2 cents on CDPR balancing these days... (FEEDBACK essay)

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ya1

Forum regular
I don't think there are many people who would manage to keep their face straight and say, "Gwent balancing is great." Despite really creative solutions when it comes to the synergy, fluidity and diversity of interactions within this very simple game system, the game is plagued by one gigantic problem: a handful of decks and card packages totally dominate over everything else and dictate how the game is played, effectively preventing the majority of content from seeing any competitive play at all. In my opinion, this is because the Gwent team prioritizes and embraces the wrong aspects of balancing.

First, the main focus of the balancing process is single cards and single decks, and how powerfully those cards interact within those decks. The big picture, however - the global perspective of how those decks interact with one another - seems to be lost to the decision makers. An example of this can be the Oneiromancy nerf. The reasoning is solid from the narrow perspective: every devotionless deck uses it therefore it's too strong, and must be nerfed. In this narrow perspective, it's absolutely true. But let's look at the global perspective. At least 2 (and debatably even 4) strongest decks achieving total ladder domination are devotion decks. So the Oneiromancy nerf only widens the gap between those decks and their weaker devotionless competition. From the global perspective, this is a major balancing error: buffing the stronger and nerfing the weaker. Ethereal was also a victim of this way of thinking. The card was destroyed because the idea of a 3/turn engine (with leader, though...) on this level of consistency still sounded too strong. But only in the the vacuum, in the narrow balancing perspective. In the global perspective, after the Caranthir change, Ethereal decks were not even top 4/5. There are many such examples.

Another problem is that the Gwent team embraces (/worships) the wrong principles of game design: symmetry and aesthetics of design. They aren't "wrong" per se. In fact, they are very important (here's a ted talk about it by Mark Rosewater from MTG
). However, when those principles take priority over the balance between factions - in a game whose sole focus is those factions competing with one another - they are VERY WRONG. Here is an example. Every faction has a tutor of faction specials. So according to the principle of symmetry, it might be aesthetically displeasing (or whatever...) if SK continued not to have a tutor for their Raids. And the fact that SK warriors had been dominating silly (and a big part it being the echo raid Blood Eagle) had been completely lost to the balancing team. So, in the first patch after the expansion (and one of the most ridiculous periods of skomegalul) the strongest by far card package got the biggest buff by the best card addition (Vabjorn). Other examples are aplenty: evolvers who play other units must be 5 power - symmetrically across the whole game - despite the Shieldwall-broken Viraxis being by far one of the two the strongest evolvers (with Harald), and Auberon is not even close (and Eithne not seeing play even in symbiosis decks lol but still getting the provision nerf unlike Viraxis).

There are other things that are also very perplexing. For example, why did the broken-strongest factions - SK and NR - get the very best, most synergistic leaders (shielded duel/engine, GS with rain), and even card changes boosting already broken packages (GS with Hjalmar)? While the already weak before the patch NG in addition to silly nerfs got anti-synergistic crap like Imprisonment which damages units you wanna seize or destroy, or Tactical which is a-okay but only synergizes with a niche package of hyperthin. I really want to believe those aren't just random seasonal moves to keep meta from getting stale, and there is an actual philosophy behind it. If there is one, whatever it is, it is imo very very wrong. You just don't buff the strongest and nerf the weakest. Thanks for reading.
 
Another problem is that the Gwent team embraces (/worships) the wrong principles of game design: symmetry and aesthetics of design.

I would like to point out that this wasn't always the case. In closed beta, every faction had their unique strengths and weaknesses and not every faction had access to every tactic or counter. Ironically, things might have been even more unbalanced back then. But, at least, it felt more fresh and exciting. Over the years, the factions have become homogenized and, because of this, they feel less unique.

The issue doesn't just lie in balancing but also in the expansions. You see, every new expansion brings new mechanics to the game. These mechanics are not faction exclusive. Instead, every faction gets their own version (e.g. Defenders, Scenarios). This means that the unique roots of each faction gets more and more diminished with every new generic mechanic build upon it.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Balancing can never be achieved when some factions' bronze cards compete with other factions' gold cards. SK plays every single freaking card for more value than the rest of the factions. In R3 (and by the way, R3 can never be avoided against SK when they have such strong freaking bronze cards and gold cards), Every 4P card plays for 7 points (or 6 points with 3 damage), every 5P card plays for 8 points (with War of Clans with 5 damage), every 6P card plays for 10 points. An 8 provision card does 5 damage and puts 5 points on board (I am still baffled this bloody card is not 9P yet. Think about it, in R2 itself at 8P it is as strong as other factions 9P do-4-damage cards).

And this is irrespective of which leader your play! SK may see Patricidial Fury, Blaze of Glory, or even Rage of Sea, but all three will have the same cards :shrug:

The only way this kind of BS can be handled is with NR whose engines-after-engines and duels-after-duels. Other factions don't stand a chance unless they take a clownish meme approach hard countering these factions. Every other factions' 5P and 4P and even 6P cards should get a bloody buff to have any kind of balancing. Otherwise, we will see 1 deck per faction (with SK, played by different leader, but the deck is the same) and be very proud of "the meta is great now as we can see all factions being played". What about the rest of the 35+ leaders?
 
And this is irrespective of which leader your play! SK may see Patricidial Fury, Blaze of Glory, or even Rage of Sea, but all three will have the same cards :shrug:
A thought that just hit me earlier was when Burza tweeted out "Shieldwall only has the 4th most wins so it's fine", what if the three leaders performing better were these? It's really the only thing that makes sense but man would it be depressing.
 
This discussion has been made many times now. The problem, as many people said before me, is not only balance but faction identity. If i choose, for example, to play MO i expect to play in a certain "special" way and not find the same 2 power tutor which makes no sense. ( frankly, seeing a 2 power Imlerith is embarassing as that number should be his power ).
When every faction as the same kind of cards you just simple choose the one with the most powerful cards overall and play that and that's what's happening now. Decks are basically of two types now: dumb pointslam or unnerving control ( especially NR which can control the board better than NG now ). Game has became static, with very little interactions.
I also can not understand the SK hate either, as NR, ST and MO can shit on it very easily or trade very fairly with it; but let's nerf SK to oblivion, like it happened with NG ( ball is the last of its problems ).
 
I don't think there are many people who would manage to keep their face straight and say, "Gwent balancing is great." Despite really creative solutions when it comes to the synergy, fluidity and diversity of interactions within this very simple game system, the game is plagued by one gigantic problem: a handful of decks and card packages totally dominate over everything else and dictate how the game is played, effectively preventing the majority of content from seeing any competitive play at all. In my opinion, this is because the Gwent team prioritizes and embraces the wrong aspects of balancing.

First, the main focus of the balancing process is single cards and single decks, and how powerfully those cards interact within those decks. The big picture, however - the global perspective of how those decks interact with one another - seems to be lost to the decision makers. An example of this can be the Oneiromancy nerf. The reasoning is solid from the narrow perspective: every devotionless deck uses it therefore it's too strong, and must be nerfed. In this narrow perspective, it's absolutely true. But let's look at the global perspective. At least 2 (and debatably even 4) strongest decks achieving total ladder domination are devotion decks. So the Oneiromancy nerf only widens the gap between those decks and their weaker devotionless competition. From the global perspective, this is a major balancing error: buffing the stronger and nerfing the weaker. Ethereal was also a victim of this way of thinking. The card was destroyed because the idea of a 3/turn engine (with leader, though...) on this level of consistency still sounded too strong. But only in the the vacuum, in the narrow balancing perspective. In the global perspective, after the Caranthir change, Ethereal decks were not even top 4/5. There are many such examples.

Another problem is that the Gwent team embraces (/worships) the wrong principles of game design: symmetry and aesthetics of design. They aren't "wrong" per se. In fact, they are very important (here's a ted talk about it by Mark Rosewater from MTG
). However, when those principles take priority over the balance between factions - in a game whose sole focus is those factions competing with one another - they are VERY WRONG. Here is an example. Every faction has a tutor of faction specials. So according to the principle of symmetry, it might be aesthetically displeasing (or whatever...) if SK continued not to have a tutor for their Raids. And the fact that SK warriors had been dominating silly (and a big part it being the echo raid Blood Eagle) had been completely lost to the balancing team. So, in the first patch after the expansion (and one of the most ridiculous periods of skomegalul) the strongest by far card package got the biggest buff by the best card addition (Vabjorn). Other examples are aplenty: evolvers who play other units must be 5 power - symmetrically across the whole game - despite the Shieldwall-broken Viraxis being by far one of the two the strongest evolvers (with Harald), and Auberon is not even close (and Eithne not seeing play even in symbiosis decks lol but still getting the provision nerf unlike Viraxis).

There are other things that are also very perplexing. For example, why did the broken-strongest factions - SK and NR - get the very best, most synergistic leaders (shielded duel/engine, GS with rain), and even card changes boosting already broken packages (GS with Hjalmar)? While the already weak before the patch NG in addition to silly nerfs got anti-synergistic crap like Imprisonment which damages units you wanna seize or destroy, or Tactical which is a-okay but only synergizes with a niche package of hyperthin. I really want to believe those aren't just random seasonal moves to keep meta from getting stale, and there is an actual philosophy behind it. If there is one, whatever it is, it is imo very very wrong. You just don't buff the strongest and nerf the weakest. Thanks for reading.

I really really wish CDPR would hire you to do the balance changes as you seem to understand the game much better than them.
 
I think you hit the nail on the head. Gwent balancing has been pretty bad for a while now and the game has grown quite stale. The symmetry idea is pretty prevalent and doesn't really make sense. I'd like to see some faction identity, not the same card with slightly different effects - Payday, stunning blow, nature's rebuke, etc. - these are all making the factions feel symmetrical, which isn't really the point, is it? On top of this, these cards - which do about 5 damage we can say - make previously played archetypes and fun cards (Damien and Skellen come to mind) unplayable.

Honestly, in terms of flavor, I feel like Skellige is mostly okay. Warriors is an archetype, but it so powerful, as stated above, because of the fact that bronzes are not balanced in Gwent. Skellige just has the best ones point for point. Scoia'tael, Nilfgaard, Monsters, and even NR to some degree fall pretty short compared to Skellige's raw points and limited-risk bronze cards. It doesn't feel good to know you're playing from a disadvantage by not playing Skellige. Does this mean you can't beat Skellige? Absolutely not, you definitely can, but the fact is, it is far from balanced. This creates the feeling of playing an unfair game.

Balancing all the bronzes in the game is quite a task though, so let's look at a simpler example. Nilfgaard is pretty much trash right now, right? Other than maybe lockdown, which isn't the most fun or interactive deck, I have had basically no luck with any deck other than maybe masquerade ball. Even then, when I queue into Nilfgaard, I feel pretty confident that I can still win regardless of ball due to the weak bronzes that Nilfgaard has to choose from. So what does CDPR do? Nerf Ball? The only card keeping Nilfgaard afloat? I just can't understand this, especially that the buffs given to compensate amount to unplayable cards being modified to... still unplayable cards. I'm not sure that CDPR plays the game, because those buffs were just weird.
 
@ya1_ I found myself writing a long response and decided to delete it. The simple truth is I need more information from you before I can properly respond.

1. Can you please give a more comprehensive definition of balance? Is a game balanced when win rates are even, play rates are even, or by some other criteria?

2. How big a point swing is acceptable? I gather you don’t like single cards that change the dynamics of the game (Wild boar of the sea, Harold Gord, Cahir, ect...) With that in mind can you speak to cards you do find acceptable?

3. Do you object to archetype synergy as well? You have said you don’t like decks that cards get built around, what about leaders that they get built around?

I need more information about what you want Gwent to look like or at least what balance means to you. Without that it is very hard to make an appropriate response.
 
There is something to work on with Gwent balancing. Unfortunately, for now, I can't spend time in the game because of applying to pharmacy school.
 
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