A Night to Remember trailer in Toussaint?

[mecha_fish]

Fearin' no manner of ghouls, hags and wraiths (instead of fearin' all manner...)

There is a contrast between the witcher and other animals. Wolves are asleep, cows turned in (go to sleep), bats asway (move silently), birds are silent... indicating that the night is not safe. On the other hand, the witcher does not fear the dark and fears no manner of danger.

Deep deep woe (instead of "dee dee ohh")

I don't see the point of "dee dee ohh" here. On the other hand "deep deep woe" fits perfectly and is far more affective. Again, it shows a contrast where the "helpless victims" perceive the witcher as someone who is heartless and brings nothing but woe to his prey. Moreover, it is a Lullabie of Woe so it is appropriate I think.

Some suggested that, but it assumes it refers to the witcher, while I think it refers to the child in the song. So all manner makes more sense in that context. See talk page of the article.

Deep deep woe is a possibility, but it's very unclear in the audio. I'll try to listen a few more times and may be contact the author for clarification. By the way - feel free to join the wiki and make comments in the talk sections there or propose corrections and improvements Any help with the wiki is appreciated.

I agree with deep, deep woe. When I first attempted to transcribe, I couldn't make out the voiceless phonemes but now that the context is given I can recognise where they should be when I listen to the song.

As for all or no, I think she's saying 'all manner of' as that is a common construction in English while 'no manner of' seems jarred and makes the statement seem redundant to the ear. If you argue thematically, I suppose it does make sense, but to my mind 'all' seems more natural linguistically and pragmatically.

 

[Alexius321]

@Gilrond-i-Virdan, @mecha_fish, @Riven-Twain - Guys, you might be right. I might be influenced by the fact that this was how I understood the song when I heard it for the first time. Good songs/poems should be open for interpretation anyways, right?

As I understand it, however, the melody is a lullaby, sung to a (monstrous) child about her doll, and describes all the terrible things the Witcher will do to both the doll and the child, should he find them. For the lines under discussion, I hear: 'He comes; he'll go: Leave naught behind but heartache and woe, deep, deep woe.'

As for the 'no' or 'all', I hear, 'fearing all manner of ghouls hags and wraiths.' I assume the doll is the fearing one.

I never really took it to be an actual lullaby. It is dark and mournful, so it wouldn't make sense. On the other hand, who am I to judge vampire traditions

In my opinion, the story (song) might simply represent an allegory, a reconstruction of the feeling of anxiety. In this sense, there is no child at all, and there is no doll either (regardless of the fact there is one in the trailer).

My dear dolly, Polly, shut your eyes
Lie still, lie silent, utter no cries

Polly and dolly might actually stand for the same thing and they represent a metaphor for the person/ the feelings of the person who sings "the lullaby".


But then again, Polly may stand for the vampire child, and dolly is the child's doll (personified, of course). It is obviously ambiguous, and that's why it's great.

 

[Riven-Twain]

I never really took it to be an actual lullaby. It is dark and mournful, so it wouldn't make sense. On the other hand, who am I to judge vampire traditions

It's certainly not a song calculated to inspire sweet dreams and pleasant sleep. . . . I always considered jolly little tune not as a literal lullaby, but as a vehicle -- rather as how the 'dolly Polly' is merely a pretext -- for warning against the dreadful savagery of heartless, mercenary witchers. (Poor fellows, they're just not very popular.)

 

[Alexius321]

Poor fellows, they're just not very popular

What would a "lowly witcher" know of the things we discuss anyways? They're just killing living things, heartless butchers

No, but seriously, I was blown away when I first heard this song. CDPR really know what they're doing. The trailer is phenomenal as well, and was really phenomenally done. Nothing is explicitly stated, and you have to fill in the missing pieces and make your own story.

I'm really excited for Toussaint, I trust CDPR have prepared something similar and intriguing there as well

 

[Riven-Twain]

I'm really excited for Toussaint, I trust CDPR have prepared something similar and intriguing there as well

Of that I think we may be sure. After all, the REDs are rather talented lads and lasses, and really quite clever.

 

[Krull32]

After all, the REDs are rather talented lads and lasses, and really quite clever

Aye, they always deliver.

 

[Alexius321]

Of that I think we may be sure. After all, the REDs are rather talented lads and lasses, and really quite clever.

Indeed they are. And something tells me they are closely watching for feedback as well

Upon my honour, we shall contest valiantly and nobly, ferment fine wine and enjoy all the magnificence of "the land of fairy tales"

 

[Riven-Twain]

Verily.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@mecha_fish: since it was your reconstruction, and experts here have consensus about "deep deep woe", I'll update the article, and it indeed fits perfectly.

---------- Updated at 11:22 PM ----------

Also, after listening a few more times I agree with @Riven-Twain that it sounds like "heartache and woe", it also fits well with further "deep deep woe".

---------- Updated at 11:24 PM ----------

@Alexius321: And I updated polly to Polly too.

Thanks everyone for your help.

---------- Post merged on 15-05-2016 at 12:00 AM ----------

I never really took it to be an actual lullaby. It is dark and mournful, so it wouldn't make sense. On the other hand, who am I to judge vampire traditions

Even human lullabies can have scary motives (strange, right?), so you'd expect even scarier ones from vampire lullabies

In my opinion, the story (song) might simply represent an allegory

It is used as an allegory in the trailer, definitely, but it still can be a real lullaby / folk song at the same time.

---------- Updated at 12:10 AM ----------

No, but seriously, I was blown away when I first heard this song. CDPR really know what they're doing. The trailer is phenomenal as well, and was really phenomenally done. Nothing is explicitly stated, and you have to fill in the missing pieces and make your own story.

It's amazing that despite being such a short film, they put so much into it. Outstanding work. Their director should be making full length Witcher films.

I'm really excited for Toussaint, I trust CDPR have prepared something similar and intriguing there as well

A pity they still don't plan to release TW3 for Linux, so I'll have to avoid spoilers

 

[Alexius321]

experts here have consensus about "deep deep woe"

Upon my honour, knight-errants are no experts noble lord! Verily, they tolerate no manner of such silly labels

I agree with the "heartache and woe" part. I forgot to mention in in the first post, so I'm glad @Riven-Twain brought it up. But I'll have to add I quite liked the sound of "heartache alone" as well.

And I updated polly to Polly too.

Now about this.. this is quite ambiguous. When I first said it should be in capital letters I was thinking about Miss Polly, since I suppose it is quite an obvious reference to her feeling of anxiety. However, I have updated that post later - we don't necessarily have to treat it as a name since it may be used as an eponym. Polly refers to the child obviously, so we have two possible interpretation of the child now:

First - there is an actual child and there is an actual doll. In this case the narrator speaks to an actual child who is afraid for the doll (personified), just like Polly was. So it may indeed be an eponym, because "the lullaby" instructs all vampire children to be fearful of witchers. Second - there is no child at all and there is no doll either. In this case, the narrator speaks to herself, i.e. she is the child being spoken to and she gives instructions to herself. The child is the narrator herself, the doll is her emotional state and boom - we have a perfect allegory. Here, it can also be an eponym. I have also mentioned this in this post. The only scenario where Polly should obligatorily be written in capital letters would be if the child (in the first case) or the narrator (in the second case) were actually called Polly, but this is highly unlikely and almost certainly not the case.

So, in fact, you can justify either use. I am obviously overanalyzing, and probably very few people would notice this, but it's fun right? It could have stayed polly, so I don't know, act on your better judgement


P. S. Both scenarios are valid interpretations. Of course, it can be a "lullaby" of sorts, but I personally like to view the song as an allegory in a broad sense.

Even human lullabies can have scary motives (strange, right?), so you'd expect even scarier ones from vampire lullabies

Regarding bedtime stories, humans are of course unrivaled in that field as well. Hmm, what would be a good example... - if you don't fall asleep now, the boogeyman will come for you!

Weird indeed

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Upon my honour, knight-errants are no experts noble lord! Verily, they tolerate no manner of such silly labels

;D

 

[Riven-Twain]

First - there is an actual child and there is an actual doll. In this case the narrator speaks to an actual child who is afraid for the doll (personified), just like Polly was. So it may indeed be an eponym, because "the lullaby" instructs all vampire children to be fearful of witchers. Second - there is no child at all and there is no doll either. In this case, the narrator speaks to herself, i.e. she is the child being spoken to and she gives instructions to herself. The child is the narrator herself, the doll is her emotional state and boom - we have a perfect allegory. Here, it can also be an eponym. I have also mentioned this in this post. The only scenario where Polly should obligatorily be written in capital letters would be if the child (in the first case) or the narrator (in the second case) were actually called Polly, but this is highly unlikely and almost certainly not the case.

So, in fact, you can justify either use. I am obviously overanalyzing, and probably very few people would notice this, but it's fun right? It could have stayed polly, so I don't know, act on your better judgement

What fun. Although, if we're not careful, we may wind up causing poor little Polly (whatever she may be) to have an existential crisis -- and that would rather tend to keep her awake.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I'm OK with both variants, but shouldn't eponym still be written with the capital letter even if actual child isn't named that way?

 

[Alexius321]

Spoiler

;D

What fun. Although, if we're not careful, we may wind up causing poor little Polly (whatever she may be) to have an existential crisis -- and that would rather tend to keep her awake.

---------- Updated at 07:53 AM ----------

I'm OK with both variants, but shouldn't eponym still be written with the capital letter even if actual child isn't named that way?

In my opinion, eponyms may be written in lower case, and this particularly applies in this situation. We have a contrast - polly here no longer represents a proper noun (miss Polly), it stands for common nouns (anybody who is like Polly).

In English it is generally accepted that such eponyms are written in capital letters, but I would find it perfectly acceptable to be lowercase.

There are different explanations and stances, and linguists are a rather funny bunch. It is debatable, but I would write it in lowercase, especially in this situation.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

If it's indeed a reference to Miss Polly, then if you compare, the witcher is the horror version of the doctor who brings dread rather than help

 

[Riven-Twain]

I don't know . . . I'm really rather fond of sleep. It's one of my hobbies.

you might write it with capital letters, but in my opinion it should be lowercase. There are different explanations and stances, and linguists are rather a funny bunch. It is debatable, but I would write it in lowercase.

You're quite right, linguists are an absolute riot. . . As to eponyms: I fancy they should be capitalised, since, technically, they're still proper names, although employed in a somewhat peculiar fashion.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Heh, controversial subject it seems. I'll read a bit about it.

---------- Updated at 03:16 AM ----------

At least from the context perspective, I'd say it's better not to capitalize it there if that's supposed to stress that it's not actual child's name. Capitalized form leaves more ambiguity.

---------- Updated at 03:17 AM ----------

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponym#Comparison_table_of_eponym_orthographic_styling

 

[Alexius321]

Heh, controversial subject it seems. I'll read a bit about it.

Beware, it's quite hazardous for one's mental health if they delve too deep into linguistic debates

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponym...raphic_styling

That's about adjectives, names (nouns) are a different kind of beast.

At least from the context perspective, I'd say it's better not to capitalize it there if that's supposed to stress that it's not actual child's name. Capitalized form leaves more ambiguity.

I agree. In my opinion you can use either. Read my answer bellow.

You're quite right, linguists are an absolute riot. . . As to eponyms: I fancy they should be capitalised, since, technically, they're still proper names, although employed in a somewhat peculiar fashion.

It is too broad a topic to be discussed on the forums and it wouldn't be appropriate in this thread, some moderator might appear and spoil the fun

I think one of the problems is that different languages handle written representation quite differently. Generally speaking, in linguistics, spoken language is the king, while written language is not that important.

I'll give you an example related to Polly/polly issue - Goliath. I would find it totally acceptable to write Goliath as goliath (lowercase) when it refers to a person who is huge in size and power. It is no longer a proper noun exactly, it can now stand for any person who is huge in size and power. In English it would be appropriate to use an article also - he was a real goliath. But the problem is that not all languages use articles. So in (some) other languages they would have identical written representation - goliath. And not only that they would, but they actually do. Maybe another good example in English (although not a name of a person) would be a moon or a sun. But again, we have an article in front of them.

To summarize, in English it is generally accepted that such eponyms are indeed written in capital letters, while there are exceptions to the rule as always. For the sake of not confusing somebody with my personal opinions, I will edit the previous post yet again.

As for the "polly" issue, I would personally find it acceptable if it was written in lowercase. The most important element there is that we have to bear in mind that it is a poem, and putting an article there - a polly - would be ridiculous and unacceptable. Also, to quote Dandelion "poetry has its rights... no one should be offended"

 

[Riven-Twain]

Beware, it's quite hazardous for one's mental health if they delve too deep into linguistic debates. . . . It is too broad a topic to be discussed on the forums and it wouldn't be appropriate in this thread, some moderator might appear and spoil the fun

Quite so. Unfortunately, it is my duty to call this discussion back to the topic. However, if desired, we can carry on with these linguistic eccentricities somewhere in the Community sub-forum, if someone wants to post a new thread.

 

[Alexius321]

If it's indeed a reference to Miss Polly, then if you compare, the witcher is the horror version of the doctor who brings dread rather than help

The witcher is actually a filthy, exploitative, bloodsucking (pun intended) capitalist if we consider this version

Spoiler

Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick, sick.
So she phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick.
The doctor came with his bag and hat,
And knocked at the door with a rat tat tat.

He looked at the dolly and shook his head,
And said "Miss Polly put her straight to bed".
He wrote a pad for a pill, pill, pill.
I'll be back in the morning with my bill, bill, bill.

No wonder people dislike witchers

Quite so. Unfortunately, it is my duty to call this discussion back to the topic. However, if desired, we can carry on with these linguistic eccentricities somewhere in the Community sub-forum, if someone wants to post a new thread.

Well this came out of the blue
But we actually are on-topic since we are discussing "the polly" reference in the trailer/song and how we should handle it

As for the chat on the linguistic matters, this could work. I would be very happy to participate. What would be the name of the thread "Everything linguistics"?