2 inherent flaws of 99.99% cyberpunk pnp rpg is...

[Arcafonk]

2 inherent flaws of 99.99% cyberpunk pnp rpg is...

1/ slow character generation, coupled with a gun combat system.
2/ matrix rules

I know only a single cyberpunk genre game that have not those problems, it's a french game called Nanochrome (french link).

1/
The problem with 1/ is a deadly combat system can't be supported with a slow character generation. Slow character generation is inherent of the cyberpunk genre, mainly because of the equipement phase. Your uneducated player would browse an item catalog filled by hundred of options and will have a very hard time choosing what he wants.
You could turn around this by using "items packs" or "augmentation packs". Those packs would have been designed for newbies and archetypes.

2/
Matrix rules are always stupidly complicated for nothing. Most of players are not caring the how and details, they care the result. Understanding that you need to load this program on your deamon before going to attack that piece of ICE is overcomplicated stuff, meaning that the Netrunner will take 20 minutes out of the game with the GM, while the other players starts to chat about that last movie they saw yesterday. This is also two separates ruling systems, meaning it's very hard for the gm to modulate between the two worlds.
It's a big problem and I have no real solution but to oversimplify that part, meaning a lot of old fans would get angry...

I think there could be "Very fast matrix rules" and detailed oldschool rules. If Pondsmith want to use old CP rules, that ok, but at least I hope they have a set of (very very) quick rules to simulate the matrix).
Ex: each software have a quick attack / defense index, and they use this index summing all the attack gear together for exemple to make generic rolls. That gear also have standard, detailed effect. You could use one ruleset, or the other.

In 2015, you need a "30 minutes to start a game" way of entering the game. Anything that make the story more important than dices is a good thing to make people play CP again

 

[blank_redge]

I think "slow character generation" is a moot point. Most people familiar with pnp RPGs usually set aside time specifically for character creation, prior to playing. With my current group of players, I built in a buffer of about two weeks to answer any questions during character creation, before we ever sat down for our first session.

I agree that Netrunning rules could be more streamlined, though.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeaahhh. Char creation being slow is not a flaw. The Lifepath is beloved of the hardcore.

If you -are- in a hurry, you can do it really quickly - skip lifepath, take the Package skills, distribute points as wanted. Roll your money, buy your gear, don't take Sell Your Soul. Twenty minutes or less, done. DId it recently with someone. Crazy quick, since as a Cop, he had starting gear assigned.

 

[Rawls]

Most people familiar with pnp RPGs usually set aside time specifically for character creation, prior to playing. With my current group of players, I built in a buffer of about two weeks to answer any questions during character creation, before we ever sat down for our first session.

This. Every RPG group I've ever been a part of normally allowed for character creation process that lasted for at least several days to a week before the first true session ever began.

 

[Arcafonk]

Yeaahhh. Char creation being slow is not a flaw. The Lifepath is beloved of the hardcore.

If you -are- in a hurry, you can do it really quickly - skip lifepath, take the Package skills, distribute points as wanted. Roll your money, buy your gear, don't take Sell Your Soul. Twenty minutes or less, done. DId it recently with someone. Crazy quick, since as a Cop, he had starting gear assigned.

I don't think that the "buy your gear" part take under 1 hour with a newbie wanting to play a Netrunner or a Solo, which are two emblematic roles of any cyberpunk game.
In my case, I created a char in 1995 and I remember that Netrunner char lasting 4-5h. Then I replayed that game in 2002, and that Fixer have been made under 1h30.
So the consequence of this is the gms protecting their players. Meaning the players can do whatever they want in a gun environnement with a gardian angel.

It's not that I like to kill players, but if they fuck it up, they fuck it up. I'd rather them to be back in the game with another character in next 20 minutes.

"My" flagship gming game was Agone (which I played not so far of The Witcher universe btw, but it's a little higher fantasy), that game suffers from inherent flaw that are very close to Shadowrun or CP. Too many character options in char creation means you can't kill your players or you'll have another 1 or 2h of char creation (I technically can create a character under 20 minutes in Agone, because I know exactly what I'm seeking in books - with normal newbie players that is 2h no less, 3h for mages).

Too many character options is slowing down games a lot. "Well I have gun p192 of the 2076 automn-winter catalog, modded with this option p394 in the corebook, shooting on that guy with that armor, p107 of the 2077 corp book, with ammo p. err I can't remember of that police book", do you really think it's easy and quick to gm ?

Character option is nice but, to me, it's slowing down the flow of your games. Who cares that option on this or that gun, who cares the color of your jacket in the night when you want to tell stories, having a quick combat here and there, with a matrix hacking sometimes. That level of detail is messing with the flow of the game.

Cyberpunk games is suffering from the Rolemaster syndrome, guys.

If I were to gm CP, I'd play it with another system, like Nanochrome like I said, or something homebrew.

This. Every RPG group I've ever been a part of normally allowed for character creation process that lasted for at least several days to a week before the first true session ever began.

I'm not sure but I think there's not too much dead players and real danger in your games. Pretty like poker with matches to me.

There IS games that allows lots of char options, quick char creations, deadly combat system, easy rules and epic stories. L5R for exemple, to me, is acheiving the perfect mecanic balance (it's not about the universe, it's about gamedesign and mecanics). Why it's faster ? Because the game is less dependent on the gear part.

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

Well I have to admit that I really love to roll characters, but as much as I love it I prefer to do it days before the first session begins so I have more time to polish some aspects of the character both in terms mechanics and personality.

I encourage other gamers to do the same, but in my case I always stumble with one or two lazy players that inevitably show at the gaming table with "homework" undone. I find quite annoying to be waiting a long time for others to roll their characters. We are trying to subvert that tendency in our gaming group with mixed results... (always the same two players )

So the consequence of this is the gms protecting their players. Meaning the players can do whatever they want in a gun environnement with a gardian angel.

It's not that I like to kill players, but if they fuck it up, they fuck it up. I'd rather them to be back in the game with another character in next 20 minutes.

Totally agree, the only solution I see in Cyberpunk 2020 is rolling two characters in advance before the game starts, and as the campaign progresses always have another character rolled in store.



As for the Netrunning rules, yes, I found it unnecessary complex and cumbersome. A must fix for any future edition, not to mention the issues regarding the group split while the runner do his/her show and the disparity with actual technology.


Since I haven't said it in a while: hey Max Mike and CD Projekt Red, I want a Cyberpunk 2077 tabletop rpg edition!

 

[TheCybersmily]

You want quick generation for CP characters? Use Fast & Dirty Expendables.
I agree creation of a NetRunner is a bit more time, but they are similar to spellcaster classes in other systems. How many choices of spells do they get?
Honestly, it would take me ~30 minutes to create a CP2020 character. Granted I have been playing the game for awhile. But as a Ref, you tell your players they have a set amount of time for character creation and then you are starting the game. My struggle with character creation is the concept, especially in other RPGs. CP 2020 actually makes it easier for me with lifepaths.

As to your second point, the matrix in all systems do make it more complicated than it needs to be. But as a ref, come up with a more streamline system. Most games state in their introductions, use as many of the rules as you want or none of them.

 

[Suhiira]

Same here. You set aside some time before, or between sessions for character generation.
And if your games character mortality rate is such that you need a new character every few sessions then either the players, or the GM, or both have problems. Play Paranoia!

 

[Arcafonk]

Since I haven't said it in a while: hey Max Mike and CD Projekt Red, I want a Cyberpunk 2077 tabletop rpg edition!

In case you did not know, and this is part of that thread intention, it is planned (see Mike's ITW, but I can't find the link).
The two characters solution is a nice solution, I never though of that.

And about the "same players", it's really the same in every simple group I ever played (and I played in say 15-20 different groups).
Some players are jsut here to hear good jokes and eat candy bars. It's not a problem if at least they can throw a dice some time to time.
I always try at least to make them having a key moment in all the games I do, sometimes with good results, sometimes with catastrophic failures

Same here. You set aside some time before, or between sessions for character generation.
And if your games character mortality rate is such that you need a new character every few sessions then either the players, or the GM, or both have problems. Play Paranoia!

I know you were talking about the Paranoïa game but Call of Cthulhu players have something called paranoïa that lacks in CP, I think.

Gibson's novels are full of paranoïa (K Dick too). To me, dystopian future is not a safe haven. It's dangerously violent, not epicly violent. There's a difference. In one situation you have a lazy gm that is caring the players, in the other you have a computer mind gm. Computer mind gming is more frigthening the player, and it can be used to great effects.

 

[jacqsynn]

I have always had players with more then 1 PC, as I tell them death happens in CP2020, and as for a 2077 CP table top rpg, Chrome 5 is all that is planned as far as I know and that just don't make it CP2077. It will give some new tech and you can play in 2077 but the base rules will be the same.

 

[blank_redge]

Totally agree, the only solution I see in Cyberpunk 2020 is rolling two characters in advance before the game starts, and as the campaign progresses always have another character rolled in store.

Funny thing, that: our very first session out, because of our prior tabletop games (World of Darkness setting, Pathfinder,) my players went in with some sense of invulnerability.

Fast forward to the first instance of conflict (against a Militech squad), and two player characters got flatlined, with a third barely escaping.

Once my players realized, "Oh, crap; we're NOT invulnerable!" they, of their own volition, rolled up multiple characters. Which has been GREAT for me, because I have a broad number of characters to choose from to put into play every session, instead of trying to figure out how to shoehorn the *same* characters into sessions, whose motivations and goals may or may not dovetail, week after week.

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

Yeah, as far as I know there are some books in the works, but I can't have them soon enough.

---------- Updated at 10:05 AM ----------

Which has been GREAT for me, because I have a broad number of characters to choose from to put into play every session, instead of trying to figure out how to shoehorn the *same* characters into sessions, whose motivations and goals may or may not dovetail, week after week.

Yeah, sometimes is very hard for a GM to insert properly a character in an adventure, scenario or plot.

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah, sometimes is very hard for a GM to insert properly a character in an adventure, scenario or plot.

I solved that rather neatly one campaign.

Started them all out new to town, flat broke, and living in the same flop house.
Only natural for them to turn to the other folks they were living with for assistance/support since none of them even knew anyone else (except a few NPCs by reputation).