A Dev Team with CDPR Standards

[volsung]

Now that I took the time to watch those videos, I am somewhat excited about this game. Looks very action oriented for my taste (in RPG's) but the environment and setting looks fantastic! Mystical, dark and intriguing. As they explained, they REALLY need an animator: those fights look like puppet battles! Also I find it extremely doubtful that someone wearing full plate armor can be so flexible, heh heh.

I looks like a mix of Diablo and Demon/Dark Souls done right. If they can add some real role-playing options, variable gameplay possibilities depending on your playstyle, a truly reactive world, then I'm in. I don't think I'll be pledging, but I will probably be buying it from their website whenever it comes out.

This is what we need: innovative, creative PC games that play like PC games.

 

[freakie1one]

@.Volsung.:

I'm glad you can see past the clunkiness of a game that is in a pre-alpha state and realize the potential! It really is refreshing to see a dev team attempt to bring so much innovation in what has been a relatively stale period for RPGs. How well they'll succeed is for time to tell, but I'm defintely keeping a close eye on the game. The last time I was this excited for an RPG was before The Witcher 1 was released and I had accidentally stumbled upon it.

 

[Veleda.980]

I read the Forbes interview yesterday when trying to decide whether I could justify spending money on the Kickstarter, and was a bit underwhelmed. I still have no idea what this game is about or why I'd want to play it, except "dark fantasy RPG" which is becoming a rather stock thing. So I couldn't justify participating, though I'm glad they made their goal since many are enthused about it.

 

[freakie1one]

@Veleda:

Yeah, you're not the only one who is underwhelmed by their lack of information concerning parts of their game (especially the story/plot). They are saying that the main focus of the game will be uncovering and discovering the story and they're afraid of spoiling the game before it's even released. However, the devs are quite active on their forums and have answered many questions that help to flesh-out a bit more what the game will be like (if they can actually accomplish their goals). They have a lot of original ideas they're attempting to implement and if they succeed in this area the game will definitely be unique

Someone asked the devs why they were attempting to "reinvent the wheel in so many areas when it's not necessary" and they responded with "it is necessary when the wheel is square".

 

[GuyNwah]

Someone asked the devs why they were attempting to "reinvent the wheel in so many areas when it's not necessary" and they responded with "it is necessary when the wheel is square".

This is exactly what makes me skeptical about this team and their plans. Belief that nobody else has already done what you want to do, and taken more time and done it better already, is the manner of hubris that leads me to believe this team does not know how to specify or manage a product.

You can have the most excellent, creative, artistic, fun ideas for a game in the world. You can articulate those in the most glowing and convincing terms that your language gives you scope for. But if you cannot assemble and fund and support and guide and manage a development team that will get the job done with the time, personnel, and funds available to you, you are a waste of money. And if you believe you have to do everything over, you give no confidence that you can do those other things.

 

[gregski]

Yes, they were well known as a publisher. I'm sure you're aware that being a publisher does not give you credentials or a reputation as a competent game developer. The Witcher 1 was their first game and as a developer they were untested until after its release. Just as Bare Mettle isn't a competent game developer until proven otherwise (by an actual release).

Actually, CDPR's first attempt at being a game developer rather than only publisher took place in 2000, when they received an offer by Interplay to develop a PC port of Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. They even managed to build a developer team, but due to Interplay's trouble at that time the project was cancelled. But the team was there, with first modest experience under their belt, ready to dive into RPG development.

 

[Garrison72]

This is exactly what makes me skeptical about this team and their plans. Belief that nobody else has already done what you want to do, and taken more time and done it better already, is the manner of hubris that leads me to believe this team does not know how to specify or manage a product.

You can have the most excellent, creative, artistic, fun ideas for a game in the world. You can articulate those in the most glowing and convincing terms that your language gives you scope for. But if you cannot assemble and fund and support and guide and manage a development team that will get the job done with the time, personnel, and funds available to you, you are a waste of money. And if you believe you have to do everything over, you give no confidence that you can do those other things.

I think they're just tooting their own horn. Pretty standard for a Kickstarter pitch. Veleda brings up a good point, but to me the devs have shown a remarkable game engine in action, which is a hell of a lot more than Obsidian has done and they got almost 4 million dollars. These guys have shown they're over half way there.

 

[freakie1one]

This is exactly what makes me skeptical about this team and their plans. Belief that nobody else has already done what you want to do, and taken more time and done it better already, is the manner of hubris that leads me to believe this team does not know how to specify or manage a product.

You can have the most excellent, creative, artistic, fun ideas for a game in the world. You can articulate those in the most glowing and convincing terms that your language gives you scope for. But if you cannot assemble and fund and support and guide and manage a development team that will get the job done with the time, personnel, and funds available to you, you are a waste of money. And if you believe you have to do everything over, you give no confidence that you can do those other things.

That is a fair analysis, Guy. I've seen people attempt innovation in games in the past and fail horribly at it. And unless I'm mistaken, there are many more failures than successful ventures in this regard. However, despite knowing full well that the odds are stacked against them, I still have hope that Bare Mettle will succeed. They've already demonstrated their dedication to the game by working on it for the past year while also working full-time jobs. And it's impressive how much they've accomplished in that time period considering the circumstances.

CDPR went about creating The Witcher games (or so they claim) with the attitude that they were creating games that they themselves wanted to play. For both games they added a lot of innovation and their own ideas into the mix instead of just copying the same old tried-and-true formula. It's much more impressive when a dev team attempts to do something new and succeeds as opposed to simply making a generic game that you know will sell well. This, combined with how they treat their fans, is why I hold CDPR in high regard.

If no one ever attempted to add innovation or new ideas into games it would be a very dreary future for gaming.

 

[freakie1one]

Actually, CDPR's first attempt at being a game developer rather than only publisher took place in 2000, when they received an offer by Interplay to develop a PC port of Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. They even managed to build a developer team, but due to Interplay's trouble at that time the project was cancelled. But the team was there, with first modest experience under their belt, ready to dive into RPG development.

Oh, awesome info, gregski! Thanks for sharing I wasn't aware of this. Did CDPR actually advertise this project and was it well known? And did this original dev team disband or are they the ones who worked on The Witcher?

P.S. this type of info is why we keep paying you so well to spy for us!

 

[gregski]

Oh, awesome info, gregski! Thanks for sharing />/> I wasn't aware of this. Did CDPR actually advertise this project and was it well known? And did this original dev team disband or are they the ones who worked on The Witcher?

P.S. this type of info is why we keep paying you so well to spy for us! />/>

As I said, the project was cancelled and didn't gain any broader recognition. However it laid down the basics for the Witcher dev team. The whole affair made the owners believe they can create their own RPG, they just needed a good license, something that had a chance to "catch on". So they got in touch with Sapkowski and...you know the rest

And...errmm...about that payment

 

[freakie1one]

As I said, the project was cancelled and didn't gain any broader recognition. However it laid down the basics for the Witcher dev team. The whole affair made the owners believe they can create their own RPG, they just needed a good license, something that had a chance to "catch on". So they got in touch with Sapkowski and...you know the rest

And...errmm...about that payment

Ah, I was just curious if they had actually done any advertising to the public or if it was more of a behind closed doors project that wasn't officially announced and then cancelled. Interesting history though

And just to make sure there is no trace I can only offer payments in either vodka or fine American whiskey

 

[freakie1one]

Bare Mettle has released a few insider videos for Sui Generis and the game is looking amazing! They have created some really innovative systems. Like the inventory system is a slotless inventory. You just drag and drop items onto your character and they are appropriately equipped. Boots tuck into trousers, gloves into your shirt sleeves, etc. And the slotless inventory system applies to containers and other objects in the environment. This means you can hide items like keys behind other objects.

Also, here's a post made by the lead developer recently which I found to be interesting:

Again, we're not selling anything here, we're crowd funding, we're promising rewards to people who support the game, who fund it by making contributions. You should make whatever contribution you are comfortable with and do it willingly, because you want to see the game made and because it won't unless you help. You can't buy anything from us, you can make a pledge and we will reward you as best we can.

That's the only point I want to make but I'm going to take the opportunity to remind you of what we're doing and why.

We didn't use Kickstarter as a platform for promotion, we actually need the funding. As it is we barely raised enough to for us to live off. I don't even pay myself a salary and I put everything I can get hold of into the game, my family has helped too. I'm not saying this to justify our reward tiers, they are just rewards that we hope people will be happy to receive when they've made a contribution of a certain size.

Nothing we do makes any sense from a business point of view, we have no business model, we're just trying to make a game we're very passionate about making and exactly the way we think it should be made. This is the only way it's going to happen because from an investor's point of view it is complete insanity. When we launched our Kickstarter we didn't do anything to market it, not because of laziness or incompetence but because we found it distasteful. We soon realised how true it is that marketing is far more important than the product itself. We have real skills and we have attracted publishers but the conversation about "minimising risks" and "increasing profit" is one we're simply not willing to participate in.

No one wants to see this game made more than us, but that's really all we're trying to accomplish. I taught myself programming as a teenager because I was taken by an ambition to make an RPG and that's all I've ever wanted to do since. It's extremely unlikely this game will ever have mass appeal, we don't have the means to market it and it will never carry a high price tag, DRM, microtransactions, DLCs or whatever else we should be doing to make a profit.

 

[Guest 2091327]

That's bloody brilliant. Didn't back them during the Kickstarter despite following it with keen interest (and jubilations when they got funded), but now I'm more than a little tempted to pledge my support.

Are there any new videos available to the public?

Edit: Do you know if the £30 option includes beta access too? It would make sense since the £20 does, but it isn't stated. Would be weird if videos is more expensive than beta access.

 

[freakie1one]

Edit: Do you know if the £30 option includes beta access too? It would make sense since the £20 does, but it isn't stated. Would be weird if videos is more expensive than beta access.

I do not think it does. They added the 30 pound option for people who requested access to the insider videos that didn't want to spoil the game/story by playing the alpha/beta versions. There is a more expensive pledge that grants access to the insider forums, the insider videos, alpha and beta versions plus two copies of the game on release. And yes, they will eventually make some videos for the public once they get further along in the development process.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

If they can add some real role-playing options, variable gameplay possibilities depending on your playstyle, a truly reactive world, then I'm in.

This is what we need: innovative, creative PC games that play like PC games.

And right from the first video it seemed like they had something to contribute, their pitch was all about the mechanics, and I for one anyway like their vision, but it is only one part of making a game.

I still have no idea what this game is about or why I'd want to play it, except "dark fantasy RPG" which is becoming a rather stock thing.

Well i'd want to play it just for the combat mechanics, but whether i'd be playing for less than or multiples of an hour is another matter, and its unlikely game mechanics alone will keep me there. Unless this goes multiplayer .

I also haven't a clue about the world, the story type, or for that matter other important gameplay elements that combine to determine when I play a game or don't.

That is a fair analysis, Guy. I've seen people attempt innovation in games in the past and fail horribly at it. And unless I'm mistaken, there are many more failures than successful ventures in this regard. However, despite knowing full well that the odds are stacked against them, I still have hope that Bare Mettle will succeed. They've already demonstrated their dedication to the game by working on it for the past year while also working full-time jobs. And it's impressive how much they've accomplished in that time period considering the circumstances.

They've got my support too, and post launch I'll remember the details of its development in any criticism I make. We are not yet fully informed of all the consequences of crowd funding, but the ethos of that and gamers who wish to develop a game to play themselves are both attitudes i'd like to see succeed.

Just consider hiring / licensing a talented writer / IP, please Bare Mettle. I fear we'll see the best playing game combined with bad story.

As I said, the project was cancelled and didn't gain any broader recognition. However it laid down the basics for the Witcher dev team. The whole affair made the owners believe they can create their own RPG, they just needed a good license, something that had a chance to "catch on". So they got in touch with Sapkowski and...you know the rest />

That was an excellent bit of trivia.

I can see the progress from TW1-TW2->, differences and similarities, and I even believe when CDPR says things along the lines of "TW3 is the game we've always wanted to do, only we've had (such & such) limitations before." I suspect much of TW3 may be back to that original drawing board plan again.

Bare Mettle has released a few insider videos for Sui Generis and the game is looking amazing! They have created some really innovative systems. Like the inventory system is a slotless inventory. You just drag and drop items onto your character and they are appropriately equipped. Boots tuck into trousers, gloves into your shirt sleeves, etc. And the slotless inventory system applies to containers and other objects in the environment. This means you can hide items like keys behind other objects.

I didn't pledge for access or anything, all I can see on the webby is old stuff, but i'm still interested in hearing what anyone who knows feels available to say.

 

[freakie1one]

Kudos,

They've stressed many, many times how important the story is going to be and they did hire a dedicated writer. Right now we haven't seen much of his writing other than the bits of writing he did as examples for their Kickstarter project (posted in this thread earlier). They have a very clear idea of what the story is. They've given a lot of hints and bits and pieces of what the world/story will be like.

There will be an underworld which is supposed to be quite large. In the lore they mention something about beings who built cities in the sky. Thaumaturges (magic users) are pretty rare and powerful. When you kill a thaumaturge you can absorb some of his/her power (Highlander, anyone?). For some reason you (the player) can come back to life after death, which makes you unique. They haven't explained why this is so, just that it is an important part of the story. There are consequences for death, however. Everything you have equipped on you can be looted. The same is true for NPC's. Whatever they are equipped with can be looted. And just as you can absorb a thaumaturges power upon death the same applies to you as well; if you're killed a thaumaturge can absorb some of your power.

As far as multiplayer goes they are planning on adding it, but only after they have completely finished the single player (if they run out of time it might be added after the game is released). The multiplayer will not be massively multiplayer but more along the lines of LAN gameplay (having a few friends join in, similar to Baldur's Gate).

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Thanks for the infos .

Aye well, it would be very silly of them not to give the story some love, even a generic tale to put some meat on the procedurally generated bones. A MP game along the lines of BG/NWN was what I was thinking... there could be longevity there.

Any mention of a public release devkit for modding & making new adventures?

 

[freakie1one]

A dev kit is also a possibility but not until after release. They are a small team (only six people) and they have a relatively short development time allotted (May 2014 is their target release date). They've already been working on the game for over a year but still, only 2.5 years for a small team to finish a game is not much time! I suppose it helps that they all have a very clear vision of what they want the game to be. Also, they've already created the game engine and most of the toolsets necessary to create the game. Now they're just focusing on adding lots and lots of content!

 

[freakie1one]

The Bare Mettle team released an update about their current progress on Sui Generis (with new screenshots too!). You can read the entire article here: LINK. Here are a few bits that I found interesting:

The kind of roleplaying experience we dreamed of and hope to create is one that hasn't been possible without a human game master who can intelligently respond to all your actions. We want your actions to have meaningful effects, not as pre-scripted "choice and consequences" over which we have no real insight or control, but as a world that is affected realistically by everything you do. We want you to be able to make mistakes, to fail and to feel that your successes are your own. We even want you to accomplish things that we as designers have never foreseen. We want a world capable of supporting your most creative strategies, where hypothetical scenarios turn out to be real. We're talking about roleplaying, immersion, being master of your own character in a world that can make you believe it is real.

One of the core concepts is that NPCs never do things just because we designers said they should. Everything they say and do is the result of a decision. They have goals, ambitions, emotions and various traits that guide everything they do. To create behaviours and plotlines we first have to create motivations. NPCs will always have choices and they will make one because the conditions are right. A great many parameters are involved in making any of these decisions and altering any of them can change the course of events. This doesn't just apply to specific plotlines, we want every apparently insignificant NPC action and behaviour to be driven by decisions and always to react to changing conditions.

We are attaching meaning to every single thing, real or conceptual, in the game. Nothing in our world is just a visual prop and ideally we want NPCs to understand everything they say and do. When creating an object we don't just make a 3D model and maybe some script or code for how it is used in some quest, we create a "thing" and then attach any number of additional pre-existing conceptual types. These implicitly describe what the thing is or in what ways it can be perceived, what it can be used for and what its properties are in whatever circumstantial role it is adopting. This gives us a foundation for AI perception and understanding, interactivity and an intuitive, unified way to assign properties to absolutely everything. We have also developed a character editor and these things are allowing us to place actual interactive objects and characters in the game instead of just 3D models with physics and animations.

More recently we also succeeded in finalising how dialogue will work and we developed a complete and very neat tool with which to write actual interactive dialogue for the game. The dialogue system works closely with our AI and dynamic event system. In many ways it is like a scaled-down version of our event system. We have had a number of original ideas on making dialogue more dynamic and natural. Saying something is a decision like taking any other action. It is subject to circumstance and any external factors that might apply. Dialogue occurs in real time, people might talk over each other, grow impatient, add to what they said if there's an awkward silence, react to external events, etc. Information is being conveyed and others might be listening, they might even join the conversation. Characters are always at the mercy of their perception; roles and identities are open to interpretation.

They are also currently working on a new video which demonstrates some of the new features. I'll post a link to the video when it's released.

 

[soldiergeralt]

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