About typography in the Witcher games

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

And we're going to continue to disagree. I think Gill Sans is ugly, too. The font could help me to feel more a part of the world, or else remind me that I"m playing a video game. The fonts in Witcher 2 and the Witcher 3 demos do the latter.

I mean....sure. You find it ugly. But I've got to have some context here. Which Sans Serif categories or specific fonts do you like?

I agree with Veleda. Some style to the font seems warranted, but modern games usually go with the most boring type. There was a nice altered font mod for TW2 but I can't seem to find it anymore. Sans serif just doesn't look like it belongs in The Witcher. Here's an example that's both legible and has a nice look:

slimgrin , are you sure this is the font? «Inventory» reminds me of that 80's game, Lords of Midnight.

 

[Veleda.980]

I mean....sure. You find it ugly. But I've got to have some context here. Which Sans Serif categories or specific fonts do you like?

In this context, none of them. It looks modern hence inappropriate to this sort of game.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

In this context, none of them. It looks modern hence inappropriate to this sort of game.

I thought so.
But you said Gill Sans was ugly. So, in more general terms, which Sans do you like?

 

[HellKnightX88]

Comic Sans best Sans!

Seriously though I'm no expert but I think the fonts used in the games so far worked quite well.

 

[adridu59]

The category called Humanist Sans Serif tends to defy all the epitaphs you've used. The classic Gill Sans, for example, is simply wonderful. Its proportions are exceedingly harmonious.

I wouldn't call it harmonious. Gill Sans has a lot of quirks which is the whole point of humanistic designs: being less mechanical, more organic & humanistic. Oddly enough it also was the road font of Eastern Germany. While they were ahead of their time in choosing a humanistic font, I don't think that Gill Sans is quite right for road signage, mainly due to its closed forms.

Anyways, it was quite revolutionary at the time. It became a typical British font (just like the Underground alphabet, Johnstorn), and Rolls Royce uses it as their marketing brand font.

Sans serif DIN - though I might prefer a slightly less expanded version

It's fine if you ask me, for a UI font it's just right.

Seriously though I'm no expert but I think the fonts used in the games so far worked quite well.

Agreed. Like I said a UI is a modern invention that appeals for an open Sans face, considering it differently is a mistake in my opinion. Parachute's DIN is resolutely modern but also takes a simple, vintage approach. Its inspiration, Germany's DIN 1451 road font originally came from the Rail alphabet drawn on a geometric grid.
Trains were the first time people started to think about signage fonts for largescale/industrial uses. It all started with very geometric designs (which a lot of countries around the World are still stuck with) and modern fonts are simple, open humanistic design. UK's Transport font was a precursor in this domain and dates from 1957. A lot of countries in Europe use it too, e.g. Spain and Italy use an Ultra-Bold version of it (which is obviously bad for signage but who knows why they made this variant).

And we're going to continue to disagree. I think Gill Sans is ugly, too. The font could help me to feel more a part of the world, or else remind me that I"m playing a video game. The fonts in Witcher 2 and the Witcher 3 demos do the latter.

A UI is not a part of the World, it's a part of the game. A straightforward Sans eases readability of short messages and looks better, feels more in place on e.g. inventory's captions.

 

[Veleda.980]

I thought so.
But you said Gill Sans was ugly. So, in more general terms, which Sans do you like?

I really don't like any of them. They're functional, that's all.

I
A UI is not a part of the World, it's a part of the game. A straightforward Sans eases readability of short messages and looks better, feels more in place on e.g. inventory's captions.

It is part of the world. The journal entries are even written in-character. It's your only connection to Geralt's possessions and to his activities as Witcher. To simultaneously think about him performing alchemy and look at something that reminds me of a road sign, that's jarring.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

I really don't like any of them. They're functional, that's all.

Ah, that's what I thought.
You're certainly entitled to your preferences and I won't waste time talking you into it. But to me that sounds like saying «Barroque music sucks» or «Jazz is ugly». The claim that Sans type is «functional and that's all» is objectively and demonstrably false though.

It is part of the world. The journal entries are even written in-character. It's your only connection to Geralt's possessions and to his activities as Witcher. To simultaneously think about him performing alchemy and look at something that reminds me of a road sign, that's jarring.

Yes, the journal could be seen as an in-game asset. But if you take that to heart then you'll be advocating cursive script. Are you? Don't tell me you haven't read a novel or article written in 1ts person PoV but set in Sans and it was off-putting and reminded you of road signs? This entire forum is set in Sans. Are you reminded of road signs whenever you read a post?

To warp this up, I'm glad REDs don't seem to share your take. This is one UI thing they got right.

I wouldn't call it harmonious. Gill Sans has a lot of quirks which is the whole point of humanistic designs: being less mechanical, more organic & humanistic. Oddly enough it also was the road font of Eastern Germany. While they were ahead of their time in choosing a humanistic font, I don't think that Gill Sans is quite right for road signage, mainly due to its closed forms.

Anyways, it was quite revolutionary at the time. It became a typical British font (just like the Underground alphabet, Johnstorn), and Rolls Royce uses it as their marketing brand font.

It's fine if you ask me, for a UI font it's just right.



Agreed. Like I said a UI is a modern invention that appeals for an open Sans face, considering it differently is a mistake in my opinion. Parachute's DIN is resolutely modern but also takes a simple, vintage approach. Its inspiration, Germany's DIN 1451 road font originally came from the Rail alphabet drawn on a geometric grid.
Trains were the first time people started to think about signage fonts for largescale/industrial uses. It all started with very geometric designs (which a lot of countries around the World are still stuck with) and modern fonts are simple, open humanistic design. UK's Transport font was a precursor in this domain and dates from 1957. A lot of countries in Europe use it too, e.g. Spain and Italy use an Ultra-Bold version of it (which is obviously bad for signage but who knows why they made this variant).

A UI is not a part of the World, it's a part of the game. A straightforward Sans eases readability of short messages and looks better, feels more in place on e.g. inventory's captions.

Well, regarding Gill Sans I specifically said «harmonious proportions», which to me look open, defined yet relaxed, having almost a breathing quality to them. Wonder if golden rations are at work here - might check what Bringhurst has to say about it. Gill Sans does have some formal problems, notably the lower case «a» issue.

It seems we have different tastes in type, which is perfectly fine. Appreciate your input. Keep it coming!

 

[Veleda.980]

Obviously I don't expect to find artistic script in a forum. I'm not immersed in another world here, I'm exchanging information and something functional and bland works for that. A game is different.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I like old style type faces in fantasy RPGs and adventure games. They seem fitting. For some futuristic games, modern fonts fit better

 

[Garrison72]

I like old style type faces in fantasy RPGs and adventure games. They seem fitting. For some futuristic games, modern fonts fit better

Agreed. This seems like common sense to me If you're trying to immerse the player.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

Agreed. This seems like common sense to me If you're trying to immerse the player.

That's just it.

It's not common sense, or rather it might be common sense and it thus illustrates how fallible common sense is. How clichés creep into it. Reasons have been given why it doesn't necessarily follow fantasy games should choose a serif. I remember a similar debate before Skyrim launched and thank goodness common sense didn't prevail then.

The claim of immersion breaking Sans is puzzling. You the player approach Novigrad on horse. A perfectly medieval setting stretches for miles. Suddenly the words «Free city of Novigrad. May, 1272» pop up. Don't tell me you take them as in-game?! You inrinctevly know they're not. That by definition breaks immersion for a split second no matter which type the words are set in. Historically accurate and Serif type call more attention upon themselves and thus in this situation could actually be seen as more jarring than low key Sans.

Everyone is entitled to their preferences and I'm not here to change their mind. People who really like type don't write the whole half of it off in absolute terms, no more than gourmands write Chinese or Italian off in absolute terms.

 

[Veleda.980]

"Immersion" is all about illusion. What breaks it is not the same for everyone. I can say I also didn't like the UI in Witcher 2 in other respects, like the big empty spaces. To other people that seems "clean." To me it's like a functional void which helped make alchemy seem like a chore rather than something fun. Again, it broke my imaginative experience of being in the world.

I think the modern font thing is mainly a design choice based on what's better for consoles, which is why you see it everywhere nowadays.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

Well, I don't quite agree that what breaks immersion is different for everyone or that performing alchemy tasks via the UI as opposed to, for example, Kingdom Come: Deliverance's approach, can ever be truly immersive, but that's a nuanced topic and a matter for another thread.

Yes, perhaps consoles have something to do with it. Then again, recent examples don't add up to that theory: Dark Souls 2(2014), Thief(2014), Lords of the fallen (2014), all on consoles and all using serif to great extent. On the other hand, Fable Anniversary (2014), available on consoles and soon on PC, adopts a mixed approach whereby HUD is set in sans but other UI aspects depicted as in-game get serif, akin to (2014) Divinity: Original Sin's take, and this game's not even out on consoles.

People who think every single sans on the face of the planet is ugly and bland will never accept them in TW3, which is understandable. But I reckon designers at CD Projekt really like type and have a broader taste for and deeper understanding of typography that allows them to be more flexible.

 

[Garrison72]

That's just it.

It's not common sense, or rather it might be common sense and it thus illustrates how fallible common sense is. How clichés creep into it. Reasons have been given why it doesn't necessarily follow fantasy games should choose a serif. I remember a similar debate before Skyrim launched and thank goodness common sense didn't prevail then.

The claim of immersion breaking Sans is puzzling. You the player approach Novigrad on horse. A perfectly medieval setting stretches for miles. Suddenly the words «Free city of Novigrad. May, 1272» pop up. Don't tell me you take them as in-game?! You inrinctevly know they're not. That by definition breaks immersion for a split second no matter which type the words are set in. Historically accurate and Serif type call more attention upon themselves and thus in this situation could actually be seen as more jarring than low key Sans.

Everyone is entitled to their preferences and I'm not here to change their mind. People who really like type don't write the whole half of it off in absolute terms, no more than gourmands write Chinese or Italian off in absolute terms.

Maybe immersion is the wrong term. But I like consistent design themes in games, and this includes the UI.

 

[adridu59]

@Jupiter on Mars As I said before, I haven’t read Bringhurst but I stumbled about this critic article. Also an interestic reaction over on Reddit. That really sheds some light on the context to which the book is so widely recommended to students.

"Immersion" is all about illusion. What breaks it is not the same for everyone. I can say I also didn't like the UI in Witcher 2 in other respects, like the big empty spaces. To other people that seems "clean." To me it's like a functional void which helped make alchemy seem like a chore rather than something fun. Again, it broke my imaginative experience of being in the world.

I think the modern font thing is mainly a design choice based on what's better for consoles, which is why you see it everywhere nowadays.

I should mention, Thief (2014) is for me a prime example of a game that utilized a serif font finely (they have used Adobe Jenson). But the screenshot posted earlier in the thread, hugh no. The font is wonky and clamped in the small inventory boxes, doesn’t fit with the whole UI concept.

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

@Jupiter on Mars As I said before, I haven’t read Bringhurst but I stumbled about this critic article. Also an interestic reaction over on Reddit. That really sheds some light on the context to which the book is so widely recommended to students.

Thanks.

At this point I cannot be bothered with Reddit but the critique, on the other hand, proved wonderful, remarkable reading. Magnificent article. Naturally, there's points of agreement and contention in there, too many to go into detail. Yes, Bringhurst has a modernist world view. It is fundamentally at odds with the post-modernist creed.

My own take is aesthetic virtues are neither entirely objective nor entirely subjective and with regard to the latter I claim to be aligned with Bringhurst. During the 90's, post-modernism raged across the cultural spectrum and eventually reached typography. The American designer David Carson caused quite a stir by violating virtually every single piece of advice Bringhurst could be said to offer, in magazines such as Beach Culture and, notably, Ray Gun. If you haven't already, check his work. It's an extreme form of post-modernism but it illustrates my point. Check whether it has aged well and contrast it with that of the contemporary British designer, Vaughan Oliver, a living genius (though not that great of a traditional typographer), whose work, though closer to fine art than to design, in my opinion remains unsurpassed to this day.

Look forward to reading your impressions.

 

[adridu59]

@Marcin Momot The fake emdash here makes me sad.























The dumb quotes also.