A serious discussion on Orion's continuity and consequence of our choices

[grenadiermolo]

Alright, we got five distinct endings that lead to very different world states.

The big question is how are we gonna start the next game when we have a world ranging from Saburo making peace with Militech, Yorinobu chased off with Militech clawing Night City for NUSA or incoming all out Corpo war between Arasaka and Militech?

Are we gonna have something like Mass Effect where we import previous choices, will CDPR chose a canon ending or will they pull a Veilguard where nothing we did before matters?

I know that Orion is far away enough that it's plot is not fully written yet, so I want honest suggestions on how we can integrate both games considering all the variables that can diverge between them.

Some common points to all world states:
-Panam is alive;
-Judy is alive;
-Kerry is alive;
-Vik is alive;
-Misty is alive;
-Alt is at large;
-Blackwall is weakening;
-Rogue's son is alive;
-Lucy Kushinada is alive on the moon;
-Every major fixer is fine.

Assuming mission and gig failures are not canon:
-President Myers is alive;
-River is alive and an arms dealer.

Will any of those characters return? Not a clue.

Spoiler: My opinion

My personal opinion is that they should canonize DFtR to reduce the possible endings to two and work up from there. Mainly because that ensures the Fifth Corporate War happens.

I think V and Johnny will return in two different roles depending on wheter you chose Sun or Temperance.

If we chose the Sun background then V pulled of the Heist but dissappeared as some sort of legend and we will meet Johnny as an engram beyond the Blackwall.

If we chose Temperance we meet Johnny in V's body while V's engram takes Johnny's role beyond the Blackwall.

My humble opinion is that V cannot comeback if they lived at the end of CP2077 because that defeats the weight of their terminal condition.

On the other hand V as an engram can start from a fresh point if they want their return in the sequel.

Anyhow, please be constructive and coherent despite the game being huge and hard to fully remember.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Just my opinion, but I'm fine with whatever they want to do. The sole exception, and it will really disappoint me, is making an ending (or two) canon.
What people who picked up one of other endings would have to do?
Pretending the decision they made and the events tied to this decision never happened?
Terrible... It's the worst idea ever

If for some reason, it's too difficult to adress every single ending from Cyberpunk 2077 into Cyberpunk 2, I rather prefer them to write a totally new, independant and unrelated story for Cyberpunk 2. Cyberpunk 2077 and V's story would simply be one story in the Cyberpunk universe, pretty much the same as all Cyberpunk stories.

 

[Taril]

The cleanest thing to do would be to put enough distance between 2077 and Orion that events in 2077 don't appear.

Be it via time (The Cyberpunk IP has quite significant time skips between iterations), or location (Which would be a first given the IP's focus on Night City).

Since given the nature of a story driven game, it's important to keep 2077's choices meaningful. So making any particular choices canon is undesirable.

Meanwhile, in terms of game development resources, incorporating all the different choices would take up a lot of time and work to include (On top of Orion wanting to add its own choices and branching narratives)

Also, the general theme of the Cyberpunk universe lends itself to a general reset. Part of its dystopian setting is that nothing anyone does matters. Which is actually shown within 2077 itself. We see from Johnny's memories that he literally nuked Arasaka Tower in the year 2020. Yet by 2077 it's as if it never happened. Arasaka is still one of the most dominant corpos in Night City, with a very strong foothold. While Johnny and co are just a footnote in the annals of history, only a memory of those who participated in such things at the time.

So it would not be unusual or out of place to have everything return to "Normal". Arasaka and Millitech being rivals once again, with corpo war brewing. Saburo/Yorinobu being replaced by some other corpo leader who managed to usurp control of the company somehow. The events of Dog Town being a distant memory with Myers and Hansen being long gone. Delamain replaced by a new, more stable AI for taxis (If we continue to the trend of Cyberpunk's advertising, a sexy waifu replacement would be fitting) etc.

Basically, a hard reset of progress because dystopia is gonna dystope.

 

[grenadiermolo]

The cleanest thing to do would be to put enough distance between 2077 and Orion that events in 2077 don't appear.

Be it via time (The Cyberpunk IP has quite significant time skips between iterations), or location (Which would be a first given the IP's focus on Night City).

Since given the nature of a story driven game, it's important to keep 2077's choices meaningful. So making any particular choices canon is undesirable.

Meanwhile, in terms of game development resources, incorporating all the different choices would take up a lot of time and work to include (On top of Orion wanting to add its own choices and branching narratives)

Also, the general theme of the Cyberpunk universe lends itself to a general reset. Part of its dystopian setting is that nothing anyone does matters. Which is actually shown within 2077 itself. We see from Johnny's memories that he literally nuked Arasaka Tower in the year 2020. Yet by 2077 it's as if it never happened. Arasaka is still one of the most dominant corpos in Night City, with a very strong foothold. While Johnny and co are just a footnote in the annals of history, only a memory of those who participated in such things at the time.

So it would not be unusual or out of place to have everything return to "Normal". Arasaka and Millitech being rivals once again, with corpo war brewing. Saburo/Yorinobu being replaced by some other corpo leader who managed to usurp control of the company somehow. The events of Dog Town being a distant memory with Myers and Hansen being long gone. Delamain replaced by a new, more stable AI for taxis (If we continue to the trend of Cyberpunk's advertising, a sexy waifu replacement would be fitting) etc.

Basically, a hard reset of progress because dystopia is gonna dystope.

That's kind of the Veilguard approach I was hoping they avoided.

I know the next story will take place after a time skip but handwaving why stuff happens regardless of player choice is a bummer for me.

I am unfamiliar with CDPR's multigame approach, I know Bethesda picks a canon ending while BioWare until Veilguard tried to handle multiple world states to some extent.

I'll respect whatever decision they make but I sincerely hope we can see V and Johnny in Orion according to our choices.

 

[Taril]

I am unfamiliar with CDPR's multigame approach

Well, so far we only have the Witcher trilogy to go off. Which of course, will be interlinked because it's a literal trilogy based around Geralt's story.

That said, I do believe there was some things made canon throughout the trilogy and of course W4 is predicated on Ciri living like a Witcher which is only one of multiple endings to W3 (We'll see eventually what they do about some other aspects like who won the war and who assassinated who).

But in the case of Cyberpunk, it hasn't been noted that it would be a particular series of games following a singular story. It's just another game in the same IP, not a duology or trilogy. Which might cause them to be a bit more loosey goosey with making stuff canon.

I sincerely hope we can see V and Johnny in Orion according to our choices.

Personally, I don't.

As much as I liked V, I'm satified that their story ended with CP2077. Most of the endings for the game are definite for V (While the singular one that has some slight chance of V being able to continue on is predicated on making the entire story meaningless by way of ignoring the highly limited methods of survival with extreme drawbacks and deus ex machina'ing a perfect cure out of nowhere)

Johnny... Might pop up again in Orion, given his existence as an engram (I'm not sure if Temperance necessarily involves deleting Johnny's engram as part of the process or if it just copies him across - At the very least, it wouldn't be shocking if Alt made a copy of his engram at some point and created an AI Johnny due to whatever vestiges of actual Alt may reside within AI Alt) as well as Keanu's desire to reprise his role.

It would be easy to ensure that a version of Johnny that appears isn't linked to the construct that was mixed with V's mind, so that he had no experience of 2077 and thus isn't making any references to things that happened during V's story.

That's kind of the Veilguard approach I was hoping they avoided.

Aye, but that's the thing with having choices and games with sequels.

Either choices are limited so that results can be easily translated into sequels. Or choices are more varied at the cost of it being much less probable you can incorporate them into sequels.

Cyberpunk at least has it as an on brand theme for things to go nowhere. Like, it's message is all about how no matter what you do, you're just going to be ground into the dust by corpo boots.

Now, it's not impossible for CDPR to get amitious and actually try to incorporate the various choices made in 2077, giving us save import (Or choice checklist on game start). It's just it would be very ambitious, especially with some of the choices with larger disparities.

 

[grenadiermolo]

Well, so far we only have the Witcher trilogy to go off. Which of course, will be interlinked because it's a literal trilogy based around Geralt's story.

That said, I do believe there was some things made canon throughout the trilogy and of course W4 is predicated on Ciri living like a Witcher which is only one of multiple endings to W3 (We'll see eventually what they do about some other aspects like who won the war and who assassinated who).

But in the case of Cyberpunk, it hasn't been noted that it would be a particular series of games following a singular story. It's just another game in the same IP, not a duology or trilogy. Which might cause them to be a bit more loosey goosey with making stuff canon.

Personally, I don't.

As much as I liked V, I'm satified that their story ended with CP2077. Most of the endings for the game are definite for V (While the singular one that has some slight chance of V being able to continue on is predicated on making the entire story meaningless by way of ignoring the highly limited methods of survival with extreme drawbacks and deus ex machina'ing a perfect cure out of nowhere)

Johnny... Might pop up again in Orion, given his existence as an engram (I'm not sure if Temperance necessarily involves deleting Johnny's engram as part of the process or if it just copies him across - At the very least, it wouldn't be shocking if Alt made a copy of his engram at some point and created an AI Johnny due to whatever vestiges of actual Alt may reside within AI Alt) as well as Keanu's desire to reprise his role.

It would be easy to ensure that a version of Johnny that appears isn't linked to the construct that was mixed with V's mind, so that he had no experience of 2077 and thus isn't making any references to things that happened during V's story.


Aye, but that's the thing with having choices and games with sequels.

Either choices are limited so that results can be easily translated into sequels. Or choices are more varied at the cost of it being much less probable you can incorporate them into sequels.

Cyberpunk at least has it as an on brand theme for things to go nowhere. Like, it's message is all about how no matter what you do, you're just going to be ground into the dust by corpo boots.

Now, it's not impossible for CDPR to get amitious and actually try to incorporate the various choices made in 2077, giving us save import (Or choice checklist on game start). It's just it would be very ambitious, especially with some of the choices with larger disparities.

Mike Pondsmith revealed that Rogue had Johnny's son so the character will be involved somehow.

Temperance DFtR is my canon choice because it lets Johnny live a full life while V gets the chance to return as an engram who can influence the plot of Orion more deeply than a passing reference.

My favorite outcome would be for V to get downloaded into a new body thus justifying their return as a playable character with appearance and all attributes reset.

Many disagree that V should return but every ending suggests their mind has been copied by some party wheter is Alt, Arasaka or the NUSA.

Heck, it would be cool as hell if the new beggining choices are Corpo AI (Arasaka), Rogue AI (Alt) or Agent AI (NUSA) and they result in a longer prologue than we got in CP2077.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

That said, I do believe there was some things made canon throughout the trilogy and of course W4 is predicated on Ciri living like a Witcher which is only one of multiple endings to W3 (We'll see eventually what they do about some other aspects like who won the war and who assassinated who).

Yes, Ciri ends being a witcher (seems mandatory in a Witcher game afterall), but they already said they will address all the TW3's ending in TW4. So they is no "canon ending" in The Witcher 3. It's just a guess, but it could be as in Cyberpunk in which ends being a merc no matter what lifepath you picked up.

Heck, it would be cool as hell if the new beggining choices are Corpo AI (Arasaka), Rogue AI (Alt) or Agent AI (NUSA) and they result in a longer prologue than we got in CP2077.

Meh... It seems very cheap writing to me
I'd rather prefer another story which is not revolving around engram again, there is so much more to discover in the Cyberpunk universe.

 

[Taril]

Yes, Ciri ends being a witcher (seems mandatory in a Witcher game afterall)

Well... There's always the possibility of... Not having Ciri as the protagonist?

Like, yes, the Witcher books are based around Geralt, Ciri and Yenefer... But that doesn't mean they're the ONLY characters that can exist in the universe.

Could have introduced some completely new Witcher to explore over the course of a trilogy. Which would provide a new perspective and circle of primary characters. Honestly, this is what I thought they were doing when they did the reveal of the new trilogy with the Lynx Medallion. Exploring a new Witcher from a different school. Only to later find out it's just going to be Ciri.

Also, it would have stopped all the panty twisting that is going on in regards to the "Witcher" game protagonist not being an actual Witcher... Since while Ciri acts like a Witcher, she isn't actually one due to getting her power from her Elder Blood rather than from the Trial of the Grasses - Which also impacts her abilities too. She can't use Signs nor Poisons. Nor does she have heightened speed or senses (She can teleport to make up for her speed. But lack of other senses means no monster tracking)

I mean, it'd still have some complaints from those who are adamant about the Witcher series being specifically about Geralt as THE Witcher... But at least it'd be about A Witcher.

It's just a guess, but it could be as in Cyberpunk in which ends being a merc no matter what lifepath you picked up.

Which kind of feels like the same sort of cop-out as writing 2077's endings to converge on a V who's all fine and dandy and cured for a reprisal in Orion, shoehorning players into a single outcome irreverant of what they actually picked.

It's a disrespect to the player choice of choosing an ending where Ciri explicitly doesn't follow the Witcher lifestyle. (Not to mention, the ending where she does follow the Witcher lifestyle is the hardest one to actually acheive, with a plethora of requirements throughout the entirety of W3's story - Meaning that it devalues the effort a player put into obtaining this specific ending if the result is the same no matter what)

Such a thing is basically like making a particular ending canon. Just with the added deus ex machina to force all the other shaped pegs into the square hole.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Well... There's always the possibility of... Not having Ciri as the protagonist?

Like, yes, the Witcher books are based around Geralt, Ciri and Yenefer... But that doesn't mean they're the ONLY characters that can exist in the universe.

Could have introduced some completely new Witcher to explore over the course of a trilogy. Which would provide a new perspective and circle of primary characters. Honestly, this is what I thought they were doing when they did the reveal of the new trilogy with the Lynx Medallion. Exploring a new Witcher from a different school. Only to later find out it's just going to be Ciri.

Also, it would have stopped all the panty twisting that is going on in regards to the "Witcher" game protagonist not being an actual Witcher... Since while Ciri acts like a Witcher, she isn't actually one due to getting her power from her Elder Blood rather than from the Trial of the Grasses - Which also impacts her abilities too. She can't use Signs nor Poisons. Nor does she have heightened speed or senses (She can teleport to make up for her speed. But lack of other senses means no monster tracking)

I mean, it'd still have some complaints from those who are adamant about the Witcher series being specifically about Geralt as THE Witcher... But at least it'd be about A Witcher.

Not my point...
CDPR decided (even before TW3 release) Ciri will be the next protagonist, decided she will be a witcher (she underwent the trial of grasses, so she will be a "true" witcher in TW4) and decided to address all TW3 endings.
Meaning they didn't choose the "easier" path, to make one ending canon, but rather merge all endings. Which is fine to me.

As long as CDPR do the same in Cyberpunk (i.e not making any ending as canon) it's fine whatever if they decide to bring back V or introduce a new protagonist, it's fine to me also. I'd rather prefer a new protagonist, but if they decide to bring back V, well... I don't mind (as long as it's well done. But only time will tell).

 

[grenadiermolo]

Not my point...
CDPR decided (even before TW3 release) Ciri will be the next protagonist, decided she will be a witcher (she underwent the trial of grasses, so she will be a "true" witcher in TW4) and decided to address all TW3 endings.
Meaning they didn't choose the "easier" path, to make one ending canon, but rather merge all endings. Which is fine to me.

As long as CDPR do the same in Cyberpunk (i.e not making any ending as canon) it's fine whatever if they decide to bring back V or introduce a new protagonist, it's fine to me also. I'd rather prefer a new protagonist, but if they decide to bring back V, well... I don't mind (as long as it's well done. But only time will tell).

To me it sucks that Judy and Panam ditch you in the Sun ending because they can't stand V becoming a gigachad legend.

That's why I pick Temperance in DFtR because I rather end the relationship on my terms than getting dumped.

Jokes aside, V breaking off all relationships at the end of CP 2077 (I know Kerry and River remain in the Sun but V croaks anyway) is a good indicator that they are prone to return without any hangups from the first game.

I am all for having a new story but despite the video game being based on a tabletop, we need a strong point of why a random merc becomes a legend and does all kinds of awesome stuff.

People who played CP2077 need an emotional investment in the sequel and V in a new body seems the most logical choice.

Because of their new body adjusting to their mind their attributes, skills and perks are reset and because they have been dead for a decade nobody believes they are the legend that stormed Arasaka tower besides Vik and Misty.

Orion also probably starts in Chicago which makes V's new predictment even more chaotic with them having no memory of how they got there.

Also it would funny as hell if Engram V got to meet old Fixer V from the Tower ending and the latter is really grumpy despite being rich.

In any case, I think we are playing V again in a new body.

Back to the topic I think the following choices will be given during character creation:

-Did you make a deal with NUSA?
-Did you make a deal with Arasaka?
-Did you attack Arasaka Tower with the help of a Nomad Clan?
-Did you attack Arasaka Tower with the help of a seasoned Merc?
-Did you storm Arasaka Tower by yourself?
-Did you sacrifice yourself for a friend or lived to fly into the Sun?

Those six choices can lead to different world states that have differing dialogue and lore here and there with only Johnny and V appearing in different places for each of them.

The general story of the next game could go the Veilguard route and forget most of our choices because character who can croak or ghost will not return but those six ending choices would be pivotal to respect player choice.

 

[Dunaedine]

To me, if the story is after 2077, using a trickery like playing way latter to avoid to deal with the different endings is way more terrible, even with a new character. It would means that V didn't matter at all. So, if the story is after 2077, CDPR have to select a canon ending, or to find a way to acknoweldge the impacts of the all the possible endings.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

To me, if the story is after 2077, using a trickery like playing way latter to avoid to deal with the different endings is way more terrible, even with a new character. It would means that V didn't matter at all. So, if the story is after 2077, CDPR have to select a canon ending, or to find a way to acknoweldge the impacts of the all the possible endings.

To be fair, in the grand scheme of Cyberpunk world, all the endings should have very little to no impact. V's story will be just as Johnny's or David's, one story in the Cyberpunk universe which overall never changes.
In my opinion, skipping enough time is really the way to go and it fit perfectly how TTRPGs did before.

In the end, V will likely be remembered as a true legend among mercs and those who know... A legend who was involved in big events in 2077 and also, like M. Blackhand, with an unknown fate. Is V alive? Is V dead? That's what make true NC legends!

 

[grenadiermolo]

To be fair, in the grand scheme of Cyberpunk world, all the endings should have very little to no impact. V's story will be just as Johnny's or David's, one story in the Cyberpunk universe which overall never changes.
In my opinion, skipping enough time is really the way to go and it fit perfectly how TTRPGs did before.

In the end, V will likely be remembered as a true legend among mercs and those who know... A legend who was involved in big events in 2077 and also, like M. Blackhand, with an unknown fate. Is V alive? Is V dead? That's what make true NC legends!

Yeah, but even then they have an easy way of integrating our choices by changing character commentary depending on the ending you picked.

 

[Sardukhar]

To be fair, in the grand scheme of Cyberpunk world, all the endings should have very little to no impact. V's story will be just as Johnny's or David's, one story in the Cyberpunk universe which overall never changes.
In my opinion, skipping enough time is really the way to go and it fit perfectly how TTRPGs did before.

In the end, V will likely be remembered as a true legend among mercs and those who know... A legend who was involved in big events in 2077 and also, like M. Blackhand, with an unknown fate. Is V alive? Is V dead? That's what make true NC legends!

I don't disagree with the (probable) portrayal of V, but I would disagree that the Cpunk universe doesn't change. Both in-genre (Gibsons trilogy and Walter Jon Williams Hardwired universe for example) and in TTRPG lore, there are plenty of changes. Corp power, nation state power, individual changes and effects are plentiful.

I would rather say that the overall theme of the Cyberpunk story setting - high tech and low life - can only change so much, before it's not Cyberpunk any more.

But the Cpunk world, oh yeah, that changes a lot. Sometimes, if you're a Highrider or Free AI for example, it might even improve!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I don't disagree with the (probable) portrayal of V, but I would disagree that the Cpunk universe doesn't change. Both in-genre (Gibsons trilogy and Walter Jon Williams Hardwired universe for example) and in TTRPG lore, there are plenty of changes. Corp power, nation state power, individual changes and effects are plentiful.

I would rather say that the overall theme of the Cyberpunk story setting - high tech and low life - can only change so much, before it's not Cyberpunk any more.

But the Cpunk world, oh yeah, that changes a lot. Sometimes, if you're a Highrider or Free AI for example, it might even improve!

Of course, but in the big picture it does not, not really. No matter what happen or how long time passes, corporations will still lead the world and will keep milking the masses in the name of profits. Wealthy and powerful people will still have everything while the large majority of people will still have almot nothing. Gangs will still run violence in the dark alleys, under the cover of the mega building's shadow.
So yes, the actors might and will likely change (corporations, peoples, gangs,...), but overall, the world will remains as it was...

It something which come often on the table in our convo with Johnny. To quote Johnny : "Zapper-dumples and filth. In some ways, Night City never changes. Arasaka's still a despotic machine and the world's on a collision course with chaos".

 

[wilczajagoda]

My guess for the future worldstate would be the devil ending, simply because it's the only one where the relic project becomes a full success, and it's such an interesting concept to waste. The setting already has human psyche being digitalized, but now there is also possibility for the reverse to occur, with Saburo coming back (and who knows if Hanako didn't rewrite her father before that happened). Which also could tie into the reveal from PL, that the AIs want to in a way possess humans, but are too limited by the current technology for that to happen.

Alternatively, the tower ending could also work, since Militech ends up with whatever knowledge on the relic they manage to extract from V.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Alternatively, the tower ending could also work, since Militech ends up with whatever knowledge on the relic they manage to extract from V.

Don't know much about this ending while I never played it, so I might be wrong... But no matter what they managed to learn from V, I think Militech would still miss of the most important part of the whole thing which is Soul Killer, the only way in date to tranform and copy an human psyche into digital data.

 

[wilczajagoda]

They'd need Soulkiller if they wanted to create engrams, but Militech has been trying to weaponize rogue AIs for decades, so perhaps they'd try with an AI instead.

I've played both sides of PL, Killing Moon first and Cynosure second, and tbh the latter felt like the canon path. All the comparisons the main game makes about cyberspace being hell, they are made real there. But I don't think V would sell out So Mi in that path and that's why the devil ending is my first guess.