most broken cards in the game. But BGF doest grow bigger or gets more points on the virtue of himself. He can borrow points from other cards (you can't count smuggle as a 6 for 4 and say BGF plays +3 from smuggle.. it is plainly wrong) you can play units or crimes or leader to get coins and spend with BGF. He doesn't generate coins (like Taxcollector) nor does his get additional points on any conditions (like intimidate or Hoard or anything). He is plainly a 6 for 5 who is a very good spender.

SE on the other hand, grows himself to insane values just by playing other cards. All the while the other cards play for their full value. He doesn't borrow points from others.

Again your argument of it takes 4 turns for an engine to reach broken value: Al engines take turns to get more value. 4th turn SE can play for 14, and on 5th turn it can get to 20 and on 6th turn it can get 25 etc. All the while you are playing really strong and broken cards like Mamuna, Apprentice, BM, GanCean, Crones.

I have had games in which SE has played for 20+ points in one round. We can't pretend that SE was fine or relicts are weak. You are not playing junk/weak cards or adding filler cards to make SE good.

Next expansion will bring even more broken relicts and SE will have even more options. Next expansion will bring even more crimes or coins creator, but BGF would still have played for 6 points and borrow coins/points from other cards.

If you still think BGF and SE are same, then it is fine. But I am done trying to tell the same points over and over again.
 
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People like NG because it's a luck faction, people love bribery or getting a lucky mill on you. Most of the time they lose and do terribly, but for whatever reason, there are a lot of gamblers in Gwent.

Personally, I hate it, most NG decks are just dice rolls, very boring, but to each his own I guess. Kinda sad that most of the remaining players of Gwent are just the types who enjoy dice rolling, and the strategic players seem to be gone.
 
[...]
To say that "BGF uses coins to get value" is the same as saying "SE can only proc if you use Relicts so that limitation makes the card ok" and btw, that argument was used and it still got the card nerfed.
[...]
That argument is extremely flawed.
Playing a Relict is a condition, not a cost, Relicts are not weaker cards, just because they are Relicts.
On the other hand cards that generate coins are balanced around those coins being spent in roughly 1:1 way.
If you cannot spend the coins from something like Smuggle the card is a 3 for 4, however everyone would agree that it is a 6 for 4, for the obvious reason that you can spend its coins with a spender you should have available.
Coins are a form of points that have not yet been claimed, however they are still value, unlike a condition.
 
Because coins are a mechanic specific to SY i believe that you can call spenders engines (and the definition that somebody provided a few posts ago supports that).
My problem is, that when everyone was crying for SE to get nerfed i saw many arguments like "no engine should come to the board at 6 points".
Then i saw a few youtubers who supported that claim.
Well then, if the community doesn't want 6 points engines then let's make this engine a 5 point. What's fair is fair. You can't come with specific arguments when you wanna make a point but then as soon as that argument is turned around on you you go like "no no no that's a spender not an engine. No nerfs."
It is a bronze engine that comes to the board at 6 power. The community argued that's 'OP". Well dear community, you got your nerf for that "op" SE. Now let's apply that nerf to other cards.
Let's see how fun will this game be when everything is nerfed to your sweet, sweet 5 point removal range that you seem to love so much.

Or you're saying only MO has to be in that 5 point removal but the other factions shouldn't?
 


Update 9.3 introduces a lot of balance changes and adjustments across all factions. Other highlights of this patch include the Gascon leader model rework, and the return of Battle on Yaruga Bridge board and contracts. Read on the details of all changes below.
Changes
  • Gascon leader model visual rework
New Features
  • Reintroduction of Battle on Yaruga Bridge contracts, connected to Bridge on Yaruga Gameboard, that allows players to unlock more ornaments.
  • Gascon leader will be granting a new title, avatar and cardback that is unlockable by completing contracts connected to playing with him (That includes players that already own the leader).
Neutral
  • Arachas Venom: Provision cost changed from 7 to 5.
  • Elf and Onion Soup: Provision cost changed from 6 to 5.
  • Shupe's Day Off: Provision cost changed from 13 to 12.
  • Vigo's Muzzle: Provision cost changed from 12 to 11.
  • Dragon's Dream: Provision cost changed from 11 to 10.
  • Triss: Butterflies: Provision cost changed from 11 to 9.
  • Saesenthessis: Blaze: Provision cost changed from 11 to 10.
  • Ragh Nar Roog: Provision cost changed from 10 to 9.
  • Garrison: Provision cost changed from 10 to 9.
  • Primordial D'ao: Provision cost changed from 10 to 9.
  • Zoltan: Scoundrel: Provision cost changed from 10 to 8.
  • Colossal Ifrit: Power changed from 4 to 5.
  • Gaunter O'Dimm: Power changed from 5 to 6.
  • Vivienne: Oriole: Ability is no longer limited to units.
  • Manticore Venom: Provision cost changed from 9 to 8.
  • Trial of Grasses: Provision cost changed from 8 to 6.
  • Count Caldwell: Provision cost changed from 7 to 6.
  • Tempest: Provision cost changed from 6 to 5.
  • Ocvist: Power changed from 5 to 6.
  • Radeyah: Provision cost changed from 12 to 11.
Monsters
  • Ruehin: Provision cost changed from 11 to 10.
  • Desert Banshee: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4.
  • Caranthir Ar-Feiniel: Can now only copy Monster units with a provision cost of 10 or less.
  • Bloody Mistress: Provision cost changed from 10 to 11.
  • Kikimore Queen: Provision cost changed from 11 to 10. Power changed from 5 to 4. Armor changed from 2 to 3.
  • Plague Maiden: Provision cost changed from 12 to 10.
  • Werewolf: Power changed from 4 to 5.
  • Imlerith: Provision cost changed from 10 to 9. Power changed from 2 to 3.
  • Mammuna: Provision cost changed from 10 to 11.
  • Selfeater: Power changed from 6 to 5.
  • Kikimore Worker: Armor changed from 4 to 3.
Skellige
  • Udalryk an Brokvar: Now has the Warrior category.
  • An Craite Blacksmith: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4. Armor changed from 1 to 0.
  • Heymaey Spearmaiden: Power changed from 5 to 6.
  • Harald an Craite: Now damages self by 2 instead of the revived bronze warrior. Dev comment: This ability is more lore friendly for Harald and less likely to cause technical issues.
  • Crow Clan Preacher: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4.
  • Heymaey Skald: Ability is now locked to the Ranged row. Dev comment: Players can now play Skald in Melee row if they are worried that otherwise they would be forced to discard a good card.
  • Svanrige Tuirseach: Provision cost changed from 8 to 7.
  • Jutta an Dimun: Provision cost changed from 8 to 7.
Northern Realms
  • Coën: Provision cost changed from 7 to 6.
  • Odrin: Provision cost changed from 7 to 6.
  • Draug: Ability changed to: Zeal. Order: Transform all Human units on an allied row into Kaedweni Revenants without changing their power. Dev comment: Players will now be able to choose a row in which they want to transform their humans into Revenants.
  • Mad Kiyan: His Deathblow ability now resets his power.
  • Knighthood: Provision cost changed from 6 to 5.
  • Botchling: Provision cost changed from 8 to 7.
  • Kaedweni Revenant: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4.
  • Tissaia de Vries: Provision cost changed from 12 to 10.
Scoia'tael
  • Panther: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4.
  • Dryad Ranger: The damage from the Deploy ability changed from 1 to 2.
  • Ithlinne Aegli: Power changed from 5 to 6.
  • Sirssa: Provision cost changed from 8 to 7.
Nilfgaard
  • Ceallach Dyffryn: Provision cost changed from 7 to 6. Power changed from 5 to 6.
  • Menagerie Keeper: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4.
  • Vivienne de Tabris: Provision cost changed from 9 to 8.
Syndicate
  • Damnation: The target units no longer need to be adjacent.
  • Tinboy: Provision cost changed from 12 to 11.
  • Savolla's Frightener: Power changed from 11 to 12.
  • The Sausage Maker: Fee cost changed from 5 to 3.
  • Walter Veritas: Provision cost changed from 9 to 8.
  • Pugo Boom-Breaker: Power changed from 10 to 11.
  • Mutant Killer: Provision cost changed from 5 to 4. Power changed from 4 to 3.
Game Fixes
  • Huge half of card art will no longer display over the board sometimes.
  • Practice Makes Perfect and Ancient Foglet no longer trigger SFX when boosting by 0.
  • Brokvar Hunter and Elven Swordmaster now react correctly to units played from the opponent's graveyard.
  • Bridge Troll can now be target of its own Deathwish effect when triggered by Urn of Shadows.
  • Cat Witcher Mentor now correctly counts face-down cards when played.
  • Corrected the Berserk tooltip, which mentioned base power instead of power.
  • Viy and Dettlaff: Higher Vampire's Deathwish effects no longer ignore the Doomed status.
  • Dol Dhu Lokke's Order ability no longer ignores units with Immunity.
  • Thanedd Turncoat's cooldown now reacts correctly to more than 1 instance of Spying being applied at a time.
  • Rico Meiersdorf can no longer drop to 0 power when the enemy unit is killed on Deploy.
  • Ignatius Hale's Tribute cost will now update correctly in the tooltip.
  • Confession Extractor: Now has VFX indicating the source of the damage from the graveyard.
  • Selfeater now sets its base power rather than damaging it when using its Order ability.
  • Isengrim's Council will no longer terminate the match in a draw if there are no valid cards in the deck to choose from.
  • Practice Makes Perfect's tooltip now correctly reflects that the target allied bronze mage must be shuffled into the deck before being able to play a random bronze mage from the deck.
  • Artaud Terranova's tooltip now reflects that the Spawned unit is a base copy of the target.
  • Udalryk an Brokvar's tooltip now reflects that Zeal can only be gained on Deploy.
  • Adjusted the tooltips for both Bloody Mistress and Gernichora to reflect that they both keep their power upon transforming, to match the changes from the 9.206 hotfix.
Fix the matchmaking system, it blows my mind how one day everything goes so well and then the next days game just doesn't allow you to win, it's almost like "hey, you had your great time, let enjoy other players of few win against you"
In the beginning I've created my own deck, it was weak so I've played I've played and improve my deck to win, then game started to put me against players who was impossible to beat, so I've found meta deck and went from rank 11 to rank 7 with just 2 loses, so nooow game doesn't give my cards to make my combos, mulligans gives me same cards every match over and over and over again, every match I get or one or another but not the right cards. Impossible to win with the same deck with which I went from rank 11 to 7 in about 1h+. Please stop this broken chance system, I feel that it's not what you are working for by trying to improve this game.
Thank you for your attention
 
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