2 things I wish were fixed - Dijkstra and Saskia (spoilers)

[Gerald01]

@swordsandroses What if Saskia is dead?

Roche and Ves alive is 100% of the endings of TW2

Your proposition, while not being unreasonable, entails 2 completely different implementations.
While Roche's still works regardless of choices in the previous game.

EDIT: It would seem Saskia being alive is only 25% of the possible main paths in TW2, not even 50%

Iorverth's path =/= Saskia being alive at the start of TW3.

So you'd need at least 3 different implementations:

1) Roche's path (game as is)
2) Iorveth's path with Saskia playing a role
3) Iorveth's path with no Saskia

and what about the fate of Prince Stannis? I guess he could be canonised dead/not mentioned either way.


So in light of this, what could have worked is:

1) Roche+Ves
2) Iorveth (not Saskia) with optional Saskia appearance+quest if choices allow it.
If not, some other npc with alternative quest, or none at all.

 

[Goodmongo]

Well, she's a minor character in the same way Ves or Roche is a minor character. She plays a rather huge role in the Iorveth arc and many people were invested in the Aedirn story.

Given how important Aedirn was in the Second Nilfgaard War as well as the atrocities there, many people thought we'd at least get it referenced.

The key words in your comment are "Aedirn story". Ves and Roche are Temeria's story and TW3 covers this as the map includes Temeria. TW3 is not about Aedirn. And TW3 isn't even about Nilfgaard as a whole. Aedirn was mentioned and covered by the one line that said there was little or no opposition.

 

[Toyen]

@swordsandroses What is Saskia is dead?

Simple, if she´s dead she just doesn´t appear and you only help Iorveth. Or she appears anyway, like Thaler.

But I don´t think that there are that many people who took Iorveths path that killed Saskia.

---------- Updated at 02:22 PM ----------

Thats true Goodmongo but characters like Zoltan for example, who was in Vergen at the end of W2 suddenly appears in Novigrad just like that so why can´t Iorveth and Saskia appear as well outside Aedirn?

 

[Goodmongo]

@swordsandroses What if Saskia is dead?

Roche and Ves alive is 100% of the endings of TW2

Your proposition, while not being unreasonable, entails 2 completely different implementations.
While Roche's still works regardless of choices in the previous game.

I know this will cause lot's of issues but the default status of her would have to be that she is dead. Let me explain. In TW2 you can kill her or spare her. And if you picked Iorveth path you can cure her. It's been stated that the default path is Roche's and not Iorveth so that means she was killed or spared.

Now I know CDPR can give magical resurrection potions out like they did for Thaler. But if you killed her logic says she must be dead. Just like Henselt. So that means the default would be for her to have either been killed by you or died some other way. CDPR would just be unclear as to the exact way she died.

---------- Updated at 02:26 PM ----------

Thats true Goodmongo but characters like Zoltan for example, who was in Vergen at the end of W2 suddenly appears in Novigrad just like that so why can´t Iorveth and Saskia appear as well outside Aedirn?

Because Zoltan was moving around all over the world before W2 while Saskia and Iorveth were always centered in their previous territory. Zoltan also has a reason and excuse. He was following Dandelion. What possible reason or excuse would Iorveth and Saskia have for leaving their territory and coming to a place where the war is raging and they would be hunted down by both sides? It's illogical for them to come but very logical for Zoltan.

No one has given one logical reason why Iorveth and Saskia come to Temeria and even the comment that Emhyr cuts a deal with Saskia is not logical. Why cut a deal with a foe that you can brush aside so easily? It just doesn't happen. Aedirn was a very minor sideshow and easy conquest so no Emhyr would never cut a deal.

 

[Gerald01]

@Goodmongo

Good points.

I agree that in case of possible dead characters, the easy/simple/lazy way is to always have them dead or unmentioned no matter what.
Surely beats magic resurrection completely disregarding player choice.

Because Zoltan was moving around all over the world before W2 while Saskia and Iorveth were always centered in their previous territory. Zoltan also has a reason and excuse. He was following Dandelion. Why possible reason or excuse would Iorveth and Saskia have for leaving their territory and coming to a place where the war is raging and they would be hunted down by both sides? It's illogical for them to come but very logical for Zoltan.

Yes Zoltan makes much more sense than Saskia, due to geographical reasons, character, etc.
Having Saskia+Iorveth just literally replace Roche and his camp inthe exact same spot in the alternate path would add insult to injury. Same as them partecipating in the politics in a very similar manner.

---------- Updated at 02:35 PM ----------

Simple, if she´s dead she just doesn´t appear and you only help Iorveth. Or she appears anyway, like Thaler.

But I don´t think that there are that many people who took Iorveths path that killed Saskia.

Ok but then they're not just 2 versions. It's one the same for all players no matter what, working logicallyindependently of any choice in the previous game (Roche+Ves) versus 2 others, reflecting only 50% player choice or even only 25% player choice.

They could have done it sure, it'd been great, but it's not like it was just twice as hard or just as sensible as the Roche vanilla choice, both from a story and development cost vs usefulness ratio. Not proportional.

The alternative, of Saskia+Iorveth being the defaul vanilla choice, would have made no sense at all on the other hand.
You barely know who these people are if you choose Roche's path. Plus one is 100% dead.

So that's that.

 

[Toyen]

Well maybe they were driven away from Aedirn after all and are now making their way through Velen to Kovir where life still isn´t that bad.

There are countless options why they could be in Velen. And I can definitely see Saskia wanting revenge on Radovid after he did not want to recognize Pontar Valley as a free state at the summit and now started hunting non humans.

 

[Goodmongo]

Let me add this. I would like for CDPR to do it right and take the time and energy to program a correct sequence to see them. Sort of like how they handled Letho. But they would also need to come up with a logical reason for this to happen. Maybe they came to Temeria to seek out Geralt for help. maybe they were coming to offer magic uses an opportunity to hide with them. Maybe they are seeking refuge at Kaer Morhen and are trying to find Geralt to get approval.

Then of course they would need to redo parts of Phillipa's dialogue on Saskia and if you cured Saskia or if she broke it another way. And of course the starting questions in Vizima will need to be modified to account for all of this.

But as @Gerald01 has stated to just replace them in the Roche/Ves cave is not the way to handle this.

 

[moonknightgog]

Disclaimer - I consider TW3 astonishing achievement and my favourite game of all time. It is in fact so good, that these imperfections stand out a bit more because of that.

1. Dijkstra - he is one of the best characters in the books AND in TW3. CDP writers absolutely nailed him in every way, as did the voice actor.
Which only makes his last 5 minutes on the scene even more heartbreaking - not because it is sad, but simply because it was completely out of character. Him going after Geralt was completely illogical and bizzare. I think everyone can agree on that.
Even still - if it would require too much work to rework that part of the game, I at least wish we could dispatch him without slaying him like a common bandit. For example if it was possible to Axii him and then knock him unconscious, I would be a lot happier with that. Although of course ideally his "last scene" would be rewritten to make more sense.
Is there any possibility to see this happen?

Uhm...I would agree with you some weeks later, but now...I'm not so convinced.

'Are you still writing?'Ori Reuven flinched and made a splash. He had served Dijkstra for nineteen years, but he was still not used to the stealthy movements of his boss, his sudden appearance and where or how he did it.
'Good evening, ahem, ahem, my lord...'
'Shadow People,' Dijkstra read the front of the manuscript that he had taken from the table. 'Or the story of His Majesty's Secret Service, written by Oribasius Giafranco Paolo Reuven, law grad... Oh, Ori. At your age, such nonsense...'
'Ahem, ahem...'
'I came to say goodbye, Ori.'
Reuven looked at him in amazement.
'You see, my faithful friend,' said the spy, without waiting for the clerk to cough, 'I am old, and besides that, I am stupid. I said a word to one person. Only one. And only one word. It was one word too many, and one person too many. Pay attention, Ori. Do you hear?'
Ori Reuven rolled his astonished eyes and shook his head. Dijkstra was silent for a moment.
'You do not hear,' he said after a moment. 'And I hear them. In the corridors. Rats running around the city of Tretogor. Here we have them. Approaching on their soft little paws.'

Is not out of character. Dijkstra love to talk.
And...well, Geralt is not a superhuman. Just one skilled man is enough to kill him.

And Dijkstra bring with him 12 people...against 4, is theoretically enough.


But I think...that choice could have been handled better if is Roche to ask Geralt to kill Dijkstra.

 

[Gerald01]

@Goodmongo
And also how would Temeria fit into this?
If Roche is not there what happens?
Is it removed completely as an ending (Epilogue with EMpress ending had to be retouched upon too) or what?

 

[Goodmongo]

@Goodmongo
And also how would Temeria fit into this?
If Roche is not there what happens?
Is it removed completely as an ending (Epilogue with EMpress ending had to be retouched upon too) or what?

Yes, great point. No matter what they have to have Roche in the game. You can't swap Iorveth out for Roche. To include Iorveth means a whole different spot and would have to be handled like Letho.

EDIT: As long as everyone is listing their wishes for CDPR to make here is mine.

1) Kill Radovid as normal.
2) In meeting afterwards convince Roche/Thaler that Dijkstra is right in that they should not make a deal with Emhyr.
3) Let Dijkstra win the war but force Dijkstra to accept an independent Temeria that eventually might be lead by Annais.

This allows Nilfgaard to lose, Dijkstra to start a good rebuilding plan and eventually a free and independent Temeria to satisfy Roche/Thaler. It's a win-win-win scenario.

 

[Gerald01]

@Goodmongo

Yes, the politics ending didn't need to be that bloody. It could've been handled like Keira's, where through conversation, only obviously more elaborate and requiring more effort.

But what about choosing Roche over Dikkstra? Would the peaceful route work?

 

[Willowhugger]

@Goodmongo

Yes, the politics ending didn't need to be that bloody. It could've been handled like Keira's, where through conversation, only obviously more elaborate and requiring more effort.

But what about choosing Roche over Dikkstra? Would the peaceful route work?

I suggested over in the Politics thread there could be two additional dialogue trees.

1. Threatening both sides: Geralt says that he will kill either Roche or Dijkstra both if either side tries to hurt the other and depending on his next couple of lines, or past actions both sides may back down.

2. Let's talk about this: Geralt forces the issue to actually discuss why Dijkstra is betraying them and the two sides part on uneasy terms. It would be very hard to succeed. I'd want Ves to argue here because her being silent during all this is ridiculous.

This would lead to a new slide in place of Temeria Prospers and Dijkstra wins:

"The Truce" Ending

Forced to abide by their truce, Dijkstra and Roche successfully negotiate an end to the Third Nilfgaard Invasion. Aedirn and Lyria are conquered by the Nilfgaardian Empire while Temeria becomes a province with all of their laws as well as culture intact. Redania, by contrast, solidifies its control over Kaedwin and proceeds to join into an alliance with all surviving nations of the North with Dijkstra as it's Ruling Council's Chancellor. Peace is restored to the North but it is an uneasy one. Neither the Nilfgaard citizenry nor the people of the North are entirely happy with the end to the war. Which is, as Geralt would say, how you knew it was an actual peace.

 

[OutgoingHermit]

I'd have liked an option as simple as telling Dijkstra to make like a tree and get the fuck out of here instead of just cutting him in half. And then turning to Roche and Thaler and letting them know they are a couple of nincompoops, and they ought to get out of the city while they can.

And letting the chips fall as they may.

 

[carlos2033]

Maybe Iorveth and Saskia don`t have place in Temeria, but solution is quite simple Iorveth could appear riding a dragon to help us defend Kaer Morhen

 

[Willowhugger]

I'd have liked an option as simple as telling Dijkstra to make like a tree and get the fuck out of here instead of just cutting him in half. And then turning to Roche and Thaler and letting them know they are a couple of nincompoops, and they ought to get out of the city while they can.

And letting the chips fall as they may.

Geralt really needed to do the "Time of Contempt" speech.

"Nothing. But what about Kaedwen, Dandelion? Why didn’t Henselt of Kaedwen come to Demavend and Meve’s aid? They had a pact, after all; they were bound by an alliance. But even if Henselt, following Foltest’s example, pisses on the signatures and seals on documents, and the royal word means nothing to him, he cannot be stupid, can he? Doesn’t he understand that after the fall of Aedim and the deal with Temeria, it will be his turn; that he’s next on the Nilfgaardian list? Kaedwen ought to support Demavend out of good sense. There may no longer be faith nor truth in the world, but surely good sense still exists. What say you, Dandelion? Is there still good sense in the world? Or do only contemptibility and contempt remain?"

At least Dijkstra DID realize what Henselt didn't.

Sadly, Roche and Thaler didn't.

Or maybe they just assumed abandoning their fellow Northerners to be on the winning side was somehow less than contemptible.

At least the Bloody Baron owned up to it!

 

[lumisohjo]

Because Zoltan was moving around all over the world before W2 while Saskia and Iorveth were always centered in their previous territory. Zoltan also has a reason and excuse. He was following Dandelion. What possible reason or excuse would Iorveth and Saskia have for leaving their territory and coming to a place where the war is raging and they would be hunted down by both sides? It's illogical for them to come but very logical for Zoltan.

No one has given one logical reason why Iorveth and Saskia come to Temeria and even the comment that Emhyr cuts a deal with Saskia is not logical. Why cut a deal with a foe that you can brush aside so easily? It just doesn't happen. Aedirn was a very minor sideshow and easy conquest so no Emhyr would never cut a deal.

But that's partially wrong. Iorveth is originally from Temeria, he fought and defeated almost every Temerian commander and just came to Aedirn because he believed in Saskias idea. So given the (supposed) canon situation that Aedirn was already conquered by Henselt before Nilfgaard invaded and Saskia being probably dead, why do you think should Iorveth stay in Aedirn? It would be rather logical for me to backtrack in familiar territory. Furthermore he isn't just a local Scoiatael commander and elsewhere unknown. He's one of the two surviving commanders of the Vrihedd Brigade, his name should be quite memorable for Nilfgaardians. So one reason more not to stay in an occupied Aedirn.

 

[Toyen]

I have an idea!

How about if you side with Saskia and assassinate Radovid with her, she then overthrows the church of the Eternal Fire and wins the war leading the North!

That would be doable, much more believable than Djikstra winning the war. Saskia has all the worlds nonhumans on her side but who does he have? A few thugs?

This would have been the happiest ending : )

 

[Willowhugger]

What have you got against Dijkstra?

He's the Kingpin with no Spiderman or Daredevil to muck things up!

 

[Toyen]

I just don´t like him because I don´t trust him.

 

[swordsandroses]

Thanks Gerald01 and Goodmongo for your indepth input.

I do feel like you've focussed on some less important bits though. Like whether Saskia lives or dies. That's more of a result whether players have been successful or not at curing her. But she is instrumental player is 50% of W2, for all players who genuinely chose to help the non humans, not counting the saddistic minority who would chose that path to kill her on purpose. Kinda like those players who would kill the warewolf in W1 instead saving him.

Just like CDPR made a decision about Henselt, same can be done with Saskia. After the stunt Philippa pulled on her, she is now way more obeservant and careful and she lives.

Iorveth is twice as skilled at surviving than Roche, and is a pillar of strength and resilience amongst elves and squirrels in general. To exclude him goes directly against the core principle of choice and consequence in witcher series.

I've only offered a possibility in replacing Roche, Ves and their camp. Didn't really give it enough thought, but I agree with you they don't need to be replaced / removed.

They can still be there, only they are beaten and miserable because players didn't chose to help them in W2. It would add extra guilt for players who sided with Iorveth.

But they could just add Aedernian camp further east, closer to the border.

My whole point is that Roche and Ves are in no way anymore interesting nor important than Saskia and Iorveth, and given their small role in W3, it doesn't feel like a huge undertaking to add them.

I don't see why would Geralt harbour any patriotic feelings towards Temeria, where he was forced to play lackey for a king.