Actual main problems with Gwent [in-depth view]

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Actual main problems with Gwent [in-depth view]

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Preface.
Already posted this a long time ago in different iterations, nobody seems to care, but I like giving people insight information for educational purposes.

Problems:
  1. Lack of sophisticated abilities on the cards
  2. Ruined dynamic between opposing cards
  3. Broken cards and abilities
1. Lack of sophisticated abilities on the cards:

Of course, sophisticated and cool abilities are important in making gaming experience fun and providing players with puzzles to solve and decisions to make, which in turn makes the game skill based.

But that is not all there is to it...

See, in the traditional card games we all know, "removal" cards are very different: some destroy units with 3 strength or less, some with 5 or more, some destroy only specific type or "tribe" of units, some have a requirement from your side of the board. In Gwent though, every card simply deals "x" damage and destroys any unit, and this is where the problems begin... Going forward, I will refer to this as "simplicity".

2. Ruined dynamic between opposing cards:

"Ruined dynamic" in simple terms means "too much of a thing on one side compared to the other (opposite) side". Which means players on one side (with less stuff) don't have sufficient tools to deal with the players on the other side (with more stuff). While the are many examples which are all positioned at the different depths of the game's design (core -- game defining, harder to change; surface -- small area defining, easier to change) and all have a different level of impact, the core example of this is the dynamic between "engine" cards and "removal" cards:

In Gwent resources are very limited. You can play only 1 copy of a golden card (which would be horrible even in a game like MtG). But not only that, your starting hand size is 10 cards and you only draw 6 cards throughout the entire game. Going forward, I will refer to this as "environment".
None of the above is considered by the designer(s), so the "removal" heavily overwhelms "engines".
  1. If we look at the sheer numbers, the amount of "removal" cards is simply staggering, there are also no restrictions on how many "removal" cards you can put in a deck, then there is the "environment" and plus the "simplicity". 4 of these things create a situation where you have to play a deck full of "engine" cards or have no "engine" cards at all, because you can expect any "engine" card you play (because of "simplicity") any amount of times (because of abundance of "removal" cards and no deck restrictions) to be removed and for you to lose 10% percent of your resources (because of "environment", 10% is 1/10 of a maximum hand size), meaning you are better off playing cards which give you higher immediate value, unless you can match the amount of removal.
  2. While numbers are important, there is another thing a lot of people miss. Some decks revolve or could in theory revolve around a gold "engine" card. And because your ability to play gold cards is limited to 1 copy per card, the value resting on the shoulders of that specific gold "engine" card is extremely immense. Because of this "removal" cards could and usually do achieve even greater value when removing a gold "engine" card -- something which might not be obvious on the surface.

3. Broken cards and abilities:

Let's get to the simple stuff. Some major examples of card design:
  1. Poison is OP. It lets you remove any card as long as you can target it, it's way too versatile and universally good. The cards which provide poison are very cheap and due to the nature of how poison works -- universal. 2 bronze cards of 4 provision cost should not be able to remove 100 strength cards. Even worse, uncircumstantially and without any skill requirement. Another problem poison has is the fact that due to things mentioned above poison cards see a lot more play than the cards which are supposed to counter them. Purify and veil have very limited use, and the cards which provide them are very bad in all categories. Another example of a ruined dynamic between opposing cards.
  2. Geralt: Yrden is a great example of a horrible card. The effect is simply ridiculous, card has no counter-play and requires no skill to achieve the fullest extent of it's ability (which is only one). You can't call a card fair simply because it has a "deck cost" and "chance of not working". Just like giving player the ability to equip wallhack and aimbot, but with a downside of halving player's health, and the wallhack and aimbot having the 50% chance of not being applied at the start of every game, is not fair. Design of every card should be striving to make the card fair (among other things) in every game, not only 50%, while other 50% of players can suffer. Additional 2 problems are the fact that the game has only 2 rows in the first place, which makes it very difficult to play around the card, and the fact that a player has access to only 1 defender card and the staggering amount of "removal" cards push players towards placing all of their cards in 1 row. Another example of a ruined dynamic between opposing cards.

Solutions:
  1. Make sophisticated and cool abilities.
  2. Make "removal" situational and require skill to play. Consider making some "removal" being unable to target gold cards.
  3. Make the amount of "engines" equal to or slightly higher than the amount of "removal" for the average game by introducing a serious cost for running heavy "removal" (and "engine") decks, which would make it worth it to choose such a route but only if you know what you are doing. Make it creative.
  4. Rework poison.
  5. Rework Geralt: Yrden.
Afterword:

I perfectly well understand that none of the above will most likely ever get addressed, if it is even possible. This is simply a look at the game's design and it's faults.
 
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Sorry, but that is an elaborate way of saying "I lost to XY and that's why I think it's OP". Engines work in the game, there are plenty of decks that only include a few but don't go full-on engines.

Poison and Yrden are counters to greed. If you play super greedy and get punished, that doesn't mean the mechanic is bad, just that you greeded too much. If it wasn't easy to remove a 100 point engine, this would just dominate everything. They are also far from universal, Yrden is good against Dwarfs, poison not so much. I'm going to say that poison in the current meta won't do you many favours, Yrden might but it's still barely played.

There are also a lot of uses for purification and a lot of decks run those cards. Pellar is an excellent neutral that finds it's way in a lot of decks as a tech against defenders, poison, locks etc.
 
  1. Poison is OP. It lets you remove any card as long as you can target it, it's way too versatile and universally good. The cards which provide poison are very

Poison is practically irrelevant with current powercreep - it was somewhat of a problem...2 years ago, but not really.

OP are all broken uninteractive combos like Fucusya+Melusine, or other binary plays that win the game.

That is extremely lazy and boring design the team excels at for several last expansions.
 
Both Jeamapur and El.Zappo have valid points. I think it is hard to deny that Gwent is highly binary (a lot of answer or lose cards, as well as very rock-paper scissors type match ups). It is hard to deny that Gwent is very draw dependent (a high percentage of games are more decided by luck than by either quality of play or deck design). It is hard to deny that Gwent is highly uninteractive (significant points on deploy and other mechanisms that cannot be tactically prevented) -- and when it is interactive, those interactions are binary (totally neutralize or remove a card, usually by only a small handful of techniques).

On the other hand, as it stands now, Gwent absolutely depends upon very heavy removal tools to balance unendurable engines and game dominating powers. I would love to see the Heatwaves, Invocations, Philippas, and Yrdens out of the game. But this can only happen if 50 or more broken engines and combos are also removed.

I think the heart of the problem is that there is too much difference between the top cards and the "filler" cards. Most decks are centered around a small handful of very strong cards -- the others barely matter. People build decks around Brouvers or Vanadains -- no one cares about the Saskia Dragons, Fansesca Findabars, Ithlinne Aeglis, Barnabas Beckenbauers,Saesenthessis', Yarpin Zigrins, Ele'yas', Gabor Zigrins, Iorveths, or dozen's of other ST gold cards that might be useful support on occasion, but will never be core to the game. Fail to draw one more key card than your opponent and nothing else matters; you lose. Moreover, deck variety is limited to decks that can be built around one of these big point producing cards or combos.

A second, significant issue (maybe even more significant than extreme differences in card playing values) is the substantial number of remove or lose cards. First, they are binary: those who don't have or don't draw answers have little chance, while those who have answers need no innovation or creativity -- just Heatwave and problem solved. Of course, large numbers of remove or lose cards need massive amounts of heavy removal to remain balanced. Then that heavy removal forces players to use cards whose value cannot be denied by the removal -- large numbers of distributed points on deploy or cards that accrue value while safely protected in hand, in deck, or even in graveyard. And tactical interaction disappears because there is either nothing on the board to interact with or one is interacting after the massive point swing has occurred.

Changing the current trajectory of the game will not be trivial. But I think it is necessary for the game to remain vibrant and healthy.
 
The main problem of the game is printing random broken cards that are only enjoyable for hearthstone players. The best example of that is golden nekker: crazy value, crazy variance and immense amount of tempo ( so, against this abomination, a start on blue coin is basically forcing you to give up the round on the spot ).
This neutral card with aerondight and ring are creating a "lovely" meta where you push hard round 1, you push hard round 2 with the random combination given by the nekker and... hope for the best. No more agency for the players to understand the match-up and balance their resources, just a brainless rng slampoint.
Every single deck that plays these atrocities is a copy-paste. And i fear this is just the beginning..
If "gwentstone" is coming, i will probably leave the game.

Maybe they think that these changes will bring more casual players to the game or, at least, an adequate number to substitute a large amount of the ones who will behave like me if this clown fiesta persists.
 
From the way people write this, you would really expect Golden Nekker decks to be on top of the game, instead of low T2 borderline T3. GN decks are good, don't feel overpowered though. If you try playing them you will see that they put you into awkward spots a lot of the time. It's a neutral, so naturally, people tried them with every faction and it's indeed possible to create a GN deck for each faction.

If you look at the meta reports you will see that the game is in a good state, the only outliers are Ring of Favor because you basically have to put it into every deck killing devotion and Travelling Priestess a card that is obviously broken.

The only loser of this patch is NG, every other faction is represented in the top meta. And after Assimilate dominating the meta for a long time I'm not going to cry a river if they have to take a back seat for a while.
 
From the way people write this, you would really expect Golden Nekker decks to be on top of the game, instead of low T2 borderline T3. GN decks are good, don't feel overpowered though. If you try playing them you will see that they put you into awkward spots a lot of the time. It's a neutral, so naturally, people tried them with every faction and it's indeed possible to create a GN deck for each faction.

If you look at the meta reports you will see that the game is in a good state, the only outliers are Ring of Favor because you basically have to put it into every deck killing devotion and Travelling Priestess a card that is obviously broken.

The only loser of this patch is NG, every other faction is represented in the top meta. And after Assimilate dominating the meta for a long time I'm not going to cry a river if they have to take a back seat for a while.
Golden Nekker is a bad designed card ( probably the worst that Gwent has ever witnessed ) and the problem is not winning or losing, but how you are reaching that result. Knowing that the outcome is based on highroll/lowroll just isn't fun for me, if i want to turn my brain off i just log into Hearthstone.
Time ago they decided to remove leaders that were allowing you to make two plays in one turn, so why 2 for 1 is bad and 3 for 1 ( plus rng effect ) is good?

As i said, if this is the route they want to follow, i can only accept it. But this is so cringe and disappointing.
 
Golden Nekker is a bad designed card ( probably the worst that Gwent has ever witnessed ) and the problem is not winning or losing, but how you are reaching that result. Knowing that the outcome is based on highroll/lowroll just isn't fun for me, if i want to turn my brain off i just log into Hearthstone.
Time ago they decided to remove leaders that were allowing you to make two plays in one turn, so why 2 for 1 is bad and 3 for 1 ( plus rng effect ) is good?

As i said, if this is the route they want to follow, i can only accept it. But this is so cringe and disappointing.
The key to playing GN decks is to manage the RNG by thinning out the cards that you don't want to draw and only leaving the ones in the pool that you need. Also, a lot of those decks run cards that allow you to manipulate the order of the cards in the deck.

Sure, you can use it to high roll in R1 but if you are a clever opponent that can very much lead to him overextending in R1 and costing him the game. Lots of decks can push out massive amounts of tempo right now with cheap cards.

In other words, if Mr. Opponent turns his brains off while playing those decks it's often an easy win. I don't see a problem with that.
 
The key to playing GN decks is to manage the RNG by thinning out the cards that you don't want to draw and only leaving the ones in the pool that you need. Also, a lot of those decks run cards that allow you to manipulate the order of the cards in the deck.

Sure, you can use it to high roll in R1 but if you are a clever opponent that can very much lead to him overextending in R1 and costing him the game. Lots of decks can push out massive amounts of tempo right now with cheap cards.

In other words, if Mr. Opponent turns his brains off while playing those decks it's often an easy win. I don't see a problem with that.
"manage the rng" lol, i've already heard these words in many other card games. And it always ended in the same miserable way: the cards play for you. As an example, Legends of Runeterra was promising but they decided that discovering random cards of random value was a good idea, result? Gameplay ruined and skill ceiling under the floor, because you can't play against everything. To sum up, just hope he doesn't have a lucky answer.
One thing is a random ping from a NR engine ( which is manageable and sometimes ready to be optimised ), another one is the difference between a 15 and almost a 30 points nekker. And it happens all the time.
 
"manage the rng" lol, i've already heard these words in many other card games. And it always ended in the same miserable way: the cards play for you. As an example, Legends of Runeterra was promising but they decided that discovering random cards of random value was a good idea, result? Gameplay ruined and skill ceiling under the floor, because you can't play against everything. To sum up, just hope he doesn't have a lucky answer.
One thing is a random ping from a NR engine ( which is manageable and sometimes ready to be optimised ), another one is the difference between a 15 and almost a 30 points nekker. And it happens all the time.
Well happened to me yesterday. Massive GN first round, so then you just pass. He overextended and lost the game because he didn't have enough power left for the rest of the game since his best golds were already played. Even the current double GN doesn't help you much there.

The current TP deck uses insane amounts of random pings btw. It can have massive tempo in R1 and pull off the combo it's aiming for in R2 & R3, just saying. That's why TP is on top of the meta unlike GN.

The interaction with TP is also not random, the decks thins to zero or maybe 1-2 cards left and you have ample tools to manage the cards you draw. So the combo works every single game. Safe to say, too much RNG really is not the largest problem in Gwent right now.

If you are salty because you lose to GN decks, just play TP. You will win 9/10 games with that deck.
 
Well happened to me yesterday. Massive GN first round, so then you just pass. He overextended and lost the game because he didn't have enough power left for the rest of the game since his best golds were already played. Even the current double GN doesn't help you much there.

The current TP deck uses insane amounts of random pings btw. It can have massive tempo in R1 and pull off the combo it's aiming for in R2 & R3, just saying. That's why TP is on top of the meta unlike GN.

The interaction with TP is also not random, the decks thins to zero or maybe 1-2 cards left and you have ample tools to manage the cards you draw. So the combo works every single game. Safe to say, too much RNG really is not the largest problem in Gwent right now.

If you are salty because you lose to GN decks, just play TP. You will win 9/10 games with that deck.
You are missing the great scheme, once a broken card like priestess is nerfed it will be fine ( she is basically a finisher, the random pings are not so relevant. No one will play the combo in the middle of a turn ).
We have to consider that a lot of players decided to play gwent for two main reasons: very little rng and unique playstyle made of three turns, and this last detail adds a deep strategy aspect not existent in other card games.
If they start to introduce garbage like golden nekker and tempo-abusing tools like ring and aerondight, hoping that "hearthstone style players" will join, well..the game is over.

I'm just waiting for the next patch and, if the problem is not addressed, i guess i will search around to see if other games meet my expectations.
That's so sad.
 
Before reworking yrden and poisons. Rework these ridiculosly boosty and engine cards. Neutral & ST Poisons are not cheap
 
Hi guys,
Please you have to fix the leader ability set up. When I use it once, sometimes it gets "hooked" and when I try to click on a card, my cursor is "hooked" to the leader ability, so sometimes I use it twice without wanting it... Please unhook the leader ability clicking,
Thanks!
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Hi guys,
I think Golden Nekker card ruined the current game... it's too much.
Also consider the Ancient Vampire generator together with Arachas Queen its insane, I've had games with 5 ancient vampires on enemy side and its impossible to counter...
Have a nice day!
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I agree, cards like RoF and Golden Nekker have no place in Gwent.
Completely agree
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
I expect the next patch to focus on correcting the mistakes brought alongside the Forgotten Treasures update, as usual.

Start by fixing two cards that are very problematic, and the way to fix them is quite intuitive, in fact, its how i thought they worked when i first saw those cards:

-Travelling priestess - the charges this unit gains should be reset when this unit is replayed. If a player wants to build a whole deck around this (like they certainly did), its fair to get a ton of charges, but THIS CARD DOES NOT HAVE PATIENCE (which is the game mechanic associated with retaining effects for the duration of the match), so there's no logic why it retains its charges when its reused with necromancy or teleport or some other way.

-Magic Compass - the function of this card when used with 3 or less cards left in deck (which is what everyone aims for) should create 3 random choices, not ALL possible choices. That is absurd and obvious and such a big shot in the foot. Made specially ironic when its released on the same card drop as rune mage, which makes create choices go from 3 to 5... then magic compass just laughs in his face, with perfect versatility and insane point-provision ration. :giveup:

-Golden Nekker - i dont know how to fix it. And i have to admit i find it interesting and the possible combos it brings, but it's also a testament to how how the dev team regularly forgets their mistakes and ends up repeating them a couple of years later (we are delving back into multiple cards per turn state + neutral domination, which kills variety)
 
The matchmaking system is screwed and this is a huge factor.

You should not be able to come up against opponents that only have enough fights with 1 or 2 factions. When you yourself have 25+ fights with all 5 factions. Most of them also have completed the collection in one or two factions and literally only have the cards that can't be milled in the remaining factions. So actually fixing the machmakingsystem, doing this would exclude the 1 faction only profiles from the ladders for quite awhile as 75% of them only have cards for that one faction and have milled all other factions cards.

I've played for about 6 weeks now and I only have 56 legendary (800 scrap cost cards) and I've bought all the card packs aswell. And most if not all the 1 faction profiles would probably not spend money on it and even if they did it would still take a shit load of time before they'll have decent enough cards in all the other factions to be able to play games without getting steamrolled. At this point I still need quite a few legendary and epic cards for every faction. Before my matches doesn't have to rely as much on luck on my draws or the oppents draws to suck. As those who have 25+ with all factions mostly have completed their card collections, thus being able to synergies cards more efficiently then me as they have all the necessary cards where I might be missing 1 or more cards that would optimise most builds
 
And now we finally have a strong Nilfgaard deck with Aerondight, Nekker and Ring that can compete with everyone, ladder is infested by them. Crazy tempo plays, 2/3 highroll nekkers and they steal your win conditions randomly :)
Soldiers and tactics archetypes are left to themselves, but this received the best support. What a lovely deck to play against!
It must be fun a meta where a mill on steroids is dominating for months..
 
And now we finally have a strong Nilfgaard deck with Aerondight, Nekker and Ring that can compete with everyone, ladder is infested by them. Crazy tempo plays, 2/3 highroll nekkers and they steal your win conditions randomly :)
Soldiers and tactics archetypes are left to themselves, but this received the best support. What a lovely deck to play against!
It must be fun a meta where a mill on steroids is dominating for months..
Mill is dominating because of these neutral crazy cards that shouldn’t be in the game.
This whole expansion is a mess of nonsense Hearthstonish cards.
 
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