Here I go again...
I never addressed simplification as a good thing.
I never addressed that complication is either a good or a bad thing.
I addressed that meaningless complications that only serves the purpose of prolonging a process and add grind value is bad.
Just because person A like something and person B dislike something that doesn't mean it is good or bad. Tell me how looting and using alcohol add in any way value to the existing alchemy in TW 1 except it "looks and feels cool".
Moving on, you (and many other) only address why W2 alchemy was bad and inferior to W1 in all areas when this in fact is a lie. W2 added negative effects of potions which created strategy on which potion to use. It also made so that no potion is useless as sometimes you might prefer a weaker one with no negative effects over a stronger one. Also it added alchemy tree which is something W1 didn't have to future make it "fleshed" out. This is also alchemy not just how you make potions and oils.
The only thing that TW 1 did better in objective non-grinding way, was the additional substances and the possibility to experiment (which in my previous reply, state that this need to be re-done to avoid people just going to google) and that's what we should take from TW 1 alchemy, so that new people don't find it annoying and time consuming but on the same time reward players who want to go further in depth with alchemy.
This is complexity, not just having random shit as a necessary component to make a bottle of Swallow.
Also be careful when you are referring to atmosphere and immersion as this is different for every human being and what you find atmospheric doesn't necessary mean that the next one does.
It wasn't a nuisance but it was unimportant. What's the point with having different types of alcohol if everything is just turned into White Gull? The core products serves no other purpose than to prolong the exact same outcome and increase grinding. With White Gull it doesn't matter if you have a low class alcohol or a high class alcohol, what only matters is the number of ingredients and how much time you are willing to invest. And again, it fills up your inventory with a lot of random items that will be more of a inconvenience for players than anything else.
If you want alcohol that serves a purpose in The Witcher we really need to put on a thinking cap on what sort of purpose this could be and not just assume that it was perfect in W1 and broken in W2 because that was not the case.
Witcher 1 alchemy was far from perfect, Witcher 2 was also far from perfect but at least they removed the pointless grinding and all extra content that was necessary for potion making. However let's end this on a high note (as I hate going back to topics) with a couple of ideas that actually serves a purpose.
What we really want is a alchemy system similar to TW 2, where you can with talent points invest to gain additional or different benefits from using additional substances in your potion (as well as before eliminating negative effects) +1 Convenient and Complexity!
Introducing alcohol in a easily accessible manner like going to inns and buying from merchant (after all you don't make potions out of cheap beer by the drunkard outside) with then the possibility that said alcohols can further improve potions (but maybe other effects to differentiate them from the additional substances you find in the wild), however again make this not mandatory so people can explore and craft base potions in peace if they so like. +1 Convenient, Complexity and Drunkenness!
Then with additional substances, alcohol that serves a purpose both as bribing NPC, drunk mini-thingies as well as adding complexity to alchemy (not just more inconvenience) and talent points in the tree you can really experiment yourself in how to make your build unique and different from all other alchemy builds as well as being greatly stronger than other non-alchemy builds in that specific area.
Also it might have a quite natural transition on players increasing the difficulty setting. On easy regular base potions is enough, on Normal perhaps you need to invest some talent points to make them better, on hard you better get all accessible components to experiment and make your potions as good as possible. Nice and easy transaction which also is a more fluid level to let people become better at the game.
Just as an example.
If you read my reply you shouldn't have made that assumption. Anyway to make it even clearer.OndrexCZ said:
I never addressed simplification as a good thing.
I never addressed that complication is either a good or a bad thing.
I addressed that meaningless complications that only serves the purpose of prolonging a process and add grind value is bad.
Just because person A like something and person B dislike something that doesn't mean it is good or bad. Tell me how looting and using alcohol add in any way value to the existing alchemy in TW 1 except it "looks and feels cool".
Moving on, you (and many other) only address why W2 alchemy was bad and inferior to W1 in all areas when this in fact is a lie. W2 added negative effects of potions which created strategy on which potion to use. It also made so that no potion is useless as sometimes you might prefer a weaker one with no negative effects over a stronger one. Also it added alchemy tree which is something W1 didn't have to future make it "fleshed" out. This is also alchemy not just how you make potions and oils.
The only thing that TW 1 did better in objective non-grinding way, was the additional substances and the possibility to experiment (which in my previous reply, state that this need to be re-done to avoid people just going to google) and that's what we should take from TW 1 alchemy, so that new people don't find it annoying and time consuming but on the same time reward players who want to go further in depth with alchemy.
This is complexity, not just having random shit as a necessary component to make a bottle of Swallow.
I have nothing against if people want to add alcohol as a method to increase the atmosphere, though this is something you can manage and do in a hundred different ways that doesn't make Alchemy a drag for both new and old players and seeing this topic was about adding mechanics into potion making that's what I addressed here and not whether we should add these items for atmosphere and immersion.OndrexCZ said:
Also be careful when you are referring to atmosphere and immersion as this is different for every human being and what you find atmospheric doesn't necessary mean that the next one does.
It wasn't a nuisance but it was unimportant. What's the point with having different types of alcohol if everything is just turned into White Gull? The core products serves no other purpose than to prolong the exact same outcome and increase grinding. With White Gull it doesn't matter if you have a low class alcohol or a high class alcohol, what only matters is the number of ingredients and how much time you are willing to invest. And again, it fills up your inventory with a lot of random items that will be more of a inconvenience for players than anything else.
If you want alcohol that serves a purpose in The Witcher we really need to put on a thinking cap on what sort of purpose this could be and not just assume that it was perfect in W1 and broken in W2 because that was not the case.
Witcher 1 alchemy was far from perfect, Witcher 2 was also far from perfect but at least they removed the pointless grinding and all extra content that was necessary for potion making. However let's end this on a high note (as I hate going back to topics) with a couple of ideas that actually serves a purpose.
What we really want is a alchemy system similar to TW 2, where you can with talent points invest to gain additional or different benefits from using additional substances in your potion (as well as before eliminating negative effects) +1 Convenient and Complexity!
Introducing alcohol in a easily accessible manner like going to inns and buying from merchant (after all you don't make potions out of cheap beer by the drunkard outside) with then the possibility that said alcohols can further improve potions (but maybe other effects to differentiate them from the additional substances you find in the wild), however again make this not mandatory so people can explore and craft base potions in peace if they so like. +1 Convenient, Complexity and Drunkenness!
Then with additional substances, alcohol that serves a purpose both as bribing NPC, drunk mini-thingies as well as adding complexity to alchemy (not just more inconvenience) and talent points in the tree you can really experiment yourself in how to make your build unique and different from all other alchemy builds as well as being greatly stronger than other non-alchemy builds in that specific area.
Also it might have a quite natural transition on players increasing the difficulty setting. On easy regular base potions is enough, on Normal perhaps you need to invest some talent points to make them better, on hard you better get all accessible components to experiment and make your potions as good as possible. Nice and easy transaction which also is a more fluid level to let people become better at the game.
Just as an example.
Make no mistake, Alchemy as a whole was better in TW1.
However...
In TW1 alcohol was always the bottleneck. You had practically all the ingredients you could ever need, but you had to hunt down the liquor first (you could always buy it of course, as there was little other use for your money anyway).
In TW2 the ingredients themselves were the limiting factor on what you could brew - and some were quite hard to find in copious amounts.
Frankly, I found it much more interesting to wander the Flotsam forest looking for Scleroderm mushrooms than rummage through old people's closets in Vizima in search of booze.
What I hope for is that CDPR manages to combine the good elements of both systems and then add something new. I don't want to simply go back to TW1. It was better, but not in every aspect.
However...
In TW1 alcohol was always the bottleneck. You had practically all the ingredients you could ever need, but you had to hunt down the liquor first (you could always buy it of course, as there was little other use for your money anyway).
In TW2 the ingredients themselves were the limiting factor on what you could brew - and some were quite hard to find in copious amounts.
Frankly, I found it much more interesting to wander the Flotsam forest looking for Scleroderm mushrooms than rummage through old people's closets in Vizima in search of booze.
What I hope for is that CDPR manages to combine the good elements of both systems and then add something new. I don't want to simply go back to TW1. It was better, but not in every aspect.
As much as I liked buying the liquor in TW1, this is spot on. And if we are to strive for a more realistic approach, should Geralt really be carrying cases of beer and wine in his saddle? So maybe we have booze, but not for alchemy.Caerdon said:
I also liked more the inventory from 1, it didn´t feel so much like the usual extradimensional space from games. About alchemy, I liked alcohol as a bottleneck, thus you had to plan ahead for what you needed. I liked that you couldn´t take potions in combat in 2, and also the negative effects, but could have done without going in meditation everytime.Eldanon said:
I too agree with your points here. Just to add: I enjoyed the level of complexity of W1 alchemy in comparison with W2.Caerdon said:
To OP and for those who mentioned the alcohol as being the most logical way to provide bottles: I believe 'canonically' (and as shown in both W1 CGI and W2) Geralt carries with him a small chest containing his vials and bottles anyway - though this would be carried on his horse.
I would like if this time, the drink type influences the potency of potions or the time their effects lasts or can be activated, you know, quality in general.
This would solve the problem of having alcohol realistically accesible but still keep it important, since you could make a potion out most heavy alcohol drinks but it wouldnt be very powerful, and then if you find a really vauable high quality alcoholic drink you could save it, or dedicate it only to your most precious potion, or a life saving one.
Alcohol or potions bases need to come back for me, but CDPRED must not spoil the opportunity to make its effect more complex and relevant, and to help add a much needed variety.
This would solve the problem of having alcohol realistically accesible but still keep it important, since you could make a potion out most heavy alcohol drinks but it wouldnt be very powerful, and then if you find a really vauable high quality alcoholic drink you could save it, or dedicate it only to your most precious potion, or a life saving one.
Alcohol or potions bases need to come back for me, but CDPRED must not spoil the opportunity to make its effect more complex and relevant, and to help add a much needed variety.
I'm confident that in reality the only thing that makes me play through a game again and again is the atmosphere. If alcohol can add to that, then I'd like to have it. If not, then it is obsolete.
I agree- I hate the idea of a mechanic which relies on you having to be OCD about checking every building, what a pain.Caerdon said:
I don't really care to be honest. Only thing I care about is for Geralt to get wasted again.
Yes. alchemy in TW1 was more "logical" and added flavor to the world, as other stated just by having different kinds of alcohol hinting at the different parts of the world.
What irked me the most was the rather cumbersome system of mixing them (the EE did make it a little better though with sorting).
Having said that, alchemy in TW2 was NOT an afterthought, especially since a sword/alchemy build was the most powerful single-target boss-destroying build out there, so much so that CDPR did limit the droprates of certain mutagens to balance it back out without altering the skilltree.
People asking about sword/magic builds just don't know about the power of alchemy and one-shotting almost all bosses in the game to the point where
What irked me the most was the rather cumbersome system of mixing them (the EE did make it a little better though with sorting).
Having said that, alchemy in TW2 was NOT an afterthought, especially since a sword/alchemy build was the most powerful single-target boss-destroying build out there, so much so that CDPR did limit the droprates of certain mutagens to balance it back out without altering the skilltree.
People asking about sword/magic builds just don't know about the power of alchemy and one-shotting almost all bosses in the game to the point where
the game glitches out if you one-shotted the dragon before the next phase of the fight started
To address the thieving thing.
Around my third or fourth play through of TW1 I was just fed up with stealing from decent people. And you know what? I stopped doing it. I ended up with less junk in my inventory, more time on my hand and not significantly less money.
Actually I created an alchemy build for myself after that (although it does not exist officially). Yes, I purchased alcohol (and powder and fat) every time I had the opportunity, and yes, I brew potions, mixed oils and crafted bombs all the time.
It can be done.
Around my third or fourth play through of TW1 I was just fed up with stealing from decent people. And you know what? I stopped doing it. I ended up with less junk in my inventory, more time on my hand and not significantly less money.
Actually I created an alchemy build for myself after that (although it does not exist officially). Yes, I purchased alcohol (and powder and fat) every time I had the opportunity, and yes, I brew potions, mixed oils and crafted bombs all the time.
It can be done.
That is one potential solution for campfire meditation. A thought that just came to my mind while reading your post on this subject - Implement it so Geralt can make camp & build a fire anywhere the player chooses. Within reason of course / having exceptions depending on location.
Looking at screen shots thus far, Particularly Geralt's horse, you can see what appears to be sleep, storage,supply gear that he has on his mount. Now, these details could be purely for aesthetic reasons only, although I see no reason why they could not play some minor role gameplay-wise like we are discussing.
On-Topic : As far as Alchemy goes, Personally , I would love if the complexity of witcher 1 were to return in witcher 3. I am not asking nor expecting a copy & paste job per se either. I would like to point out since I have not seen many other fans/posters bring up this point and that is this time around we are going to be in an open world.
Anyone who has any experience with open world/sand box style games will know that small additions and attention to detail can go an extraordinarily long way in grabbing the player and immersing them into the world. I for one really hope that witcher 3 has rare,locational specific ingredients to be explored,sought after and found.
Some players may find seeking herbs & plants to be 'too grindy' but for me I love it. Alcohols in the first game and the way alchemy was structured is my personal preference an I would love for something similar to be added in W3.
I think having this added "complexity" can only help,especially now that we are going to be exploring an open world in the Witcher universe for the very first time. Over simplifying and/or removing previous gameplay elements is not necessarily the way to go IMO. Unless said systems were broken or in need of major overhauls.
Options and player choice.
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I too vote for a more TW1-like alchemy-system. Not only was the alcohol-requirement somewhat limiting the pots you could create and therefore made you aware of "what you do" ( to clarify: I like to play my witcher-games on hard difficulties, so I do need pots, also I want them to be most effective. However, when I can just collect flowers and make a potion without even thinking about the possible consequences of using resources for one pot instead of another, it makes alchemy rather useless)
on the other hand it's also adding some sort of logic into the alchemy-system itself. You just need some sort of fluid to make something you can drink - same issue for oils and stuff alike.
so yes please, add the TW1-alchemy-items again : )
Cheers
Pargulan
on the other hand it's also adding some sort of logic into the alchemy-system itself. You just need some sort of fluid to make something you can drink - same issue for oils and stuff alike.
so yes please, add the TW1-alchemy-items again : )
Cheers
Pargulan
I agree with more complex alchemical brewing like TW1. but there was also a major improvement regarding alchemy in TW2, drinking animations and the idea of preparing for combat. however since you mentioned about oils, I think it would be much better if their effects fade out depending on sword hits instead of time.