About typography in the Witcher games

[adridu59]

About typography in the Witcher games

Hello all,

I haven't played Witcher 1. When I played Witcher 2, it was before I had an interest in type and would get on designing my own.

I just stumbled across a video of The Witcher where I noticed that the type uses Tobias Frere-Jones' Griffith Gothic which you can see here big in red and by scrolling down too. It's an unusual type choice, with sharp cuts – I'm surprised to see it being used and it denotes a sheer creativity.

For Witcher 3 they are using Parachute's DIN Text, it's an independant type foundry – althrough DIN itself gets a lot of exposure (esp. FF DIN which sells a lot). While it's less creative choice than on Witcher 2, I think it's great esp. since Parachute made its own take on DIN, they didn’t just mimic it. Dev team, keep on the type creativity. We all use it, but we often overlook it as a design part.

That's all. :victory:

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

Man,

I'm a typography aficionado. There's a thread on UI aesthetics where I've briefly talked about typography. I encourage you to share your take on how typography is fitting in with the rest of the UI. I don't think it is. It's not that I dislike the font choice - although it's perhaps a bit too expanded - it's just that the rest of the UI doesn't follow aesthetically,

I'd love if REDs would use Open Type features such old style numerals, true small caps, ligatures, etc in TW3. It'd be fitting, I tell you. Hyphenation would also be a welcome addition.

Love FF, by the way. Along with Adobe Minion, FF Absara is one my all time favourite. Incidentally, Robert Bringhurst uses the pair in his seminal «The Elements of Typographic Style».

 

[adridu59]

Wow, when I posted that I didn't think it would interest anyone!

Man,

I'm a typography aficionado. There's a thread on UI aesthetics where I've briefly talked about typography. I encourage you to share your take on how typography is fitting in with the rest of the UI. I don't think it is. It's not that I dislike the font choice - although it's perhaps a bit too expanded - it's just that the rest of the UI doesn't follow aesthetically,

Well... I'm sorry but I don't share any of your criticism, I really dig the new UI. Anyways you always have constructive criticism which yields good threads; this is important – I'm mean it's important to get proper feedback to the development team since they read what happens here. The climbing path thingy clearly demonstrated that – when people asked if you would remove the climb path highlight the devs were like they didn't think about it at all, this is why I think that largescale feedback is always a plus.

I'd love if REDs would use Open Type features such old style numerals, true small caps, ligatures, etc in TW3. It'd be fitting, I tell you. Hyphenation would also be a welcome addition.

It's not really relevant esp. with the choice of DIN Text. Besides it's a UI, these are not meant for a user interface which must stay clear and clean and whatever. Oldstyle numerals would – even if they did fit – make it too old looking imo, kind of like their choice of Garamond in TW1. Even if the game itself is in a medieval setting, using a medieval serif in it really feels inappropriate. Because again it's a UI, a very different object than a classic document which warrants a clean sans.

Love FF, by the way. Along with Adobe Minion, FF Absara is one my all time favourite. Incidentally, Robert Bringhurst uses the pair in his seminal «The Elements of Typographic Style».

Yeah, a lot of designers were not happy with the sell-out to Monotype in June but they responded they were still doing the same business but would get way more exposure from Monotype and eventually and more financial inertia (not that they were lacking in this department if you ask me). FF Absara is pretty cool, it reminds me of FF Scala but it's a sharp serif face – made by a French I see also.
Adobe Minion is way overexposed, I haven't read Bringhurst' book but on Practical Typography it's said that Minion is not necessarily to be chosen for the fact that it's a default font. But it's a clean yet faithful to original Renaissance types, a good Slimbach work. I use Utopia also from that same designer.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

Wow, when I posted that I didn't think it would interest anyone!



Well... I'm sorry but I don't share any of your criticism, I really dig the new UI. Anyways you always have constructive criticism which yields good threads; this is important – I'm mean it's important to get proper feedback to the development team since they read what happens here. The climbing path thingy clearly demonstrated that – when people asked if you would remove the climb path highlight the devs were like they didn't think about it at all, this is why I think that largescale feedback is always a plus.



It's not really relevant esp. with the choice of DIN Text. Besides it's a UI, these are not meant for a user interface which must stay clear and clean and whatever. Oldstyle numerals would – even if they did fit – make it too old looking imo, kind of like their choice of Garamond in TW1. Even if the game itself is in a medieval setting, using a medieval serif in it really feels inappropriate. Because again it's a UI, a very different object than a classic document which warrants a clean sans.



Yeah, a lot of designers were not happy with the sell-out to Monotype in June but they responded they were still doing the same business but would get way more exposure from Monotype and eventually and more financial inertia (not that they were lacking in this department if you ask me). FF Absara is pretty cool, it reminds me of FF Scala but it's a sharp serif face – made by a French I see also.
Adobe Minion is way overexposed, I haven't read Bringhurst' book but on Practical Typography it's said that Minion is not necessarily to be chosen for the fact that it's a default font. But it's a clean yet faithful to original Renaissance types, a good Slimbach work. I use Utopia also from that same designer.

I actually meant FF Scala, which is what Bringhurst pairs with Minion! Though I find FF Absara pleasant, FF Scala reigns supreme. Its italics are simply phenomenal!
Sorry, my bad.

My comments about numerals, ligatures and what not should have been contextualized. I am not expecting then to use DIN outside of the UI. I meant in-game text such in-game books, boards, etc. Here Open Type features make complete sense. Should have been more precise. As for MInion being overused, I supposed you can say that. But it's a testament to its glory that it has withstood such intensive use without having become a visual cliché, To me it still feels fresh.

I'm not going to go over the UI problems, except to say it's all over the place, messy, unfocused, unstructured, lacking any sort of visual hierarchy.

You should definitely read Bringhurst's. Another favourite of mine is James Felici's «The Complete Manual of Typography».

 

[Mataresa]

This all sounds so interesting and I would like to get into it. But I have no clue what you guys are talking about. I wish you would supplement your arguments with some imagery.
I mean I know what serifs are and some of the others, but some examples would be apprechiated and make it easier for me (and maybe other) idiots to get into. ^^

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

This all sounds so interesting and I would like to get into it. But I have no clue what you guys are talking about. I wish you would supplement your arguments with some imagery.
I mean I know what serifs are and some of the others, but some examples would be apprechiated and make it easier for me (and maybe other) idiots to get into. ^^

A quote from Bringhurst set in FF Scala. Notice how his name uses both capitals and small caps. True small caps are not as conspicuous as capitals, they blend in much better with copy, so they're often used mid sentence in acronyms, for example. FF Scala is a thing of beauty.




Paragraph set in Adobe Minion, which in my opinion features the best looking «a» on the planet. Hyphenation - the use of hyphens to break a word between syllables across two consecutive sentences - helps keep spacing more even and harmonious.



Notice Scala's old style numerals, which appear at different positions and heights, verusus modern style where all numerals appear the same size and position.



Ligatures are pairs or trios of characters whose forms are either thought to clash or be better if made continuous, so they 're joined into a single «character».

 

[Mataresa]

Thank you for all the clarifications!
I must admit, I can't remember, how it looks in The Witcher. Can you give an example where you felt it should be changed or it would fit better with a screenshot?

 

[volsung]

There's a game called Type Rider, where you play with the history of typography.

I don't know anything about this topic but the cultural implications are interesting.

 

[MrG721]

You should definitely read Bringhurst's. Another favourite of mine is James Felici's «The Complete Manual of Typography».

Thank you for linking these books

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

By the way, what script is used in the Witcher 2? Does it have a name / related language? I mean this one:

 

[dragonbird]

By the way, what script is used in the Witcher 2? Does it have a name / related language? I mean this one:

It's Old Church Slavonic - http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ocslavonic.htm

I think @Guy N'wah is our resident expert, it came up in a recent discussion about sword runes. (And before you ask, the curvy runes on some swords are in the Glagolitic alphabet) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_alphabet )

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

It's Old Church Slavonic - http://www.omniglot.com/writing/ocslavonic.htm

I think it's styled after it, but it's not the same. Some letters are reversed and so on.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Here is another example (this indeed looks like Glagolitic):

UPDATE: Hehe. The language on the poster is actually English (on top it says "WANTED").

UPDATE2: Next phrase: "thousand orens".

For small script I'll get a better screenshot, this one distorts the letters.

UPDATE3: Small script (it's distorted even in the game):

UPDATE 4: last phrase: "dead or alive".

Then it's hard to decipher. Something like: "nreferablz leal".

UPDATE 5: I think it's "preferably dead".

 

[GuyNwah]

I think it's styled after it, but it's not the same. Some letters are reversed and so on.

The only images I have gone through and read out were the sword runes from TW3. Those were forward, well-rendered Square Glagolitic, and meaningful. (They're verses of the Lord's Prayer: "And forgive us our debts / [As we forgive our] debtors". I do not presume to say what relation this has to themes of the game.)

I don't claim to know Old Church Slavonic. I think only scholars do. But modern Slavic languages are some of them not far from it, and this makes for translatability.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@Guy N'wah: Yes indeed. Glagolitic works. See my decoding of the poster above.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Decoded result of the Iorveth's poster:

WANTED
Thousand orens
Dead or alive, preferably dead.

It doesn't match what is shown when you look at the poster in the game by the way, which is:

Wanted Dead or Alive!
The elf Iorveth
Exceptionally ruthless commander of a unit of Squirrels

 

[Veleda.980]

I'm not a font nerd, but I loathe the trend of using modern sans serif fonts for fantasy RPG's. It's ugly and cold, like reading a cereal box. The writing in the world is beautiful and full of flourishes- even if it looks like Armenian, whatever- but the UI text is plain and uninviting. That's a jarring contrast.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

I'm not a font nerd, but I loathe the trend of using modern sans serif fonts for fantasy RPG's. It's ugly and cold, like reading a cereal box. The writing in the world is beautiful and full of flourishes- even if it looks like Armenian, whatever- but the UI text is plain and uninviting. That's a jarring contrast.

I strongly disagree.

Sans serif can be as beautiful and as evocative as serif type. The category called Humanist Sans Serif tends to defy all the epitaphs you've used. The classic Gill Sans, for example, is simply wonderful. Its proportions are exceedingly harmonious. There's nothing cold about it. With regard to TW3, contrast is often the best way to bring emphasis. Sans serif DIN - though I might prefer a slightly less expanded version - has a lot of composure, doesn't call attention upon itself and highlights the game's visuals.

Close to perfect font choice, if you ask me - talking about this shot:

 

[Garrison72]

I agree with Veleda. Some style to the font seems warranted, but modern games usually go with the most boring type. There was a nice altered font mod for TW2 but I can't seem to find it anymore. Sans serif just doesn't look like it belongs in The Witcher. Here's an example that's both legible and has a nice look:

 

[Veleda.980]

I strongly disagree.

Sans serif can be as beautiful and as evocative as serif type. The category called Humanist Sans Serif tends to defy all the epitaphs you've used. The classic Gill Sans, for example, is simply wonderful. Its proportions are exceedingly harmonious. There's nothing cold about it. With regard to TW3, contrast is often the best way to bring emphasis. Sans serif DIN - though I might prefer a slightly less expanded version - has a lot of composure, doesn't call attention upon itself and highlights the game's visuals.

And we're going to continue to disagree. I think Gill Sans is ugly, too. The font could help me to feel more a part of the world, or else remind me that I"m playing a video game. The fonts in Witcher 2 and the Witcher 3 demos do the latter.