After Cyberpunk I hope CDPR reconsiders their push towards open world games...

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I don't believe that CDPR should focus on making open world games for their Triple A titles and big projects. I feel that their best strengths (writing and characters mostly) work best given visible boundaries and restrictions. The more open-world the game is, the more the overall story and characters suffer.

People play GTA not because they really care about what happens to the generic and replaceable criminals that always star in those games, but because of the unparalleled freedom through "emergent gameplay" that the series offers. The same is true of Fallout 4, which was widely regarded by most as perhaps the worst Fallout story thus far, yet what drew people in was the atmosphere of scavenging around in a post-apocalyptic wasteland that all Fallout games offer. What about Elder Scrolls? Does anyone even remember the name of the final boss for Skyrim? I remember when fellow students were hyping up Skyrim it was all to do with gameplay possiblities rather than the narrative. Pickpocketing entire towns was more engaging than progressing the main story. Do you see where I'm going with this? Open world games are played not for their writing, which is never their strength and in fact is usually their weakest point, but for the gameplay. The games that manage to do alright on both fronts (New Vegas, RDR2, Witcher 3) are rare for a reason.

I know I'm in the minority, but I was actually severely disappointed by Witcher 3's story. The entire game's main narrative essentially functions as a fetch quest for Ciri, where you chase after countless leads and scraps of information until you finally find her and reunite. The main antagonists - the titular Wild Hunt - were laughably forgettable. I highly doubt people even remembered that the final boss's name was Eredin. I know because I played a lot of Gwent and thereby knew all the Witcher characters by heart through countless repetition, but I'm pretty certain that for most players he was just some nameless moron in a spiky suit who went down faster and more embarrassingly than Imlerith. Hell he's even bleeding from wounds Crach inflicted upon him by the time Geralt manages to fight him, which only serves to make him look even more weak then he already is. When you do defeat him you're left wondering if the only reason Vesemir died at the earlier fight in Kaer Morhen was because he overdosed on swallow potion or something. The most praised antagonist of Witcher 3 (Gaunter) comes from a DLC. The most praised character and quest chain is the Bloody Baron which is just a side quest and side character. Besides Ciri you don't really end up caring much for any of the other main characters besides (possibly) Triss and Yenn, and if you played Witcher 1/2, Letho/Thaler/Roche (I'm still mad that they cut Iorveth and Saskia tbh).

Not only are open world games really hard to pull off a convincing and engaging main story in (oh we have to find Ciri - oh wait lemme beat a billion people at Gwent first!), but they are also technically ambitious to the point of insanity.

Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Witcher - these universes come with the built-in advantage of being sparsely populated due to the time periods and universes they are set in - comprised mostly of sprawling empty environments stuffed with the occasional monster and NPC, and "cities" with NPC counts that usually don't go over 30, nevermind 100. As soon as you try to make a project with a much more urban and technologically advanced setting like the Cyberpunk universe, the NPCs that you have to program, the cars that you have to assign routes to, the buildings and skyscrapers you have to create and fill - it becomes overwhelming in scope and scale, and Cyberpunk's glitchy and bug-filled launch is proof that CDPR bit off way more than they could chew.

Even GTA V - someone on reddit actually tried to manually calculate population NPC spawning density for Los Santos a while back:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gtaonline/comments/hfh5lf

Look at how green the map is (green meaning less than 5 NPCs). Even Rockstar isn't able to pull off massive NPC populations outside of limited and selected areas, even with the amount of extra money and expertise they have compared to CDPR. Compare the open world genre to something like Hitman, a game whose levels can be stuffed with hundreds of NPCs because they are linear levels that don't force the player to load into an entire world at once, with all the technical difficulties that would cause.

All this to say that I think CDPR does themselves a major disservice to continue chasing after the open world AAA trend. They work best with smaller, more linear areas (Thronebreaker, Witcher 2) under which they can give a laser focus to characters and story and (for Witcher 2) actually offer compelling choices. Unfortunately they still haven't managed to top themselves in terms of overall story changes after Witcher 2, but I think that if they remembered their roots and went back to their tried and true system (smaller levels that lead to other/different levels depending on your choices) rather than chasing after the open world trend, they would not only make better games but also maybe even break the constant cycle of death march crunching. I still think that if Cyberpunk had been Witcher 4 with its much reduced NPC population instead of Cyberpunk they would have pulled off another success, but I also don't want them to keep chasing this trend because, again, it focuses on things that aren't their strengths (minute-to-minute regular gameplay and systems).
 
For me TW3 worked quite well as open world game - partly also because it sort of slowly expanded its map. That way it never felt too overwhelming, even later when the whole map was accessible. For me slowly expanding the world together with the story definitely helped. TW3 actually convinced me that a great story is possible in an open world game (but that’s just my point of view, I get that you don‘t share it). Before TW3 I used to be more sceptical.

That being said, I would agree that open world can be very problematic for storytelling and I do enjoy less open games a lot (like Uncharted 4 - there’s still enough to explore here). But I‘m also happy if a game is a bit more linear and shorter (even 20-30 hours can be very exhausting for me sometimes).

In some cases it seems to me like developers or publishers think they have to turn their game into yet another open world game for success, even though it was obviously not meant to be one at first.

I didn‘t have that feeling yet with CP2077, but I‘m still at the beginning. We‘ll see. Anyhow, if CDPR choses to not make an open world next time I definitely wouldn’t object. But I‘m flexible in this matter.
 
I have to disagree imho the naild it. Creating a gigantic openworld and almost no loading screen. The problem is that with all the bugs at the lunch hardly anyone noticed it.

Also they pump lots of money and effrot to marketing and on E3 make mistake to show the date of premiere. I think that most players would have waited a year longer. We wait so long and ever more with all this delays. Maybe it was decision toward financial agreement with Xbox and theirs support over contracting Keanu Reeves. Who knows? But they make a real bad decission releasing game in "that" state, espescially on consoles. So everyone's expectations were way too high, too the point lots of ppl right now focus only on bad aspects of the game.

Overall story is a masterpiece with graphic and music, combat is average. But all this is ruined with all the bugs and crush during segments of the game.

Imho they make some dev mistakes, I got this feeling that diff teams develop various levels or segment of the world. And like Anthem maybe whole team just found out about some features on E3. That explain state of the game like now is unfinnish.

But compare GTAV is out of place cause this game is smaller, simplier and next to CP77 looks infalty. The same goes to RDR2 where graphic is maybe good but story and everthing else is just weak. And I like remind how this game was unplayable on Pc for half year after release. I'd like them to go with this world and solve all the bugs soon. And in the future deliver some dlc and maybe next game in the lore. If i have to be honest as polish gamer I'm not so hype for Witcher 4 or whatever code name it will be. This game just take me away and I still play it and enyojed on PC. Hope that it no take another 8+ years ...
 
I actually feel the exact opposite of this post. The highlights of CP2077 so far are the story and characters, as well as the world they built. The game is only suffering from a buggy launch, which will be fixed with time.

Open worlds can tell amazing stories so your argument falls flat. Just look to RDR1 and 2. The Witcher 3. Far Cry 3. Fallout New Vegas. Breath of the Wild. God of War 2018 is an open world game in a sense, it starts linear but opens up into these huge open zones. Point being that it is entirely possible to tell a great story with good writting and characters, and still have a game be open world. It is rare though as you said.

CDPR can do whatever they like with their next project, I would be open to anything they do. If it's an open world that would be cool, if it's a different approach, I'd be fine with that as well. I believe the only reason cp2077 suffered a buggy launch is just because they had to develop a lot of new tech they did not previously have from the witcher assets. Guns, recoil patterns, vehicles, etc. This must have been a huge challenge to develop all this new stuff within the timeframe they had, and also follow up their most acclaimed game. cp had a hard task ahead of itself, but that still doesn't excuse the state they released it in. Especially with some of the footage of crowds of civillians in night city being nowhere close in the final product. But that is besides the point of this post.

Edit: I would personally like them to explore the world of the witcher again. They are familiar with it, the fans love it... it would just make sense to return. This also might be easier from a technical standpoint because I assume they can fallback on a lot of assets used. I would love to return to the continent with a new witcher to play. There are so many potential more stories to be told.
 
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I'm a huge fan of open worlds - if done right. That little disclaimer is largely subjective of course.

And I cannot compare to prior products, I never played a Witcher game, only watched a portion of a Witcher 3 let's play, but it's long gone and not the same as playing yourself.

My personal stance currently is that I feel the open world may perhaps not be the issue because they built a strong foundation, and with a bit more work, could've "decorated" and done it well. With more work and the recent feedback, I assume that they can craft a well made open world for the next game in whatever setting it may take place and still have it as compelling world and story-telling tool.

But we will see how it goes and what they decide for the next follow-up game. Rest is largely speculation, but my personal preference remains that it would ideally be based in some form of open world you can relatively freely traverse.
 
I fully disagree with you. Also the name of Skyrim's main story villain is Alduin (how'd you forget such an amazing name?), and the name of the main villain from the Dragonborn DLC is Miraak (though he was a pawn of Hermeous Mora).
 
The one thing they should reconsider is hyping their game, saying "it's gold", people would have been ok with waiting if they didn't do all those thing... :smart:
 
I will say that the creation of Night City in as much as it was built is for me genuinely incredible and I am still blown away by it. The problem seems to be the life, soul and beating heart of the city is so far below the quality of it's construction that it's completely immersion breaking. It's clear where CDPR's strengths are but weaknesses exist to be turned into strengths and rather than retreating, I want to see them learn, grow, improve, salvage, correct and triumph with this game. Everyone will be better for it.
 
I don't believe that CDPR should focus on making open world games for their Triple A titles and big projects.

Same. It’s clearly not their alley. A hub based world would serve their story focus better, give them more creative room for gameplay systems, and save them from the burdens of creating an actually interesting a big singular map that poses problems of its own, as we’ve seen in CP and even with Witcher 3 (where the hubs were too large for the games benefit).

Although, it has to be said that ”open world” doesn’t necessarily mean a sandbox map. A hub map can be ”open” too, if it allows free traveling between the hubs, and that’s fine to have.
 
This works really well as an open world IMO. There is so much polish in place. Sure there are issues, but not very many with the world itself. Keep going CDPR
 
What I like about open-world games is organic game-play where you can become unhinged from the story to explore the world and get intimate with the scenery, the characters, the events shaping out your own characters' story-arc. But I love table-top RPGs (played CP along with Gurps/Shadowrun and many others 30 years ago). it's nice when the players help to drive the story. That said a restrictive guided story-plot in a great story-driven game is also very nice.

What's nice about CP 2077 is the cyberpunk genre hasn't been overly-exhausted like other game genres so it's very fresh and fun.
 
I don't believe that CDPR should focus on making open world games for their Triple A titles and big projects. I feel that their best strengths (writing and characters mostly) work best given visible boundaries and restrictions. The more open-world the game is, the more the overall story and characters suffer.

People play GTA not because they really care about what happens to the generic and replaceable criminals that always star in those games, but because of the unparalleled freedom through "emergent gameplay" that the series offers. The same is true of Fallout 4, which was widely regarded by most as perhaps the worst Fallout story thus far, yet what drew people in was the atmosphere of scavenging around in a post-apocalyptic wasteland that all Fallout games offer. What about Elder Scrolls? Does anyone even remember the name of the final boss for Skyrim? I remember when fellow students were hyping up Skyrim it was all to do with gameplay possiblities rather than the narrative. Pickpocketing entire towns was more engaging than progressing the main story. Do you see where I'm going with this? Open world games are played not for their writing, which is never their strength and in fact is usually their weakest point, but for the gameplay. The games that manage to do alright on both fronts (New Vegas, RDR2, Witcher 3) are rare for a reason.

I know I'm in the minority, but I was actually severely disappointed by Witcher 3's story. The entire game's main narrative essentially functions as a fetch quest for Ciri, where you chase after countless leads and scraps of information until you finally find her and reunite. The main antagonists - the titular Wild Hunt - were laughably forgettable. I highly doubt people even remembered that the final boss's name was Eredin. I know because I played a lot of Gwent and thereby knew all the Witcher characters by heart through countless repetition, but I'm pretty certain that for most players he was just some nameless moron in a spiky suit who went down faster and more embarrassingly than Imlerith. Hell he's even bleeding from wounds Crach inflicted upon him by the time Geralt manages to fight him, which only serves to make him look even more weak then he already is. When you do defeat him you're left wondering if the only reason Vesemir died at the earlier fight in Kaer Morhen was because he overdosed on swallow potion or something. The most praised antagonist of Witcher 3 (Gaunter) comes from a DLC. The most praised character and quest chain is the Bloody Baron which is just a side quest and side character. Besides Ciri you don't really end up caring much for any of the other main characters besides (possibly) Triss and Yenn, and if you played Witcher 1/2, Letho/Thaler/Roche (I'm still mad that they cut Iorveth and Saskia tbh).

Not only are open world games really hard to pull off a convincing and engaging main story in (oh we have to find Ciri - oh wait lemme beat a billion people at Gwent first!), but they are also technically ambitious to the point of insanity.

Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Witcher - these universes come with the built-in advantage of being sparsely populated due to the time periods and universes they are set in - comprised mostly of sprawling empty environments stuffed with the occasional monster and NPC, and "cities" with NPC counts that usually don't go over 30, nevermind 100. As soon as you try to make a project with a much more urban and technologically advanced setting like the Cyberpunk universe, the NPCs that you have to program, the cars that you have to assign routes to, the buildings and skyscrapers you have to create and fill - it becomes overwhelming in scope and scale, and Cyberpunk's glitchy and bug-filled launch is proof that CDPR bit off way more than they could chew.

Even GTA V - someone on reddit actually tried to manually calculate population NPC spawning density for Los Santos a while back:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gtaonline/comments/hfh5lf

Look at how green the map is (green meaning less than 5 NPCs). Even Rockstar isn't able to pull off massive NPC populations outside of limited and selected areas, even with the amount of extra money and expertise they have compared to CDPR. Compare the open world genre to something like Hitman, a game whose levels can be stuffed with hundreds of NPCs because they are linear levels that don't force the player to load into an entire world at once, with all the technical difficulties that would cause.

All this to say that I think CDPR does themselves a major disservice to continue chasing after the open world AAA trend. They work best with smaller, more linear areas (Thronebreaker, Witcher 2) under which they can give a laser focus to characters and story and (for Witcher 2) actually offer compelling choices. Unfortunately they still haven't managed to top themselves in terms of overall story changes after Witcher 2, but I think that if they remembered their roots and went back to their tried and true system (smaller levels that lead to other/different levels depending on your choices) rather than chasing after the open world trend, they would not only make better games but also maybe even break the constant cycle of death march crunching. I still think that if Cyberpunk had been Witcher 4 with its much reduced NPC population instead of Cyberpunk they would have pulled off another success, but I also don't want them to keep chasing this trend because, again, it focuses on things that aren't their strengths (minute-to-minute regular gameplay and systems).
I feel like they could make a good open-world but they need to make sure that they aren't over promising and the main features that make the game good are added.Aside from performance issues fromwhat ive read on here and reddit people are mostly mad that the game didnt have the features they promised and that the city felt dead.
 
The open world in The Witcher 3 is a set dressing for stories and quests to take place. It doesn't handle many systems, and it doesn't need to. In a modern and futuristic open world, you need a basic city simulation to add believability to the open world.
This is what I want to say about Cyberpunk its complex and sadly they failed in some of those complex systems that make the city a city. I keep referring to GTA because GTA has mastered that if they can get some ideas from them mix them up and adapt to Cyberpunk then they got themselves a good city thats fun to explore and interact with.
 
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I disagree, i enjoy their open worlds. However the Cyberpunk story presented to us has no business being in an open world game. The story is very very linear with almost no choice.
You know I would not care about customising car, and thing like that if there was more content.
Choice are meaningless no consequence, romance is the same, I don't even get the point of those 10 second sex scene it is like that for every part of the game sadly.

I just want to hear from them that they going to give us all the content that has been cut from the game.
I get that this is not GTA6 but come on, what a waste this game is right now.
 
Before I begin my replies I would just like to note that it's funny I can automatically tell who has and hasn't read my post based off of counter-arguments that I already addressed in opening the thread. I mean c'mon guys if you're going to reply at least read the full thing before you do.

I fully disagree with you. Also the name of Skyrim's main story villain is Alduin (how'd you forget such an amazing name?), and the name of the main villain from the Dragonborn DLC is Miraak (though he was a pawn of Hermeous Mora).

Ok but just remember that most people didn't finish Skyrim's main quest line OR Witcher 3's main quest line. The reality is that most people were just fooling around with gameplay until they had enough, rather than paying attention to lore or story. You are the exception to the rule rather than the actual rule. CDPR themselves in trying to justify Cyberpunk's brief length mentioned that the majority never even saw the ending of Witcher 3.

I actually feel the exact opposite of this post. The highlights of CP2077 so far are the story and characters, as well as the world they built. The game is only suffering from a buggy launch, which will be fixed with time.

Open worlds can tell amazing stories so your argument falls flat. Just look to RDR1 and 2. The Witcher 3. Far Cry 3. Fallout New Vegas. Breath of the Wild. God of War 2018 is an open world game in a sense, it starts linear but opens up into these huge open zones. Point being that it is entirely possible to tell a great story with good writting and characters, and still have a game be open world. It is rare though as you said.

GOW was not open world. Breath of the Wild - again no one praises Breath of the Wild for its story. Story in Zelda games all follow the repetitive path - find equipment to beat dungeons to beat bosses to eventually find and rescue Zelda from Ganon. It's not groundbreaking or even that interesting. Witcher 3 was already mentioned in my initial post but I also pointed out that it was actually a step down from Witcher 2 in terms of both story and choices. RDR and New Vegas - also mentioned in my post as rare exceptions. Even then the open world still messes severely with the pacing due to all the miscellaneous minigames and side stuff you can do. You're compelled to find Ciri in Witcher 3 but if you're a completionist it will literally take you 60+ hours of fetching pans for people and Gwent just to catch up to her, thereby ruining all immersion. Likewise in Cyberpunk you are on a deadline as Johnny's psyche is merging into you but you feel no urgency because in-between main missions you're off scuba diving with Judy or something. In RDR you're off playing poker or whatever.

I just don't see the point in creating these massive spaces that are not only technically demanding and cause bugs and problems but also don't do a good job of focusing the story. Much of Cyberpunk's story segments are even outright linear and already on railroads - you are on rails for the heist, when Takemura picks you up from the landfill, during all ending sequences, during Johnny's flashbacks - what is the point of texturing and animating NPC #2359 located 3 miles away when it serves no purpose for the plot? Mass Effect is an example of a game that can make an entire galaxy feel alive through limited and closed off locations.

So for you Witcher 3 was not open world ? :think:
Right what is the Witcher 3 then?

I already mentioned Witcher 3. I pointed out that it was a rare exception but I also pointed out that it was much more technically feasible since much of the environment is just empty landscape dotted with a few monsters requiring few buildings/cars/NPCs/etc., and that even then the story was actually a downgrade from 2's complexity and choices (I would even say it was a downgrade in terms of maturity because Ciri is basically an angel no one wants to hurt and never does anything really wrong so there's no real gray area for the main plot and the only people who get the bad ending where Ciri dies are trolls or completionists).

The open world in The Witcher 3 is a set dressing for stories and quests to take place. It doesn't handle many systems, and it doesn't need to. In a modern and futuristic open world, you need a basic city simulation to add believability to the open world.

YES exactly. Take the police system in Cyberpunk - you shoot someone from 1000 miles away on a roof and the cops start literally teleporting into the area to kill you. You can look up videos of this happening if you don't believe me. Obviously it would have made more sense if they dropped from helicopters and a whole chase/pursuit system was built in but CDPR was already stretching the technical limits of both consoles and PC. If CDPR made more linear levels instead of forcibly rendering everything simultaneously they could have done a better job.
 

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Before I begin my replies I would just like to note that it's funny I can automatically tell who has and hasn't read my post based off of counter-arguments that I already addressed in opening the thread. I mean c'mon guys if you're going to reply at least read the full thing before you do.



Ok but just remember that most people didn't finish Skyrim's main quest line OR Witcher 3's main quest line. The reality is that most people were just fooling around with gameplay until they had enough, rather than paying attention to lore or story. You are the exception to the rule rather than the actual rule. CDPR themselves in trying to justify Cyberpunk's brief length mentioned that the majority never even saw the ending of Witcher 3.



GOW was not open world. Breath of the Wild - again no one praises Breath of the Wild for its story. Story in Zelda games all follow the repetitive path - find equipment to beat dungeons to beat bosses to eventually find and rescue Zelda from Ganon. It's not groundbreaking or even that interesting. Witcher 3 was already mentioned in my initial post but I also pointed out that it was actually a step down from Witcher 2 in terms of both story and choices. RDR and New Vegas - also mentioned in my post as rare exceptions. Even then the open world still messes severely with the pacing due to all the miscellaneous minigames and side stuff you can do. You're compelled to find Ciri in Witcher 3 but if you're a completionist it will literally take you 60+ hours of fetching pans for people and Gwent just to catch up to her, thereby ruining all immersion. Likewise in Cyberpunk you are on a deadline as Johnny's psyche is merging into you but you feel no urgency because in-between main missions you're off scuba diving with Judy or something. In RDR you're off playing poker or whatever.

I just don't see the point in creating these massive spaces that are not only technically demanding and cause bugs and problems but also don't do a good job of focusing the story. Much of Cyberpunk's story segments are even outright linear and already on railroads - you are on rails for the heist, when Takemura picks you up from the landfill, during all ending sequences, during Johnny's flashbacks - what is the point of texturing and animating NPC #2359 located 3 miles away when it serves no purpose for the plot? Mass Effect is an example of a game that can make an entire galaxy feel alive through limited and closed off locations.




I already mentioned Witcher 3. I pointed out that it was a rare exception but I also pointed out that it was much more technically feasible since much of the environment is just empty landscape dotted with a few monsters requiring few buildings/cars/NPCs/etc., and that even then the story was actually a downgrade from 2's complexity and choices (I would even say it was a downgrade in terms of maturity because Ciri is basically an angel no one wants to hurt and never does anything really wrong so there's no real gray area for the main plot and the only people who get the bad ending where Ciri dies are trolls or completionists).



YES exactly. Take the police system in Cyberpunk - you shoot someone from 1000 miles away on a roof and the cops start literally teleporting into the area to kill you. You can look up videos of this happening if you don't believe me. Obviously it would have made more sense if they dropped from helicopters and a whole chase/pursuit system was built in but CDPR was already stretching the technical limits of both consoles and PC. If CDPR made more linear levels instead of forcibly rendering everything simultaneously they could have done a better job.
Completely disagree.
Aside from the obvious where they have already done open world with a well written story (Witcher 3) I have no issue with this game so far. The game doesn't need to be linear, the main story is there when you are ready to take that on....why would you want to be forced into one or the other. I liked the witcher for that reason, it didn't make the story any less relevant. If this game was linear I probably wouldn't be playing it because the appeal for me was the WORLD OF CYBERPUNK. you cannot create that immersion in a linear story and I imagine the creator Mike felt this was necessary or he wouldn't have signed on and rightfully so. At the same time if you want to focus on the story and check out then that's fine. I'm still not seeing any valid reason that you've pointed to why they should "reconsider". If the game wasn't done well I'd agree but their first time into an FPS RPG and as someone who played GTA ands Skyrim and at times found them to be a chore I'd say CDPR is doing just fine. In fact they made the right call in making the game more condensed vs a larger map.
 
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