2019 DEMO was telling the truth, you just didn't listen.

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That's my complaint towards the branching choices. This one is fake. If you're going to have a person choose a outcome. The game must have outcomes done for BOTH choices. This is not real choice. On top of it. It's horrible writing. Sasquatch is a plot device. You never ever interact with her in a good or bad way.

you kill her or spare her based what you feel like your character would do. And no, sometimes a decision should not create equal and opposite content. If you are asked go home and sleep, or go to the club, its not logical for, go home and sleep, to generate some adventure equal to going out to the club.
 
People aren't asking for 35 endings or 10 completely different plots. People expected choices and consequences on the level of The Witcher 3. And they got a game where most of the dialogues have only 1 answer or 2 that lead to the same thing.

There's a few of them but they all lead up to the same story beats, just like in the Witcher 3.

I really don't understand why there is so much misunderstanding in the discussion of Cyberpunk's linearity.

Because it's factually false, it's not subjective, not everything is an opinion even if one claims so.

The Witcher 3 - Fighting the Baron's men or peacefully resolving the conflict with them leads to two different ways to get to the Baron. Fighting the Baron's child or taming him leads to two different quests with different characters and dialogue.
If you go to Skellige without completing Velen, you get new dialogues and a unique quest.

Every quest in Cyberpunk (story, side jobs, gigs) should be structured like Pick Up, where V and Jackie are buying a Flathead bot.

There are a lot of quests with different outcomes based on V's decision, don't mistake this as changing the events in the quest, the events still happen one way or another but V can decided what they do in regards to those events either through dialogue or action.

I understand people might not like this approach, I'm ambivalent about it, I wish the quest chains were longer and had more ramifications or intertwined more.

It's ok to try out new things, not everything needs to be the same.
 
When you play the Intro of the game, with the LP's. Do any of them connect, no. When you play the LP's in the endings. You're allowed to play all the endings. And they end up at the same end. The LP's do not change the endings to fit their LP's. That's what people expected. People have argued that each of the endings are a set ending for the LP's. Than the endings should have been blocked to the LP's. Corpo's ending is garbage no matter what. Because V can't fully go back to what they where.

When there's many ways the story could have accomplished this in the ending. They know they had no choice but allow all the endings. Because the game was already small. The Panam ending fits the Nomads. To make it not feel cut off in the Corp and Street Kid. Getting Panam's car back would be the ending point of that story. The rest would be exclusive to Nomad players. If they had exclusive branching points for the LP's. This could have been done. EX: Panam would still be in the Corpo story. But you get a totally different side story. That doesn't involve the tank. let's face it. That's what the game felt like they where planning. Or why would the tank be used TWO freaking times, and that's it.

they literally said that LP would not lock you out of LP themed endings.

I agree they could have separated it, but I don't think that is necessarily better. Many people would be upset they have to start over to experience content, repeating the major plot points, gearing up, etc.

The tank is used two times because a tank is not often very useful in an urban setting.
 
When you play the Intro of the game, with the LP's. Do any of them connect, no. When you play the LP's in the endings. You're allowed to play all the endings. And they end up at the same end. The LP's do not change the endings to fit their LP's. That's what people expected. People have argued that each of the endings are a set ending for the LP's. Than the endings should have been blocked to the LP's. Corpo's ending is garbage no matter what. Because V can't fully go back to what they where.

Which is a fair point, but that wasn't what I was referring to.

Although I believe you can play a specific character on a specific lifepath, wished there was more dialogue variation based on this though.

When there's many ways the story could have accomplished this in the ending. They know they had no choice but allow all the endings. Because the game was already small. The Panam ending fits the Nomads. To make it not feel cut off in the Corp and Street Kid. Getting Panam's car back would be the ending point of that story. The rest would be exclusive to Nomad players. If they had exclusive branching points for the LP's. This could have been done. EX: Panam would still be in the Corpo story. But you get a totally different side story. That doesn't involve the tank. let's face it. That's what the game felt like they where planning. Or why would the tank be used TWO freaking times, and that's it. Panam's romance would also have to be written 3 different ways. You can see why branching in this game was neglected. It took them 4 years to even write what we got. There was no way the detailed branching done in Act 1 would have been executed through the whole game.

Either that or they're following the trend of allowing the player to experience everything at all times with minimal effort.

Which is conjecture to be fair.
 
you kill her or spare her based what you feel like your character would do. And no, sometimes a decision should not create equal and opposite content. If you are asked go home and sleep, or go to the club, its not logical for, go home and sleep, to generate some adventure equal to going out to the club.
Yes. Do that to a character that had no other purpose in the game. Except a boss fight. That is bad writing. It's still fake choice. Sparing or killing gang's and gang leaders characters, is not equal to going to sleep. I'd like to save Brendon from being erased. But I don't have a problem if this mini mission didn't have a choice. I damn well have a problem with gangs being neglected.
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I agree they could have separated it, but I don't think that is necessarily better. Many people would be upset they have to start over to experience content, repeating the major plot points, gearing up, etc.
LP's are meaningless than. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I had to replay ME in order to be asshole shepard or good shepard. If I wanted to see the all the options. I rather have one LP, than 2 that are fake.
 
Oh another "you are holding it wrong" kind of topic.
You choose your life path only to get dialog options that are a joke .
The first dialog with the Nomad was something like this.
-Yes
-No (ok no but i will do it anyway)
-Yes (Nomad)
 
Yes. Do that to a character that had no other purpose in the game. Except a boss fight. That is bad writing. It's still fake choice. Sparing or killing gang's and gang leaders characters, is not equal to going to sleep.

Not every choice you make is going to have huge ramifications, some do, some don't. That doesn't mean the choice should not exist, because in an RPG how your character does things matters. If you are rping a killer, or a goody, matters for RP purposes. Also, the player shouldn't know that every choice is a big deal.

Also, I really can't say she doesn't matter for certain, there are a number of subtle changes that are not obvious, and there's also lore changes you see in other parts of the game like news/emails/etc
 
Let's compare this to the Automatic Love quest in Cyberpunk.

You MUST connect to the computer at the front desk, or you won't get into the club. If you study Evelyn's room beforehand, V will still talk to the doll as if he hadn't been there. After watching the recording of what happened to Evelyn, you have a dialog with two choices "It's cyberpsychosis" or "She was hacked remotely. Choose the Cyberpsychosis option and V will still say she was hacked remotely.

So you're telling me you can find out about Ciri without talking to the baron? Or without going to Novigrad and Skellige?

I also believe there's another way in by using double jump on the other side of the veranda, I remember bypassing the entire doll act and sneaking all the way to Woodman's office by using the scaffolding and force-opening the windows.

I don't know if you can do this without logging into the club's database as I didn't have double jump to get over the wired fence.

If you go straight to the VIP area without talking to the dolls, nothing changes. If you kill Woodman, you don't get a new quest with new dialogues and characters to help you find Fingers. No, you'll find out about Fingers in the same room, just from Woodman's computer, not from himself.

The dialogue changes if you deal with Jotaro prior to this, the event also changes if you bypass the doll sequence, Woodman becomes aggressive regardless of what you chose because V doesn't have the info from Tom.

I don't see the problem with everything else, it makes logical sense. Yeah I wished there was more, but I'm ok with what I got.

Cyberpunk story - 20 hours. Witcher 3 story - 60 hours.

Is that a fact?

If so based on what?

Fast traveling?

Doing intertwining quests in between the missions?

My first playthrough of Cyberpunk was 78 hours with mostly doing the main story arcs and major side quests, I've finished The Witcher 3 with all the expansions in 122 hours.

Every quest in Cyberpunk (story, side jobs, gigs) should be structured like Pick Up, where V and Jackie are buying a Flathead bot.

I agree, I wish there was more, but claiming that things that are clearly there are missing is incorrect.
 
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There is no real choice besides the final talk with Johnny.

The choices you have is yes or no, romances are a good example on this, the only way to not romance someone is to not make their mission, i think Judy mission have one breaking point, you could side with Maiko, but really, who would do that...

Example for that is the dream on mission, you can tell the truth or not, even in the first part, nothing you do will change something, you will end blocked and that´s it.
 

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First of all, they promised a good AI.
The current one doesn't even take cover for grenades

And the fact that most of the features made it into the final game still doesn't change the fact that they should have been balanced better:
-Tech weapons can clear out a palace with no downsides (especially because the enemies are not able to react to an in-game wall-hack with no perforation limits whatsoever), and so I ask myself: why even bother with power weapons at all, especially if even homing smart weapons are available.

-The nanowire hacking thing may be redundant (even if I came up with an idea to re-implement that by rebalancing the hack system. Stories for another time which won't see the light because I'm no modder), but as it is, the lack of any particular ability makes it a little lackluster, compared to the way more efficient Mantis Blades or the door-breaking Gorilla Arms

Skilltree needs some rework: there are even useless perks at the moment (underwater stealth: good! Where's the water tho?)



And don't even get me started on enemy variety and quickhacks balancing: it's just ridiculous!
Why the heck can't at least enemy netrunners shield themselves from my almighty contagion?



Finally, at least for now, they had months to work on melee animations and they still look pretty bad in mu opinikn, at least.
They didn't even bother, even after all these hotfixes and a first manor patch, to add any kind of stealth takedowns with melee weapons (and even vanilla Skyrim, under certain conditions had that!)


It's not about what they gave to us, but HOW they made it, and "rough around the edges" is way too forgiving.


Forget Grenades.

The AI has no idea how to deal with Long ranged opponents (Hacks or Sniper Rifles or Pistols with Wild West)
The Ai has no idea how to deal with Tech Weapons (They literally will stay in cover being repeatedly shot through walls)
The Ai can be stun-locked by Heavy Melee hits in several cases
The Ai has no working ability to counter stealth melee takedowns (The Ability Break Hold is there but it doesn't work, just changes the animation)
The Ai has no ability to counter Smart weapons.
The only thing it can handle remotely is short-range power weapons.


35 perks do not work at all currently, Several are overworking, or still buggy on top of that.
There is literally only 1 LMG in the game
Evasion does not work at all
Tech does not increase armor like it says in the tool tip.
 
So you're telling me you can find out about Ciri without talking to the baron? Or without going to Novigrad and Skellige?

I also believe there's another way in by using double jump on the other side of the veranda, I remember bypassing the entire doll act and sneaking all the way to Woodman's office by using the scaffolding and force-opening the windows.

I don't know if you can do this without logging into the club's database as I didn't have double jump to get over the wired fence.



The dialogue changes if you deal with Jotaro prior to this, the event also changes if you bypass the doll sequence, Woodman becomes aggressive regardless of what you chose because V doesn't have the info from Tom.

I don't see the problem with everything else, it makes logical sense. Yeah I wished there was more, but I'm ok with what I got.



Is that a fact?

If so based on what?

Fast traveling?

Doing intertwining quests in between the missions?

My first playthrough of Cyberpunk was 78 hours with mostly doing the main story arcs and major side quests.



I agree, I wish there was more, but claiming that things that are clearly there are missing is incorrect.
this is not a fair comparison anyway though. automatic love is part of a whole quest chain. The pickup is one part. you don't get to do the braindance tons of different ways, or dex's convos.

plus killing Woodman or not killing Woodman matters later in the chain, giving Judy the chance to be part of that or not, also giving you new dialog or refusing to let her kill. Judy's questline actually has a bunch of choices that matter, effecting your relationship, which in turn effects endings.
 
Again, the open-world AI is likely the biggest draw back. It's not the only one, but it's of serious detriment. It really makes suspending disbelief very difficult so I think a lot of people don't see their actions having an impact because you're impacting a sheet of drywall practically.

I noticed areas responding to my actions steadily and really appreciated it. I cleared out some Valentinos beneath a Mega-building, came back (game time) days later by chance to find vendors there and loved it. It took awhile, so perhaps some people simply didn't notice because it's not so instantaneous as -Player made video game guy mad, video game guy yell and shoot player immediately. Perhaps it's more mature, lacking gamer time instant gratification... but the rest of the unfinished and broken can make it almost unnoticeable. It's also inconsistent.

I did the same to some Tyger Claws, and kept finding them respawning in the exact same place, same position, doing the same thing, with the same vehicles that they never use. Some areas respond and others don't, more often they don't seem to and this is compounded by the other issues. I know gangs and police in cars were a thing because I've seen glimpses of them in vehicles, the Valentinos even tried to run me down and pull a drive by. I saw Maelstrom pull up on some Tyger claws, then wig out - becoming hostile to me briefly, mounting the window sills of the cars before going back to idle, exiting the car, then becoming hostile to the Tyger Claws.

Another thing that would help is reputation. This game doesn't even need a deep reputation system to please people, though it would be appreciated - just something solid. Maybe the gangs get really hostile to you after you kill so many and changing your appearance effects this to a degree. That's kind of a shit reputation system, but something not very difficult to do that would go a long way to alleviate people's gripes.

Gangs, the Police, and Trauma Team, even the different districts, are severely underserviced in the main story. Hell, the factions go unrepresented even in the side quests. I think Trauma Team makes an appearance in one side quest and the first mission, then they're just window dressing for the rest of the game. MaxTac apparently appears once in some random gig, etc.
 
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I've watched the whole deep dive, and aside minor level design alterations, this footage seems to 100% accurately portray the game.

Other than the UI changing, the mono-wire losing a redundant ability quick hacking already accomplishes; can someone please
explain to me how this deep dive is misdirecting the viewer? I think this is perfect point to make. Everyone's expectations was based off
the 2018 demo even though a year later 2019's deep dive footage was the real game.

The 2018 demo had many things not present in the final game, so I understand how people are upset about that.
But this deep dive represented 99% of what is actually in the retail game yet people call foul. I don't know, but it seems like
a little accountability is in order for those cooking up insurmountable expectations in their head of what this game would be.

Keep in mind, I'm not excusing the bugs or the poor quality on last gen. That's a completely different topic. I'm talking about the actual game, and content
we eventually got. I don't see crazy added features in this deep dive that were later stripped away.


why do you bring up the 2019 demo (No one is arguing about the 2019 demo...)
the whole point of "fake demo" argument (and the 48 minute video everyone is refering to constantly) is the 2018 one
(2019 wasn't even in the arguments to begin with)
 
Its not just about the video though..it is about what they told us in numerous videos and interviews what to expect in the game and they clearly lied to us..sure the vid basically said not final product..but the makers themselves kept saying everything and we got barely the surface.
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funny how the demo mentions this game as an RPG when even the cyberpunk twitter account change to story driven adventure :giveup:
Exactly and they kept saying 'don't compare this to gta, its an rpg before anything else'
 
They don't. Most of the choices aren't real, they don't produce consequences like it was in The Witcher's trilogy.

What does that even mean, all of a sudden what I decide to have for breakfast isn't a real choice because it ultimately leads to me eating... what nonsense.

You realize that the main story is divided into three major branches, two of which can be totally ignored.

And most side quests have different ways to approach them and finish them.

But it's a free world you're allowed to believe whatever you want.

So this is me checking out of this argument.
 
What does that even mean, all of a sudden what I decide to have for breakfast isn't a real choice because it ultimately leads to me eating... what nonsense.
In CP2077 yes, your choice of breakfast will lead you to eat and end of history, but the RPG should be, you can cook something, eat a expired burrito or eat nothing, and this will have consequences in your day and the people you will interact with.
Bioware was good in doing this, ME was a puzzle of choices, CDPR is somehow ok with this system, in W3 we have a lot of quests that have consequences, most of the time we choose the lesser bad, witcher style.
CP2077 was a rushed game, we see this clearly because act1, in act1 we have some important choices to make with consequences, after that we have choices only in the end.
Sure you can approach any quest as you want, stealth, rambo or whatever, what can change is how much eddies you will earn, nothing more, the mission will progress the way it should and fixer will still have that icon available to you in the map.
 
In CP2077 yes, your choice of breakfast will lead you to eat and end of history, but the RPG should be, you can cook something, eat a expired burrito or eat nothing, and this will have consequences in your day and the people you will interact with.

Not all RPGs are built on a dialogue choice based system, but there are consequences in Cyberpunk.


Bioware was good in doing this, ME was a puzzle of choices, CDPR is somehow ok with this system, in W3 we have a lot of quests that have consequences, most of the time we choose the lesser bad, witcher style.

I understand what you're trying to say, have more choices with immediate and clear cut effects, like swapping out NPCs and lines of dialogue, which is pretty much the extend of the result in those games you mentioned, except for The Witcher 2 of course.

Well Cyberpunk has different types of consequences presented through world building, like clearing out an area brings in regular people and opening up shops, news bulletins, radio, NPC chatter, shards and dialogue lines.

I understand you might prefer the other method, but I can see them both for what they are, and I'm completely fine with it because it serves the purpose of telling a cohesive narrative that's rather fluid in the middle arc and branching in the latter arcs.

It's different and there are few traditional choices and consequences and I would have liked to have more, or more distinctive ones or at least have the world be more reactive (like NPCs towards V).

CP2077 was a rushed game, we see this clearly because act1, in act1 we have some important choices to make with consequences, after that we have choices only in the end.

That's conjecture, there are similar scenarios in all of the acts that lead to specific story beats that need to stay consistent.

As for the rushed part, clearly it was.

But besides the bugs we don't know what else was affected maybe this was always the finished state they had in mind they just couldn't optimize the engine in time for release on seven different platforms.

The point is we don't know, it seems coherent to me so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt regarding the narrative in the game.

Sure you can approach any quest as you want, stealth, rambo or whatever, what can change is how much eddies you will earn, nothing more, the mission will progress the way it should and fixer will still have that icon available to you in the map.

You develop your character, if approaching stealthily you gain stealth xp which boosts your attribute to unlock the special perk at the end.

If you don't play your build consistently you will never level up your attributes fast enough for them to become effective.

As for the rest, depending on the job specifications there are different outcomes, if the job requires stealth you get a bonus at the end, if the job is an assassination there are different ways to get to your target, one of them being dialogue, you can convince the target to leave the city as well in some scenarios.

You can fail main quest lines if you don't do them properly, if you take your time Saul dies, if you tell on Panam to Saul she erases you from her phone, depending on how you talk to Johnny you can lock yourself out of Rogue's missions, if you don't investigate properly you can botch River's quest, same with finding out what happened to the previous Mayor.

Yes the long lasting implications are too subtle sometimes I agree.
 
The problem is that the demos really oversold the game honestly if you take what the narrator says in both demos, and then play the game at a certain point you'll notice that the city is just dead, your impact on it is really not there as they said in demos, sure some things are there just like in the demo with some changes, you still have choices and different approaches but the consequences are lacking a lot especially when you're doing the main quest at this point it's just all an illusion that what we do will lead to something but I could be wrong here are some examples so SPOILERS

- After the heist, you messed with Arasaka and yoinked something valuable you're wanted and so is Goro we never get to see any Arasaka agent whatsoever pursuing us/ambush us or anything really after the scripted chase.

- Now for the VDB's here you have two options side with the VDB's or NetWatch doesn't matter what you pick you'll never see any consequence of having sided with someone outside of the scripted segment with Alt, also if you don't kill the VDB's Placide will message you at some point threatening that something will happen to you, but guess what? right, nothing happens just like if you kill them and go to Pacifica everything is dandy.

I could keep on going with these examples but I'll just stop here, you basically mess with major corps/gangs and get away with it with nothing to worry about...

The only consequences I could remember is during the Pick Up obviously the one that was shown in the first demo and how polished it is and also Pisces which has multiple fates for Cloud's, and some consequences here and there for other major side missions that involve new characters. now what happened to this and I quote "So many options, so many possibilities, and each will have consequences rippling through the game world and your story" and the famous "And that's just one quest" and before you mention it yes I do see a watermark of work in progress but that's one hell of a way to progress seeing how the game ended up.

TL;TR The demos and marketing oversold the game by using scripted and polished scenes which boosted the hype and used those to say there is more like this ingame but actually, there isn't, and that's what got people mad while taking the cut stuff into consideration.

On a personal note, I'd like to say that I was never part of the hype train for this game, but in the end, regardless of bugs I'm really enjoying it so far even if it's lacking things here n there, it's a decent game but I gotta admit that other than with the story, characters and city which are GREAT, CDPR really set the bar low for the other aspects of the game, but it is what it is in the end.:shrug:
 
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