A Living, Breathing NIGHT CITY

[Suhiira]

Oh, I think they are armed.

What makes you think it's hyperbole that nearly everyone in Night City owns a gun? Source? Night City Sourcebook was pretty clear on the setting -

It just plain can't be THAT dangerous.

I'm not going to go over all the points you made ... I know they're in the published material. This is another of those places where I disagree with published material.
Sure it makes for a "fun" game background but it flies so far from anything approaching "reality" it makes me react the same way I do to Anime Babes swinging swords bigger then they are.

Ridiculous levels of lethal force ("Travellet‘s Advisory: It is unwise to interfere with the legitimate impounding and removal of a vehicle; tow units are generally well armed and authorized to employ deadly force in the conduct of their lawful duties.") mean that statistically the average citizen will be killed by either thugs, gangs, terrorists, edgerunners, or the authorities long before they ever die of old age.
Very few people want to live in a war zone permanently.
Sorry Sard, I flat out refuse to buy it.

Hyperbole again.... even if most people own a gun, not everyone carries it. And the majority of those guns are oging to be either extgremely light weight one-shot weapons that can fit on a keychain, or shitty but pretty polymer one-shots bought as fashion statements over the idea that the owner knows how to use it.

Exactly.
Ownership of a weapon is far, Far, FAR different from knowing how to use it effectively.
Everyone owns steak knives, does that make you an expert knife fighter?

 

[Suhiira]

In any case such a dangerous environment, where "everyone" carries a gun... where "everyone" has some training...

Europe prior to about 1600.
The American West ca. 1800.
Switzerland.
Portions of Africa today.

The presence, or absence, of weapons has little to do with the level of safety/security in a society.
BUT ... in order to have anything approaching a stable society there must be FAR more non-lethal enforcement of societies rules then lethal.

 

[Sardukhar]

BUT ... in order to have anything approaching a stable society there must be FAR more non-lethal enforcement of societies rules then lethal.

And Cyberpunk 2020 is not a stable or safe society, I think that's pretty heavily spelled-out in the setting. Night City is one of the safer cities in the U.S. - light armour and handguns will generally see you through. Kind of part of the whole dystopia thing.

War zone cities can last for years. People go on living there. Beirut. Kabul. Harare. Johannesburg. Port-Au-Prince.
There are plenty of examples of violent cities where the locals live in fear and carry weapons. Haiti, I just mentioned, a passenger of mine returned from there, everyone carries either a machete or a sidearm or has one nearby. People still live there.

Mexico has seen more than 50,000 deaths from violence from cartel-related activity, mostly the northern states but not all.

We were in Cambodia, security guards carried full-size Kalishnikovs. This because they occasionally need them. And that's the real world.

Night City is not Los Angeles or Dallas circa 1985. It's not .

It's not stable, it's not safe. It's Cyberpunk.

Otherwise, what city are you running? How is it different than LA or Detroit now, with differently coloured wallpaper and the occasional flying car?

How do you contrast it with Europe in 2020, which is, generally, safe?

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

It just plain can't be THAT dangerous.

I'm not going to go over all the points you made ... I know they're in the published material. This is another of those places where I disagree with published material.
Sure it makes for a "fun" game background but it flies so far from anything approaching "reality" it makes me react the same way I do to Anime Babes swinging swords bigger then they are.

Ridiculous levels of lethal force ("Travellet‘s Advisory: It is unwise to interfere with the legitimate impounding and removal of a vehicle; tow units are generally well armed and authorized to employ deadly force in the conduct of their lawful duties.") mean that statistically the average citizen will be killed by either thugs, gangs, terrorists, edgerunners, or the authorities long before they ever die of old age.
Very few people want to live in a war zone permanently.
Sorry Sard, I flat out refuse to buy it.



Exactly.
Ownership of a weapon is far, Far, FAR different from knowing how to use it effectively.
Everyone owns steak knives, does that make you an expert knife fighter?

hmmmmmmmmmm....anime babes with sword bigger then they are

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

As many have pointed out, Cyberpunk is based in a Dystopian version of our world. It is not a nice place to live, it's not civil and it's not safe by our current 'first world' standards.

The important thing to remember is that America, in this setting, is pretty close to being a 3rd world country. (If indeed it isn't actually one.) Remember, 70% of the population live below the poverty line and a significant number are officially homeless.

 

[Suhiira]

And Cyberpunk 2020 is not a stable or safe society, I think that's pretty heavily spelled-out in the setting. Night City is one of the safer cities in the U.S. - light armour and handguns will generally see you through. Kind of part of the whole dystopia thing.
...
War zone cities can last for years. People go on living there. Beirut. Kabul. Harare. Johannesburg. Port-Au-Prince.
There are plenty of examples of violent cities where the locals live in fear and carry weapons.
...
How do you contrast it with Europe in 2020, which is, generally, safe?

Yep, "War Zone Cities" can, and do last for years.
But not "War Zone" nations.
If "Night City is one of the safer cities in the U.S" and it requires firearms and body armor to run down to the corner market for milk then the entire country would have long since collapsed into complete anarchy. I'm NOT talking the "California Free States" ... I'm talking "Mad Max".
And if it is "Mad Max" no one in manufacturing anything because everyone's time in completely occupied by trying to obtain food, water, and shelter.
Again, I have zero issues with this sort of thing in a "beer and pretzels" game, and I don't think Cyberpunk is intended to be played as that sort of game.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yep, "War Zone Cities" can, and do last for years.
But not "War Zone" nations.

Sure. Zimbabwe again. Cambodia until the 90s or so. Sri Lanka until the 2000s. Civil War states. Semi or even better than semi-functional war zone nations. Not exactly top producers, but without the Corps, not much in the States would be a top producer.

If "Night City is one of the safer cities in the U.S" and it requires firearms and body armor to run down to the corner market for milk then the entire country would have long since collapsed into complete anarchy. I'm NOT talking the "California Free States" ... I'm talking "Mad Max".

Well, apparently it is very Mad Max outside the cities. Manufacturing and food production are done on automated, heavily-protected corporate installations.

You say firearms and body armour implying assault rifles and clamshell, but it's more a 9mm and a kevlar tshirt. I wouldn't say it's required to go to the corner store - just that it's a habit. And a good idea.

I think Night City is like a neon version of a Wild West city, in terms of security. Sure, there are sheriffs and marshals, but not too many. You're not likely to be involved in a gunfight, but it's not impossible. And for all the fear and caution, there is also opportunity. You aren't going to die in a bar-fight, (unless i'ts the Combat Zone), but the bouncers will have firepower and it's quite probable you surrendered your weapon at the door.

Carrying a firearm doesn't mean the end of the world, it means the culture of lethal self-defense is paramount and encouraged. That's how I picture Night CIty.

 

[waciuk]

I like the Wild West analogy. It implies casual violence is a possibility, but not necessarily a certainty. Best be on your guard though.

 

[wisdom000]

handicapped people are free to use heavy weapons to destroy your car if it's parked in their space, cops are empowered to kill you for traffic offenses......................... That's not hyperbole, that's from the sourcebook.

Citation needed....

 

[Sardukhar]

Citation needed....

Couple pages earlier. From the Night City sourcebook.

 

[wisdom000]

Dude, I give you page numbers and shit, sometimes even paragraph locations... you are gonna make me dig.... very suspicious...

 

[Sardukhar]

Dude, I give you page numbers and shit, sometimes even paragraph locations... you are gonna make me dig.... very suspicious...

I just want you to feel that rich sense of reward that discovery brings! Also, my copy of NC is a pdf and it's a pain to open and find stuff in. I miss the dead-tree version, sigh.

 

[wisdom000]

Hmm, well color me slightly amused, it is there... never noticed that before...

Now that I have noticed it, I will continue to ignore it, as yet another bad idea that taken together leads to a pretty much unplayable universe...

 

[blank_redge]

Couple pages earlier. From the Night City sourcebook.

Pages 8 - 9, specifically.


edit:

Ninja'd. Stupid support calls, preventing me from posting.

 

[Sardukhar]

Weakling. A real man would utterly post while doing support cost.

I find the above laws no crazier than some other laws. http://www.dumblaws.com/Arkansas and http://realstrangelaws.com/dumb-laws/arkansas/

I wonder if you leave enough stuff out of your game, at what point does it stop being Cyberpunk 2020 and start being Dangerous Urban Times 1995? At what point is it Now + different corp names + cyberware + flying cars?

What makes your Cyberpunk and Night City not just a lightly-flavoured Neon Los Angeles North?

Some of this stuff, like the tow truck drivers deadly force, only makes sense. It's 2020 - people are carrying guns, permits are easy to get, there are these things called booster gangs. Are you really arguing it's not a deadlier, meaner future? Of course tow drivers are empowered to use deadly force. That's hardly a stretch in a country that frequently allows you to use deadly force in protection of possessions right now.

As for unplayable, why would you say that?. SLA Industries and Dark Heresy are much crazier and they are plenty of fun to play. Don't even get started on how unrealistic such laws or such a society would be - human history is full of crazier. Italy under the Borgias, Rome under Nero, Russia under Stalin.

 

[Suhiira]

Carrying a firearm doesn't mean the end of the world, it means the culture of lethal self-defense is paramount and encouraged. That's how I picture Night CIty.

Actually I misled you, it's not the armed populace I have an issue with, your "Old West" analogy is 100% correct.
It's the ridiculous over use of lethal force by the authorities I have "issues" with (shooting people down in the street for objecting to being towed etc.)

 

[Sardukhar]

Actually I misled you, it's not the armed populace I have an issue with, your "Old West" analogy is 100% correct.
It's the ridiculous over use of lethal force by the authorities I have "issues" with (shooting people down in the street for objecting to being towed etc.)

Oh, I don't think I said, and didn't mean to imply, that every night in Night City is a bloodbath. Well, except parts of the Zone and certain boostergang arenas. Sometimes it happens, of course, viz the "Hack Man" story from the corebook, and, yes, the murder and assault rate is much higher than any current or past American city. That's because cyberpunk is supposed to be more dangerous than now.

But a tow company that shoots people who are trying to get their cars, or cops who kill for traffic offenses, is going to wind up getting shot by a brother or mother or whoever. It's not like the cops or tow drivers have lost their minds, after all.

I see it as meaning that unlike now, when you might approach a cop at a traffic stop or a tow driver picking upi your car and start yelling, in the Cyberpunk future, too many people approached and started shooting, and now if they see you coming, they yell for you to show them your hands. If you don't, they shoot.

It's not supposed to be parody, it's supposed to represent danger and desperation.

The handicapped thing? Now that's just parody. And I love it.

 

[Suhiira]

Oh, I don't think I said, and didn't mean to imply, that every night in Night City is a bloodbath.

I owe you an apology, I apparently misunderstood your opening comment because I thought you were implying EXACTLY this.

It's not like the cops or tow drivers have lost their minds, after all.

My sentiments exactly, and again I thought you were implying they were in fact shooting first and not even bothering with the questions afterwards.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Well, you can imagine how dangerous Night City is when they have the 'Body Lotto'.

 

[wisdom000]

I owe you an apology, I apparently misunderstood your opening comment because I thought you were implying EXACTLY this.



My sentiments exactly, and again I thought you were implying they were in fact shooting first and not even bothering with the questions afterwards.

Except he was in fact he was implying that, as the text implies that, which is why I ignore both...

Simply put in a society where everyone is armed at all times and compeltely within their rights to blast away with impunity, there are two outcomes... no one commits crimes, pretty much ever, or everyone commits crimes all the time..

The first is a setting that is no fun to play in, because it's basically all talking, all the time... as everyone is afraid to even open their mouths for fear of getting shot by everyone else, whether there is valid reason or not, because hey, that guys Bob Marley T-shirt was threatening to me... Or the educated minority was far too much of a danger to my priviliged and misplaced view of how the world works to not shoot.

Or you are playing in a world where it is the wild west of the movies, and everyone opens fire on everyone else for the fun of it... Because hey why not, they didn't give us these guns as fashion accessories... or wait, they did, but also because shooty..... everyone walks around in metal gear all the time, because it;s the minimum required to get to work, and while you are working... and really you can sleep in it too provided you lock your concrete doors at night...

I mean seriously sard, if you take everything in the book at face value, and don't weed out the sillier bits, then your world is pretty much unsirvivable by anyone but edgerunners, which means you ARE talking GTA online, with lobbies of thousands...